that we should enter into negotiations with the russian federation regarding new borders, and they will sometimes not agree to it, because they will say, in finland, 10% of the territory goes, no, wait, that was, that, that's a completely different reality, that was before of the second world war, let's talk about the borders, in the 75th year, in the 75th year, the khelkhinsky treaty was signed, the treaty on the inviolability of the borders in europe was signed, in which. yes, in the 39th year, when they took away, there was a completely different reality, then the borders were divided, well excuse me, after the second world war, poland was given part of germany to odar, they took gdańsk, germany took köningsberg and so on, that is, it is a completely different situation now, so we must proceed from the fact that we should first of all have weapons and guarantees, yes, the fact that now the negotiations on the diplomatic line are going on successfully, at least

what we need now, listen , well, they don't even demand to give up taiwan officially, you say, like , we'll have to, well, the americans are there, they no do the chinese say there, they don't give up taiwan, the americans don't say, give up forever, it was fixed, it was fixed in 72, then kissinger, came up with a rather tricky formula, and a tricky formula, what it looked like, they so you , well, simple. song, they said that, if so , to paraphrase , the chinese live on the territory of taiwan, the chinese also live on the territory of china, they are not against each other, period, and the united states do not object to this, so such a formula was determined , and in fact, taiwan, it seems to exist as a state, it seems to not exist, not recognized as a state, and it was, this was a strategic

task so that then, then taiwan was instead of china in the un security council, in fact, then they threw it out of and from the un and the security council from the un, then china was brought in, but there was an agreement in 1972 that you would not touch taiwan, yes, because this is actually based on such a tricky formula that kissenger also invented, the first thing with which i do not agree, what our government says, and it is wrong, security no one will give us any, i mean these agreements, which are called security guarantees, they are not like that in essence, they are good agreements, they please us, what should such an agreement look like with any of the countries, with britain, first literally, this is actually the vilin summit, it was a statement of the group of seven, they give assurances, that means there were assurances and assurances and help, somehow, that is, there is no word about guarantees at all, and therefore it is a lie and one should not use such...

words as a security guarantee, it is more correct to say a guarantee of providing security assistance, that would be correct, the second point, there can be no security guarantees as long as russia is a nuclear state, we do not have nuclear weapons, or someone does not cover us with a nuclear umbrella, then this is exactly what we want, to go to nato, regarding borders and the possibility of joining nato, last week kurt walker wrote a very cool article, and he actually interpreted the fifth article of the washington treaty on collective security, on collective response, in an innovative way, he says: it does not immediately bind us , come on help by our, well, our troops, yes , and now we give ukraine everything that we would give to our allies, and therefore we can accept ukraine as soon as possible, which will not lead to a war with the russian federation and will not require us to fight for ukraine, we will provide ukraine with everything we can find, maybe we will expand the aid, and there are very good ideas, by the way, the air defense systems that are located on the... territory of nato countries, but they will

shoot down everything that flies to ukrainian cities, the same air force, nato member countries can, well, plus, demining the black sea of these routes, and plus, what is very important for us is to ensure freedom of navigation, in fact, so that the flotillas of our partners protect our trade, that is, theoretically it is possible, but it is necessary to overcome, again, i return, there is a person named : sullivan , who is the national security adviser of the united states, he forms the strategy, he is the most important, let's say yes, and no, then he influences, but formally he prepares the strategy, and he has these red lines, and he turned out to be wrong every time he is any implemented a strategy in russia , let's remember, park russia, yes, what can you do not, not touch it, deal with chinese things, did not work out, stop russia so that it does not attack ukraine before the day of alienation, did not work out, give...

yes yes weapons, so that the russians would understand that they could not do anything and go to negotiations, it did not work, let's say it like this, and this strategy did not work either, well, by and large , they gave us weapons only for certain... operations, but not that we win quickly, so this is the most important thing, well, look, he failed, immediately blinkin rose in his background, and blinkin started traveling the world, blinkin started negotiating, it's two wings, it's two wings, i'm right, i understand, two wings, so biden moved a little bit there, his influence decreased , as they write, yes , and blinkin increased, on the contrary, it did not decrease , because of course, the first point, in sullivan's file there is also israel, there is also taiwan, and many other things, this is the first, the second, the director mentioned tsru, an extremely important figure that you remember, was also thai she gave signals several times in ukraine and there , now he is in qatar talking there with hostages and in order not to provoke this

conflict, that is, these people who make decisions, but in fact the strategy is formed by sullivan and he is not in the coordinate system decreased in influence, and of course , biden himself has convictions, but he is not , let's say, a person who just entered politics, he already ate the dog there, of course, and he has certain ones, let's say , well, from his experience of 40 years, excuse me, he is at the same time with with the chinese, with the koreans, yes, these are the scandals now with the chinese, mr. kissinger was actually proposing that ukraine partially join nato, he said that i was wrong, although nato is not without sin and it is russia on the right, and here by the way, by the way discussions that we talked about, we talked about the fact that ukraine is important from an ideological, historical, and other point of view. in international relations, there is such a concept as securitization, that is, we take some problem and bring it to the level of national security, for example, climate, climate change, this is not a security issue, but in such a case there is,

so, in fact, russia found it so, and indeed it is extremely important for them. the second point is crimea, because whoever owns crimea can threaten the existence of ukraine and all the countries that are here in the black sea region. and of course this is an opportunity, what is called projecting power beyond the borders, this is syria, libya and relatives, maybe someone after crimea, tonight, when i interrupt you, and i apologize in front of the audience, but they don't like it, especially when i do it , see, means russian propaganda broke down today , they broke down a few days ago after the interview with arahamia, and they started to promote these theses over there, yes, it could mean not burying people, but only neutral status and so on, and our people forgetting actually what was the reason for the continuation of all this, because of the uproar, and the decision was made, yes, so now they left, came from the other side, they took hold of the words of president zelensky, who, speaking to the students, said about that partners warned that it would be difficult for you to take

donbass and crimea, yes, said president zelenskyy, so russian propagandists started framing it this way. uh, and including mrs. latynina, and they started, that is to say, yes, that is, in fact, the partners said, we will not give you weapons for you to return donbass and crimea, well , maybe, that’s how it is and it was planned because, if you remember, then what are you talking about the borders of 1991, ask all propagandists, in russia and beyond, they may be right, they are right, or rather were right, the first moment, regarding, yes, the horror story of nato, when they say that we provoked nato by wanting to leave, i won't even say that we were a non-aligned state when they attacked us, it's not important, let's remember 93 -th year,

yes, that is, crimea, when ukraine was a de facto ally of the russian federation, we were not interested in the senate at that time, and they wanted to squeeze crimea from us in fact. operation, thanks to general malschuk, thanks to the armed forces, others, we defended it in a soft way, that is, it is an indicator that the aggressive intentions were under the democratic yeltsin, i want to remind you, it is also an interesting story, the year 99, the istanbul meeting of the osce, the meeting between clinton and yeltsin, yeltsin says, well, you know, russia is a european state, come on, you will be asia there engage, and i will give security to the europeans, that is, he wanted to actually dominate. being a weak country, even then they didn't get into the group of seven , they didn't become the eight, and so on, that is , there were aggressive intentions even before we wanted to formally become part of the event, regarding weapons, perhaps, because if you do you remember what american diplomats said , after our first strikes in crimea, that we do not

prohibit, but we do not encourage, that was, that was the wording, and thanks to the united kingdom, not the united states, we got the means that allowed us to strike . the most important thing is crimea - and in this sense it is very correct, says general hodges, he was the first to start this topic. crimea is the center of war, it is the center, the center of gravity, this is the concept, that is, the return of crimea, let's say ukraine, will mean the end of the war, because for it will not make sense for russia to continue this war as such, they absolutely do not need donbas, the destroyed luhansk region, the question is not about protection, russian-speaking or orthodox, but the question is to destroy ukraine, cut it off from the sea, and of course, to enter the geopolitical , more precisely geostrategic. arena outside the black sea region, or it is a closed region, and that is precisely why we have, this

is the most important, our arguments should be, it is difficult for us to go to kherson oblast and others, but we are going, give us the means that will destroy the black sea fleet of the russian federation, this our contribution to overall european security, because calibers, they can finish all the way to the british islands, and they can carry a nuclear warhead, so let's warm up all these warsaw-class submarines, there are as many as five submarines left and the rest of these, and it will be good. and for other regions , for the baltic region and for the far east, because after the war they will need to somehow defend themselves in the south, they will move here, it will be very good for the countries, including those in the arctic, let's not forget that in putin has, as it is called, sweet dreams , yes, that is, wet dreams, wet dreams, about the northern sea route, it is like a train, one train, one road for china, which is important, that is , to actually bypass all these controlled by the united states and the west in general, these straits and other things, in fact we have to destroy

russia’s ability to secure this northern marshland, which will be good for canada, the united states, norway, which means sweden and so on, and for this we can solve it first of all in the black sea, so in we have arguments, ugh, this idea, crimea in the center of the war, can it become the center of unification of all our partners now? well, look, i agree here: the bigger question is, the russians don’t have so many exits to warm seas, but the russian port, through the russian port, barely a third of the total trade turnover of the russian federation, external, why, because there is the way to open the ocean, ugh, oil, grain, and so on, and then they still understand that crimea is actually ukraine begins to control them, this, you know, they ask if there is a branch of the russian economy, how do you know how vyaitsya, there is a russian port and

the krasnodar region, because the destruction of these ports will result, it will be a very painful blow for the russian economy, then it is more interesting, why what, well, well, no, look, because, for example, the ports of the baltic sea, they can and to freeze, yes, but in the black sea , they don’t always freeze, well, they happen at such very low temperatures and they happen quite rarely, and that’s why the key here is that they are fighting precisely for access to the warm sea, by the way, remember the story of peter i too, when his first hikes were on this azov, they then they fought with the ottoman empire for access to the black sea, they constantly hit one point until they achieved it, yes, so in this case we must understand that there is such a question, but again, regarding weapons, i am not optimistic with regard to the fact that the americans are changing their position regarding the fact that they will allow weapons to be fired on the territory of the russian federation,

this is their, i think, principled position, why, with regard to nuclear states, no one wants, you certainly do not, well, i am just looking, what is armed with the army of taiwan, for example, the army to taiwan, no, no, no, wait, but russia is a nuclear state, that is, with its weapons, they are not against it, remember when you mentioned the strike on this nuclear airfield. that as then osin then spoke, well, with such an anglo-saxon yet ironic undertone, that the united states of america will not restrain the development of long-range systems in ukraine, in translation from diplomatically this means, hit, we are not against, just not with our weapons, that is the only question, they repeatedly emphasized it, and here again the question arises, what should we do at all our position is such that we are, after all , internal ... forces should be for the production of our own weapons, so the fact that we

will not make the pppotrio system is clear, we will not make f16, it is clear, we do not need it, yes, but there is a mass production of drones, we can do it, guys, what we can provide, missiles, including for carrying the war on the territory of the russian federation, we can do it, and here the question is, i think that at all can to raise questions, but let's make the black sea generally safe. without of the russian federation, so that the black sea fleet of the russian federation would not be there at all, well, ukraine is working very hard on this, and this and that and look, zelensky too, recently when he spoke. our partner, and with the black sea we were able to do, and we were able to do our own just by the way, that asymmetric war, we did it with our own forces, with our own forces, look, you remember how we, we waited for the nato convoys to come in, will be guarded by erdoğan, erdoğan helped us, well, with his interest, there yes, we understand that these drones were created,

yes, sea babies, or whatever they are called, yes, they will be there now, there is something more political. marichka, the submarine says , and look, yes, and now, what is happening, yes, and now, and now the black sea fleet of russia, it is hiding where, it is hiding in novorossiya, further, when they hit, when they hit the, they already hit the black sea fleet there and so on, they have problems now to recharge the hummingbirds, i read there that they have the infrastructure there to transport and so on, they did it themselves, they did it themselves, the question here is that... it’s not necessary when you say, we have such a population and so on, so we don’t need to produce that, there are huge ships and so on, we don’t need that, we have the same ones to assemble, the abrams can give us, and we can also choose the equipment, by the way, what was called the mosquito fleet, only it has been implemented, now we do not need to ask for permission, we took weapons and do not ask for

permission, the mobile fleet has not been implemented, in fact they have started to buy build corvettes in turkey... all along the coast, which, by the way, we are modernized, the first attack on crimea , you remember, was, it was as long as last year, it was just such a force, from the mosquito fleet to the hyperloupe, you understand, well , there are more corvettes than, so yes, and we must understand, the more we ourselves are stronger, the less danger we will have that they will not help us, they will help us in this, in this trend, and when there is a question there, well, there is a high probability that trump can become president , it can be the other way around, so those are cool guys over there, yes, they help themselves, that's us they do, so let's give them more, and here the chances that he will help us are much

greater, because trump, remember how trump behaved in relation to ukraine, when he was just re-elected. what he did first in relation to crimea was embargoed on the supply of weapons that was introduced by pam obama, it was not like that, it was not like that, frankly, it was in spite of trump, not thanks to him, because then the secretary of defense was jim mattis, the national security adviser robert mcmaster, when they came from trump, yes but trump met with putin, agreed on something unknown, because he was only with an interpreter, no one knows what he agreed on, he. had a crush on ukraine, even then , even before the perfect conversation with president zelenskyi, he thought that one of the ukrainian oligarchs supported hilary clinton, this is not true, this is a lie, it was a russian special operation, further, that some of our hackers are there they did something there, when we had some twitter support for clinton, i remember, it's not the same, it's not the same as

political support, actually direct, therefore he has an irrational dislike. to us, he has, that is, the former mayor of new york giuliani, who does not like us very much, we have friends like the former who went to ukraine several times, even with a letter, from trump, then, that is, then there was a story about digging up dirt on hillary clinton, which did not happen, thank god, then, then, the zelenskyi administration acted normally, that is, in principle, they passed between drops, i would say yes, but here are all the negatives, they did not go anywhere, he treats everything irrationally, other the question of what he can look at, it seems to me, is vanity, what can be played , we must, and we must put up a flag here, that it was our weapon that was the main thing here, no , we, we, we do not mind, of course, of course, but here the only news about mr. trump , you mentioned today, please, how president donald trump was allowed to stand trial in the case of the storming of the capitol, the court decision opens the way

to lawsuits by the police, the capitol, the lawmakers of the democracy, i to the fact that not.. . will reach the elections, he will reach the elections, he can be, to lead this position, even if he is convicted, it is a problem, the only thing is, the only thing is that we do not know what will happen from his electorate, because we have now seen all these scandals, they added, interest, but if he will be formally, that means accused, then maybe those who are, well, such moderate trumpists, they will reject him, the issue is that trump is a cult, it is a religious cult for a large number, and i understand why people like that, well they believe him because he says the things that hurt them, want to hear, they don't like the extreme left leaning of the previous administrations, they want the return of this freedom that was in america, and they have reasons for it, that is , to demand it, but another question,

whatever he does, he is, by the way the last decision a few weeks ago was a judicial one, where he was not, that is , they did not block his possibility of nomination, but in fact they said that he was guilty of abetting this resistance, that is, for not standing , as it is sedition, yes, and actually this phrase... this court decision, which did not help to the democrats, it will be used in other cases, that is, in principle, there may still be such an option, but if, for example, they do not give him a date, he will be closed, so conditionally speaking, this is an opportunity to destabilize the political situation in the united states, we see in the twitter of people with weapons, who say that they will protect the rights there, well, such a traditional america, and this is also a danger, without order there, it will mean that the europeans will not be able to, a political crisis. and absolutely, so let's hope that either, well, the russians will raise a spirit, yes, as always in this, well, he is trying, he will not sit silently, we have already seen what he

creates, i say, today is a bad day for the exes, yes, they, we have, gentlemen, nine minutes, yes, okay, so, of course, there is no single position, because we have forgotten about the european union, that now such a specific situation is emerging, so i will remind you that traditionally, the countries of europe, in particular our neighbors, went first to nato, then to the european union, that was the algorithm, now it may be different with us, it will be a kind of experiment, well, one more question yes, that it must be implemented, and hungary is already creating problems there, and i think that even though there was a statement today that he will not resist, the logic here is clear, he is blackmailing if he blocks everything now. yes, that's all, he doesn't get any concessions from us and at least from brussels, and yes, if there are negotiations on the accession of ukraine, yes, yes, yes, he

will drink our blood for a few more years , blackmail us, brussels will blackmail, this it is already a strategy, not just a tactic, already a strategy, but we have to move, that is in principle, i think that the positive news is that, in principle, there is, except for hungary, negligible, but the consensus regarding our movement is through integration, in this way we are still integrating into this western world, formalizing our, well, our own, let's say its presence in the western world, and i think , if this happens, then i think that it will largely determine, especially if the war is over by then, will determine our entry into nato, it will be a matter of time and procedures , algorithm, how it will be formalized, certain prerequisites for it, even. this annual the program, national, around which , the fact that it has already been specified is already good, but i think that here it is necessary to repeat what happened with the recommendations, all the recommendations on

european integration, yes, let 's implement it, let's implement it, then we say , we have done our work, now it is yours, your answer, you have it, because in principle, now a certain number of members of the european union do not respond well, the same hungary itself in terms of democracy, of course. we are not ready, it is clear, but the issue is political, but on the other hand, we are more ready than albania and there are some countries of the western balkans , where the ukrainian government has long been concentrated, but in the next six months, as you think, because then the presidential campaign in the united states of america will begin, and there will be russian elections , it will be clear in the spring what they will focus on, look, we see that now the anti-corruption wave has three tasks, zelensky's three tasks, he has already said what to focus on, in principle. logically, yes, it is now european integration, ensuring the start of negotiations with the european union, the provision of the dop, the euro-union, well, if only from the mouth, you understand, this is a systemic institutional

framework, we are in the process, the main thing here is that we join this process, yes, because the european bureaucracy will continue to work both on and off us too, yes , with all our shortcomings, and it is important for us to preserve our democracy, to provide for recovery as well, and even financial support, yes, infrastructural, systemic support, if possible, one, as it seems to me, the most important point from this , and it has been for civil society all along integration, is that it is an incentive for our government to do something, because when the government was not very democratic, it was possible only by thanking our partners who pressed to do something, and what about itself, well, what does it mean, reforming the political system, for example , yes, that is , more competitive and other things, it will mean , yes, it will mean more favorable conditions for business and for foreign investment, because if we do not change our political

system, become more competitive, it will mean that all these problems , we have sores will remain, for example, and for me the most important thing is the incentive of our government to go along the path of reforms, and then everyone is already there in the right direction, the first stage is euro integration, and one more important point, for this year, is for front for victory yes, yes, it is also important, yes, one way or another, i think that since our integration into the european union, the importance of security issues for the eu will grow. uhu, yes, and this is important, and one more important point, according to this annual national program, in fact, there is already a certain coordination, yes, when they say, the issues are precisely political reforms, legal reforms, along the lines of european integration, security, the military, legal issues, these are within the framework of the annual national program, and that's normal, that's when these two processes will interact are interconnected, and this logic can be used later, if we successfully move along the path of european

integration, then we can. let's say, to use it as an argument and, well, let's say it, to push them, to stimulate them, in order to speed up euro-atlantic integration, yes that we simply got on this rut, so when we cannot turn, we have no other way, that is, we have already entered the rut, this is a matter of our survival, look, well, regarding yes, the first thing we must do is to arrive at yes these are not ephemeral promises ever, firstly, we must now gain access to their markets, as they have done there for one year now , the main task of the government is access to the market, we don't need, you know, subsidies, when not, when it is not yet known when it will be there, share it, share it with hungary, with others, that is this is the issue, first, we have to ensure that we have permanent access to their market, it is better that it is at least five years, so that we can diversify the economy, rebuild, rebuild, create jobs, and the issue of security, without security there will be no

no, we need to understand the economy, and you ask what the government is doing now, i see that they are doing the right thing, these are guarantees, such as aid, security, this, look, when, look, we have to understand, when investors will understand, that ukraine is capable to protect their assets , yes, then there will be no questions about investments , because it will be clear, there are american missiles, there are ukrainian missiles and so on, why am i saying this, i am with the story from israel, israel, until he decided all their security issues, and this happened only in 73 after the doomsday war, when they showed that everything, they can fully defend themselves, then the usa came, signed an aid agreement with them and so on, and then they started investing money there, in 1974 , intel came to israel and built a plant with production of micro microprocessors, why, because

everything is clear. these are serious people, they won't give away our assets like that, we can cooperate with them, so we should concentrate on, you know, less conversations, when when you don't know, there's no checkers, but not to go, that is, guarantees of help, necessarily, access to markets , access to markets to also stimulate these bureaucrats, because when we have access to markets, we can negotiate, and they can still... will return to our country when there is provision, security and reindustrialization of our economy, we are finishing, colleagues warn, that means friends, on december 4, what are we having, on december 4, a vote in the us congress on president george biden's request to provide aid to ukraine and israel, we

meet with you. or with one of you , in a word, on december 4, we are all watching this event carefully, because a lot depends on it, first the senate, then the lower house, and we still need to find a compromise, that's the main thing, well, in a word, so gradually , and we will talk, thank you very much for today, taras zagrodnya, oleksandr kharov, volodymyr fasenko, 1.1 i will continue the national telethon, with you the night watch project, a discussion platform where we discuss important topics that concern society today, with you is maria vasileva, i am yevhen plinsky, and the topic of our conversation is the blocked border, talk about it we will be with serhiy vovko, director of the center of transport strategies and stanislav zhelyakhovsky, an expert internationalist, we welcome you, friends, to our studio,