in nato, when it does everything possible to be heard, it can call such a meeting, but nato members have no obligations to ukraine, and that's what we need to think about when we hold such meetings, of course, we must say that we they do not really want them, remember that before the attack of ukraine, not russia on ukraine, the majority of our citizens were generally opposed to ukrainian accession to nato, and , by the way, many of them, like genr, believed that this would lead to an attack by russia, well, ukraine did not join nato and waited for the attack, yes so to speak, two things in one, but i remember the year 1997, when ukraine signed this act, ukraine nato, mr. pavle, do you remember 1997, pavlo klimkin is already with us, we congratulate you, signing, hello , friends, congratulations , ms. khrystyna, ms. vitaliy, of course, of course i remember, i was not in madras, but,

well, your mention is almost historical, but i saw the signing of this fundamental act, ukraine nato , we can say that we have advanced a lot over the years, or we can still say that we have advanced, but we are stuck at the door, it is possible, i was not enthusiastic in 1997, i think you are too, and not because of what was signed, but because of what was signed with russia, in principle, trade was then, in relation to the expansion of nato, then before that the big seven joined, and its actual expansion to the big eight, and this attempt to build such a mosaic, it ended very badly, but the fact that we made a quantum leap is with although we also have to understand

that the war, and the first stage, the second, we were brought to where we are, that is, this movement was not given to us just like that, and we have it, we have to understand it, just as we have to understand that nato, i'm not saying all of nato, this nato sometimes sounds like a collective event, but nevertheless, a significant part of the event had more than large doubts about how and where to advance with us, and in fact not only with us. uhu, please tell me, mr. pavle, here is the creation of the ukraine nato council, and a meeting at the level of foreign ministers. i am sure that you have analyzed this important event that took place on november 29, can we say that we have any practical gains as a result these stairs? well, the council is a good

story, it does not mean that we now have the same status, the fact that we are at the same table, we can speak in a different way, yes, it gives us opportunities, after all, all decisions in nato are key , they are political, and if they are political, then this is a decision at the level of heads of state and government, and this is exactly the kind of meeting... the council has already been, the ministers of foreign affairs, when they meet, they are engaged in, i would use such a word, refining those political decisions, which are accepted by management of states and governments, and this is actually a meeting, it first of all gave an understanding of where we are moving in terms of interoperability, where we are moving in order to advance, well

, actually in the area where we are already advancing, that is, there appeared systematicity and a certain predictability, that is, yes, this is a step forward , if you want, even several steps forward, please tell me, in principle, if we talk about the prospects of the washington summit, here is what we can actually achieve, what we should strive for, i do not want not to disappoint anyone, but i'm rather skeptical, the way i read the mood today in many nato capitals, about the next jump during the washington summit, but also i'm quite optimistic about, i just think that it will happen already after the washington summit, this summit actually will take place immediately under... the presidential elections in the states. and as far as

i'm concerned, it has its pros and cons, but there are a few more cons. in the sense that during the campaign to say. about additional obligations to americans is always a story that they try to avoid, so i think that the decision, that is, the decision to start the accession procedure will not be made in washington, but saying this does not mean that we have to put our front legs, as they say and the back legs, and stop this work, and focus on some perspective, because it will then mean , that both the drive and the dynamics of this process may disappear to a certain extent, therefore, on the contrary, this drive needs to be promoted, and

we have another topic, a topic that was actually thrown at us by the day, today, yesterday, we are talking about the activity of all representatives of the ukrainian political community, all possible connections on international platforms , platforms for the benefit of our country, and why this potential is not always used, petro poroshenko was actually not released abroad, the security service of ukraine refers to information that he should become, well, almost a tool in the hands of the russian propaganda machine, if i met viktor orbán, and now it is used by all the machines that only we can see, what is happening at all, can you explain? no, i can't, i actually take this story as, on the one hand, enough funny, but on the other hand, seriously and somewhat charismatic, because on the one hand,

a meeting with orbán in today's game played by the prime minister of hungary will bring nothing... will bring neither positive nor negative, and i don't know how to use it and in the process of preparing for the yesiv summit, and i don't know how russia is going to use it, well, maybe there is some super secret information that is insidiously planned there, but i see orbán's game as his sense of the moment that he begins to... walk along, he understands that all the money will not be unlocked for him at once, he has the opportunity to block us, to put sticks in the wheels not only at the beginning of preliminary negotiations, but in fact at each section, and there are only officially 35 of them,

i.e. entry to the section exit, you already have at least 70 points , in fact , there are more than 100 of them, if you count those who know yesiv mechanics. and you and i haven’t started talking about nato yet, but orbán’s game is also about money, it ’s about candidacies in brussels, it’s also about pulling to of a possible republican administration, i understand that he is there with moscow, gas prices, which are actually blackmailing preferential treatment for hungary, and other factors, that is, he is playing his strategic game, and i believe that we... today are not in a position where we can squeeze orbán somewhere, this is not a strong position, so let our friends and allies decide the issue with orbán, which they actually do, only that the president of the eurocouncil was there, i know that

others spoke with orbán, please excuse me, and charles michel, i am now actually quoting the statement of european solidarity, he is also in in this case, the tool... is in the hands of the russian special services, since he met with orban, and president zelensky, who invites him to ukraine? no, i think that here it is necessary to ask the fsb separately and the russians, of course this is sarcasm, but the logic, the logic is very simple, in fact, i do not see any, any fundamental meaning in this story, and i generally think that now we have to play like in jazz. one tune, but with the possibility of improvisation, we have a difficult situation and a difficult situation due to the fact that the campaign is starting in the states, which will unpredictable, we have events in israel, around gaza, we will have our surge around

the presidential elections in taiwan in january, and now we need to use really everything we can in terms of being understood, so that we convey not only emotions, but and the content, what we want and how we want, but again, i don't understand this story at all, if someone knew that poroshenko was going to meet with zorban, then the question is, why couldn't he be told that he was actually going to to use, that is, i say, as for me the story is 50% funny, not 50% we don't even know if he was going to meet with orbán, by the way, in the same thing, he actually, i think, he had something to talk about with tusk for example, so i and i say that the story is in fact, which does not lend itself to any allergic interpretation. please tell me, if we talk in the context of what

is happening now in principle with western unity, we are waiting for the summit of the european union, how much help do we receive there in general, how much will we be invited to negotiations, when this position of hungary. i believe that orbán will not block, orbán will play as history, orbán will extract from us and from everyone else, everything he can on prospects, and when you look at what he speaks in hungarian, and my hungarian acquaintances translated it for me, he deliberately leaves it simple, so 50 billion, as they will be approved for me, orban will... try to play that this money is confirmed every year, and

unfortunately there is such a chance, and at the same time i believe that the political decision about the beginning, pre-admissions negotiations will be accepted when they physically start there, that's another story, but it also means, we just talked about the need to work together, that we need to prepare a position for these negotiations. and this is a broad discussion with business and with civil society, actually on the same level, and i remember very well the negotiations about the association, but the preliminary negotiations are the association multiplied, well , at least by 20, if in fact not more, and we need not hundreds, and thousands of people who understand european law, on many issues, and for these people to take... act with those who will actually feel the preliminary

process, this is business, and society, this is actually a crazy story and you need to prepare for it, keeping time, and as they say , not even yesterday, on the day before yesterday, well, one more question, to what extent the world community is now actively reacting to what is happening in our military-political leadership, to the actual situation: where we already have a separation between the political and military leadership and are actually mocking each other. well, that's also what why do we know from the media, we know from the media and we have this from social networks, one deputy, one deputy, a person with a mandate, in fact, but articles from fairly authoritative publications, such as the economist, for example, and, what else, the wall street journal, i read literally the other day, actually shows that the world is too. reflects on er these stories, how dangerous they are, well stories, of course it matters

, in my opinion, these articles are read more in ukraine, and those people who are directly related to ukraine also follow them, so we we know the authors of all these articles, if you mean iconomist or woll street journal, as far as i understand, markus ulker is a person who spent a couple of weeks there in ukraine, traveled a lot, spoke a lot, that is, what he writes, writes , it's not there from the ceiling or from some conversations, it's, it's a feeling , and what the story is about, the discussion inside, it goes to the western media, you, you see it, and well, the last story that we just discussed, it's just not the reverse. and also a kind of mirror story, and this story

of course, it is dangerous, because at some point the west will look from a different angle at how ready we are to form a strategy and agree on a joint strategy with them, because internal unity is what makes us uniquely unique. all these months, if we lose it, the discussions in the west that are happening, they can start, of course from another angle and not only in the media. in principle, june, if we talk about what we should do to change this impression that is created on the western audience, the question is that we cannot do it we don't react, that is , the public reacts to it, which is so nervous, the government and the military leadership, they are silent, as if it is not about them, i think that the answer is very

simple and we all know it, it means joint visits, a common opinion and joint activities here in ukraine, that's what is visible, and actually for all of us and for our friends, it shows unity, unity of thought, unity of strategy, unity of purpose, because it's actually very important, it's very simple, but actually it always works, sir pavle, i wanted to ask you about this session of obsie, that's it it's really an incredible story that north macedonia agreed, obviously not by itself, to let sergey lavrov's plane pass so that sergey lavrov would be a participant in this session, he spoke there, actually scolded everyone at this session, who he could and who he couldn't, why is the event going on like this for all these old forms of cooperation with russia, when they still do not

work, explain to me, and the answer is very simple, they want to keep... the possibility of at least some indirect control over elections, over the observance of human rights, over freedom of speech, and within the framework of the osce there are authorities for this, which work, how should i say so censoriously, far from ideal, but nevertheless work, this is again the marism of the situation with the osce lies in the fact that with russia it already... makes no sense, and without russia it also makes no sense, since in the 75th year the osce was created precisely as a platform for conversation between the western and eastern, then pro-soviet bloc, i believe that at some point we need to get together and honestly say, that obsie should be killed, well, after all, the west

gave birth, as taras bulba said, i gave birth to you, i will kill you, and then create new sites, within the framework of the osce there were many regimes of arms control, maintaining trust, russia killed all these regimes, that is, today the real added value for our friends, it's an indirect , let's call it, control of key freedoms, in my opinion, in general, the whole story that happened in north macedonia, it's very... for us and very bad for the west, there was less solidarity than i would like it more than you would like it when someone goes there does not go, someone goes, and someone, on the contrary, goes and says, it is even good that lavrov came there, we will talk here, for example, as the austrian minister of foreign affairs, and in

the kremlin, such a meeting is perceived as a mess inside the west and could reduce the level of solidarity , i believe that before the meeting it was necessary to do everything to agree on a single line of behavior and single signals, the fact that it did not succeed is, unfortunately, a gift to the kremlin. thank you, pavlo klimkin, diplomat of the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2014-2019, was on the air, we will now wait for our next interlocutor, he will be the extraordinary plenipotentiary ambassador of ukraine in israel. mr. yevhen hornechuk, this is the 57th day of the war. and by the way, you and mr. eugene talked on the first day of the war. and i have to say that after these 57 days, the only thing that can be said is that few people at all imagined that the war in the middle east would continue for so long, and there would be no end to it. this, by the way, is roughly like the russian-ukrainian war. all the wars, i

talked about it many times in this studio, in other studios, everyone wars in the middle east, they happened. just a few weeks, and we always said, well, what to compare israel with ukraine, israel is a country that fights short wars, long wars, they are first given to israel in connection with the mobilization potential, it is a small country, the territory kyiv region, in fact. secondly, this is a huge blow to the israeli economy, by the way, now the israeli economy is creating and suffering insane losses, billions, and again, the israeli economy is not ukrainian, it is high technologies, these are technoparks, it all stops, it stops also because a huge number of people who are employed there, they are just reservists, they are in the army, there is no way to somehow separate it all, again, in connection with a not very large. population, and with that everyone sees it, everyone says, probably in a couple of weeks , it will be over, i heard it from israeli

military experts, literally there for 20-30, and there is no real prospect, and why is it not over, in your opinion , because israel has made a decision for itself to eradicate as much as maybe hamas this time, or hamas prepared too well, by the way, how do you feel about the idea of ​​politics in my opinion. no, the new york times, who believe that israel knew about hamas' plans a year before the attack? that's what the media write, i don't really believe it, to be honest, but i think that the main thing is exactly what you say, that israel , i think, can't really do anything, uh, to , not to destroy hamas as such an organization, because if we stop, hamas will continue. to act, then what will happen to the position of the israeli government and security forces of structures, yevhen karenchuk, ambassador plenipotentiary of ukraine in israel, congratulations , mr. yevhen, good evening, by the way, mr. yevhen, i want to address to you

christina's question, why is israel forced to wage such a long war, although it is absolutely not in the traditions of the very ideas about the security of the jewish state, well, it's a difficult question, and everything depends on the tactics and what the israeli women want to achieve. side, based on the situation that has developed, it is clear that to completely destroy the gas sector will mean huge losses of the civilian population, and this is unacceptable , you see how many world and european leaders oppose this, israel cannot ignore this, therefore, accordingly , tactics are needed that correspond to...' all norms of humanitarian law provide, cautiously, for a slow offensive that will allow

to avoid the deaths of the civilian population as much as possible , that is why the operation is being stretched, today in the local press there were new numbers or new dates that indicate that, most likely, the active phase of the operation will end the next three months, but the whole operation can last up to a year, and how do you think israel as a state will function for such a time, well, it's hard to say, because we know the numbers of financial losses, the war costs the government about 300 million dollars every day and the decline economy is quite significant, today i read statistics that about 30% of businesses have closed or are closing, and it is very difficult, but i think

that when it comes to the end of the active phase and the transition to the passive phase, accordingly, probably the budget expenditures will reduced, and these are not only expenses for defense, directly for the tzahal, for example, and for the special service, these are also expenses related to the fact that a huge population has been resettled both from the north and from the south and lives in hotels at the expense of the state with full support, i today i was in the north, in the area of ​​keener lake, all the hotels are full of refugees from the north and from the south, and in fact the tourist cluster is also not working, so these are all costs that will definitely affect the israeli economy, so the corresponding aid from the united states. the same it is important for israel as well as for ukraine. we will simply remind you that joseph biden is appealing to congress, 100 billion,

60 billion of which should go to ukraine, for its support, and of course, this package also includes assistance to israel in its opposition to the terrorist hamas. however, on the 57th day of the war, mr. yevgeny, there are certain successes, because when it comes to the release of hostages, it is actually an exchange, it can already be called a certain progress, unfortunately, hamas does not follow the rules , and assumed, in particular obligations, and disrupts armistice, the tsakhal resumes hostilities in gas, well, this is what the columns of world publications were actually filled with this week, can we talk about some other stage of the war, or are we now observing the systematic implementation of the plans set at the very well , look, these wars are very different,

although the americans, of course, us. put the war in israel and the war in ukraine in the same row, rather it is a huge very dramatic act of terrorism for which israel was not prepared, which took the lives of more than 1400 people, but we made comparative graphics, like the embassy and covered in the local press, 1,400 of our citizens died in the first months of the war only in the war. that is, in the suburbs of kyiv. in fact , the situation in my memory was already similar, and we observed its massive military operation in the gas sector 2.5 years ago. ee before e extraordinary elections, er, actually, when er, netanyahu lost power for a whole year, when an alternative government was elected.

but. er, well, everything is fine, it really succeeded in the last week, in the seven days of the truce exchange 110 israelis for 240 palestinians who did not take part in hostilities, usually civilian women and teenagers, but today there was an attempt to extend this truce and continue the exchange in qatar, which unfortunately ended in the evening with nothing, israel withdrew his negotiating delegation. it is very difficult to say how the events will develop further, but the israel defense forces continues a massive operation, you know that in the gas sector it is divided in two, and in the north separately, and in the south, an extra-clean operation is taking place block by block, and it is being done very slowly, that is why, in order to avoid civilian deaths, today the news agencies reported that

russian-made missiles were found among the humanitarian aid, this information is now being verified, but it is absolutely certain that without further verification humanitarian aid delivered by the israelis to the gas sector through egypt, apparently humanitarian aid will simply not be delivered in the future, and today the exchange began again, not an exchange, sorry. and the exit of foreigners from of the gas sector, today there are quite a large number of americans, germans, canadians, russians, and a few more citizens of several nationalities who left through the rafah checkpoint for egypt, we submitted another group for the evacuation of ukrainians, and

i hope that this week we will hold the final evacuation, that is, we currently have an additional 146 people on the list, whom we are ready to evacuate, we are trying to coordinate and carry out the final evacuation as quickly as possible. i remind you that we have already deported 259 people, and of these 259 , 172 people successfully arrived in ukraine, the rest decided either to stay in egypt or to go alone to other arab countries or to europe. please tell me. evgeny, in your opinion, in 57 days , israeli society changed its attitude towards russia and ukraine? well, you know, the question is difficult, because in my opinion, israeli society was pro-ukrainian even before this war. and the fact that ukraine showed its support for unity, er, it may have strengthened the feeling of friendship and

the feeling of solidarity with the people of ukraine in israel, but we had no problems with israel, with israeli citizens from the very first day of the war, everyone clearly understood who was the enemy and who was the friend. we have always had a problem with the government, and to some extent the problem remains, because uh, we hear from washington uh, clear uh messages that the war in ukraine and the war in israel are a war on terrorism, and washington. .. does not separate these two wars, on the contrary, it unites them, and in the same way you see that a proposal to provide financial assistance to ukraine to israel was also submitted to congress in one document. the israeli government is trying to be here somewhere quite carefully. and of course, attention to them distracts attention to some extent.