comes to write something, often in private messages when i'm there, sometimes , well, i just try not to let her on my feed, so that, but when you say, the inner monkey, that is not in any way a discount to the actual horror of it all, yes , which people are going through, and what price they pay for it so that we can even talk about it now, this internal muffa helps a lot to survive in the gap, without it, there is no way when you go back to the rear, you sometimes. it takes a certain amount of time for you to somehow lock her in a cage again, me i know what else i wanted to ask, i saw, i saw, the post of oleg sentsov, who is now the commander of the assault company, he was wounded, recently near avdiivka, and he recently wrote this, last year, when i was coming from near bakhmut, where there were heavy battles, the impression was... stronger, the contrast is really

huge, i saw calm people, whole houses, cars, few soldiers, it was so annoying on a subconscious level, then you accept it and understand that we are fighting there so that the country can live a peaceful life, now there is no such irritation, civilians live their own lives life and we are for it to continue, uh, but it is important that they do not forget, thanks to whom it is happening here, we mean a peaceful life, this is what we are now showing exactly this video of oleg sentsov, which he distributed, and we just took excerpts of this video, as what happens in the trenches, oleg often talks about it, where does the impression come from, so that civilians forget that civilians, that civilians do not appreciate what is happening enough, you also have this impression, that civilian cities, rear cities, they do not appreciate enough and do not interfere with the price.

the price that is paid for it, ah, ah, i once had a priest acquaintance, he told me that in the bible you can find anything, and even different role models of behavior for the same challenges, well, that is, someone will stop at the law taliona ok zako tooth for tooth, and someone will stop at the sermon on the mount, love your neighbor. and everything else, and this priest of mine said that it all depends on you, where in the bible you place bookmarks, where they will lie, what advice for different situations you will take as your role models own, chantalion or sermon on the mount? i think about it every time i am asked, for example, about the army, because the army is also like the bible and you can find anything there, and examples of heroism and examples

of bureaucracy and it all depends on where in your own memories you will place your bookmarks, and the same thing i think every time when i go to the rear, and because you can also see in the rear, someone will see an indifferent boy who violates the curfew and there, i don't know, spits on the law, and someone in the rear will see people who like volunteers find maviks and send them to the front. someone in the rear will see people who are living their best life, and someone will understand that those people, at whom he is just looking at, it is possible that the family of a fighter who is now somewhere encouraged, and this is his wife, and this is his daughter, so, it still depends, you know, every time, feedback about the rear, it's a little and this one, ah, mm, test, test, when i spot you.

shows what you see on this spot, and you're already talking about your own, your own subconscious, i'm just trying to remember rodshach, that is, every time you look at the back and draw conclusions about the back, it’s like a rorschach test, you look at the back, and then you begin to confess, and talk about the fact that , as you see the world, here, on the one hand, here i am i would like to emphasize here that sometimes a counter story tells more about the narrator than the counter. and on the other hand, i would like to emphasize that, of course, it is necessary to understand that the reality of the ukrainian tele, it is completely different from the reality of the ukrainian ancestor and it cannot but be different, no one was better, if lviv resembled drushkivka, and kyiv resembled kostiantynivka. and on the other hand, i

think that a certain contrast is preserved due to the fact that the ukrainian rear, still fortunately , maybe to some extent fortunately... is not a pond for the ukrainian front, the rear for the ukrainian front is a collective west, it is the west that manufactures weapons , it is the west that manufactures the shells, it is the west, the united states and europe that every month pour billions of dollars into the ukrainian economy, because of this the ukrainian economy can afford not to raise tariffs, not to raise taxes, not in not ... limit imports and so on, and when you, for example, i recently had a vacation, i was in prague, i was in warsaw, i was lucky, kombat signed a permit to to spend a vacation abroad, and when i returned, many people asked me what stands out

when you compare a street in prague or a street in warsaw with the ukrainian streets of lviv or kyiv, so nothing stands out, there is no such contrast, ukrainian til on... maybe afford not to look like the rear, due to the fact that our rear is a collective measure, and if a collective measure, europe or the united states decide, friends, we will continue to give you weapons, but we will not give money to maintain the economy, and we will have to look for this money somewhere, then maybe the contrast between , well then, maybe the ukrainian rear will have to stand in the rear of a warring country and we will see more restrictions or more of some kind then i will ask you right away about your text, you wrote a text not so long ago, a few months ago, called projecting the future in public imagination, or about projecting

the future in the public imagination, maybe it was a transcription of some interview, and what is possible, maybe, you see, you write so much that you even forgot such complex titles for the texts. i'm making it up , i have a lot of them, maybe i made them so complicated, but it's about the fact that you write about the fact that if the war ends, ends or ends according to the scenario that society considers victorious, then we will all feel national triumph, so we will become part of the event, so to speak, yes, the euro-atlantic security system and so on, but if the war ends... not according to such a scenario as in society, then it will actually turn into anti-westernism, resentment and so on, whether or not in these few months, which have somehow changed your, your thoughts, well, according to what

news we have, let's say there from the ukrainian-polish border, with the adoption of the budget in the bill yes. so in the american congress, and with all these, i see that this, that this is anti-western sentiment, that they are actively fueled, also, they do not simply, they are not just born somewhere, well, i think that our anti-western sentiments, if even a single russian ipso did not work in our country, they would be born anyway, one way or another, simply because yes, and we we see the case of the blocking of ukrainian trucks on the polish border, we see the victory of robert fico in slovakia, we see orban, well, orban from the first day, but in the 23rd we still saw the victory of the populists in the netherlands, who are also not very favorable we are treated, we see the trumpists, because of which we are blocked

we still can't get the money, and of course, look, first of all, i think that no matter how the war ends, if it doesn't end. the defeat and disappearance of ukrainian statehood, then the main, main internal ukrainian dilemma will immediately change, if from 1991, to even 22, it was a swaying east-west, are we part of the western world, are we it is necessary to negotiate with russia, the csto, the chito-russian union or the european union, then all this will go to nothing. i think that the future, it has already gone to heaven, and the future, the main ukrainian dilemma, is there will be classic scales for any european country, one part of society will demand to save democracy, and another

part of society will demand to save the nation, this is a hesitation between eurooptimists and eurosceptics, each eurosceptic comes and says: this is your whole... european unions are the destruction of nations . we need to save the nation, we need some isolationism. direct efforts not to build green energy there somewhere, but to take care of the fate of an ordinary pole, hungarian, slovak, citizen of the netherlands and so on, and so on, and so on, and other people will say the opposite, who will be euro-optimists, we must save democracy, we must, on the contrary, integrate further into some kind of supranational structure. and everything else , i think that's it, i'm sorry, i hope, i

'm not above you right now, nothing, nothing, yeah, ah, i think that we have this challenge and we're going to share too on eurosceptics and eurooptimists, and of course, any victory of eurosceptics now, somewhere in european countries. it will also nourish the present and the future ukrainian eurosceptics who will say , well, look, we defended them, but they elected people there who devalued ukraine, suggested that ukraine sit down at the negotiation table with putin and so on, and so on, so on, you take it, me seems like a very far-fetched scenario, why? i will tell you even now, well, for example, we can now understand which political forces will lean towards which gender of the future of this camp, who will become a eurosceptic, who will become a eurooptimist, this is clear,

even now, when we listen to the interview, and that there will be too, we can understand which camp this or that speaker leans towards, and so i think it's just now, this, this is that you remember, this is the story of when there was this dispute between volodymyr zelenskyi and ben wallace about who should thank whom, should we thank the europeans for supplying us with weapons, or should the europeans thank ukraine for the fact that we use their weapons to fight on our territory, for example, one of the main questions is whether it is ready, for example , putin, say, war with nato, depending on how you answer this question, are you also fueling the camp of euro-optimists? or the camp, the camp of euros skeptics, because if putin is not ready to fight with nato, then nato is

safe, all nato countries are safe and their help to us is charity. if we believe that putin is ready to fight with nato, then the west is just now defending itself against a future attack on itself, itself, by the hands of the ukrainian armies, and handing over weapons to us is not their right, it is their duty. either you will transfer weapons to us, we will fight with them on ukrainian territory, or you will be them yourself fight when putin deals with ukraine and goes further west. and how do you feel the role and weight and importance of the ukrainian army, it seems to me that the ukrainian army is becoming such a very visible, subject, such a player, not only at the front, but it can become later, after the victory, yes, to become a very... significant player in ukrainian politics, do you see that? no, i don’t see, you don’t see, in general the conditions for, let’s say, even

a military coup, as an extreme way of the army’s participation in political life, it is possible only where the army is the only institute in the country, and all other institutes are allegedly stupid, where there, it is possible where the elites are considering the military. for their children , as the only real career, it is possible to be where the army is, usually in young countries, like the young turkey after the collapse of the ottoman empire, where the army is the only guide to modernization, and where a man in uniform is perceived as, as the only conductor of mobilization and success in society, and so on and so forth. ukrainian society is not one where a military career is perceived as

something, as the only opportunity to build career in this sense, ukraine is not, due to many factors, but a career is possible, for example, a military coup, because it was possible during the time of atatürk in turkey, which we, where the army was united. a guarantor of both modernization and career and success in general, and so on, and so on, and so on, in our country, you have to understand, the army consists of very different people, we, when in pixel, we are all similar to each other, and when you go to talk to the soldiers, you will find out that this one wants the euro, integration and so on, they just spread society, that themselves more than others, and this soldier or officer wants to be a separate israel, which can , among other things, disobey the west, and this one generally

believes that we should be there, i don't know, not to enter anywhere, but to build. our own sovereign state, so we are united by the pixel, but the pixel does not make our views, the same, and our visions the same, and the army can be generalized in some things, well, for example, the quality of food, in the army, more or less, everything is fine with by this, but the army cannot be generalized to the level, and for whom the army i will vote, that's why i don't know, i will generalize only simply in the degree of legitimacy and trust. public interest in the army, that is, i only, i only meant this when i said that there is, but it is difficult for me to imagine the military party, here is the military party, what will it insist on, except that let's invest in the army, in patriotic upbringing, buying, looking at what kind of military it will be, yes, there will be military, you are also a military,

yes, i just mean, what to generalize there, when i hear... about the party of the military or about how the army participates in political life, well, it is supposedly a party of brown-haired people, or a party of brunettes, well, yes, there are signs that unite, of course, these signs are more than hair color, this is a certain experience, but inside the military there are very different views on how instrumentally the country should... develop after the active phase of hostilities ends. now let's go back to the quarrels, let's go back to the quarrels, that 's what we started talking about, i also want to ask you if civil society can be united and consolidated, yes, if the government,

if these dissociative movements proceed in particular from for example, we see these cracks, these conflicts, which are not explained to us yet, between the political military leadership, yes, these are some strange statements of the people's deputy of ukraine bezugllaya, yes or other things, just a few days ago, that's why mediaarch , which you know very well, went to law enforcement with a statement that the anonymous telegram channels that we also know, yes, they are connected, many of them are connected to the office of the president, that's it this is an appeal, so the coppersmiths call on the law enforcement officers to identify those involved in the pressure on journalists, so on the media detector, in particular natalya ligachova and so on, how are these intimidations, because there were threats to natalya ligachova,

who heads the media detector, how can this intimidation affect... on relations in society, on the state of society and so on, and what our strategy, as a civil society, can be in this situation, in your opinion, well, i will say frankly, i missed everything, well, i told you, yes, i just i didn't read anything that was written there by this or that piece of shit other telegram channels, regarding the media detector and i just don’t dive in yet, it’s hard for me to comment, i just understand, i understand that, i heard that in the office of the president, when meetings with copper workers were held there, or other records, or not other records, well, they invited there, in particular , representatives of these anonymous telegram channels, like trukha and so on, and so on, maybe they

thought it was an interesting idea, how to make administrators obedient, or... affiliates there of the largest ukrainian telegram channels there, it seems to me that it is not really, this shows that the person who was responsible for who exactly to invite to the president's office for a meeting with the people of mozhnagorsk doesn't really understand the difference between an anonymous telegram channel and journalism, probably it is, after all, the people who watch on quantity, and it is not really understood, why sometimes quality, to win over quantity here and there and because of this, because of this invitation to representatives of the authorities, there are the same, there are

the same telegram channels that do not always think about the consequences in which they published, in particular and there are video arrivals of russian missiles and so on further, and so on, that is, they live here and now and they are generally about monetization, not about any values, they... know how to feel the power behind them, shine with a reflected light, let's say so, and because of this, they start hyping here and there attacking the representatives of the journalistic workshop, do you see a threat in the fact that you and i have been talking for quite a long time for more than half an hour about the fact that these neuroses, some tensions, cracks in relations between people, between environments, between authorities, actors, between, between the government and the military, military leadership, it's dangerous, that's what i'm thinking , it's terribly dangerous, it's definitely dangerous, because a country can win

only when its outer fortress wall is higher than the inner fence, if the inner fence becomes higher than the outer fortress wall, then the country begins to fall apart, the country begins to fight, with itself, and not with an external enemy, and certainly a significant part of the russian ipso, informational and psychological special operations, they are particularly aimed at reducing the interpersonal trust of the ukrainian citizens, ah, to reduce trust in the authorities, to reduce trust in the army, to reduce trust in institutions, and you simply do not need to help, voluntary assistants of the russian special services, in this, and it also seems to me that the fact that the party in power still

can't decide how to react to maryana bezugly's accusations against valery zaluzhny, this is also a bad signal if they somehow react, it will also be a signal if they don't react in any way, thereby normalizing maryana bezugly's attacks on the commander-in-chief , this will also be a signal to me it seems simple that society is like an element, we cannot demand from society, addressing our viewers, that do not do this, do not do that, well , society, as it is an element, try to control it, sometimes or teach it, it is sometimes as sekhti... you are the sea, well, the result is the same, but there are headliners and stakeholders, well, that is, there are people who are the bearers of a certain resource subjectivity, the president, politicians,

opposition leaders, leaders of public opinion, and everyone else, and if we do less interviews with iryna farion, we will do them less often ask her how she feels about the russian-speaking servicemen, then the russian-speaking servicemen will have fewer reasons for indignation, well, that is the responsibility of the editors, what is the goal she sets for herself, to get hundreds of thousands , millions of views, or not to get them at the cost of public peace, as well it depends on the opposition, whether the opposition will register mindless petitions like... send home all military personnel after 18 months of service, realizing that the government, for example, either now or the gsha cannot even agree, let go, and understanding that

the fact of registering such a petition will bring you political dividends, but will kill the climate in trust in, for example, the armed forces, you should not do that either, and the authorities, in the end, need a little less for, sometimes i it seems that we live in... an undeclared election campaign, when everyone thinks not about the consequences of their actions and not about long-term horizons, but about situational ratings. you have this feeling, here is the last question, you have this feeling that in our shop, yes, in the middle there are enough people in the media and in the political class, there is a critical number of people who understand all the threats you are talking about and will not allow it, well, if our...' country lost its common sense, rivet, lost its mind, we would lose the war still in the 22nd year , so i'm just thinking that the fact that

we're standing up to a country, the biggest country on the planet and fighting the biggest continental war in the last 70 years, because all the other wars are personnel wars against partisan movements, so that the personnel army against the cadre army, there it was the last iran-iraq war 81-86 and here we are now and the fact that we are resisting and quite well, it makes me so reasonable, but optimistic, but i would like to, we live in in a very inflamed society, in a very , society in which there is a lot of stress, in which, in an atmosphere in which there is a temptation very often to look for the culprit and let our inner monkey loose, and the more carefully we control our inner mafka, not

letting her, behind the keyboard, on the air, ah, there, into the space of political or any other decisions, it will be easier for all of us to live on, and it will be easier for all of us to maintain a sense of commonality among each other, internal fences will not become higher than the external fortress wall, if our internal the mafka in the rear will sit under the lock. thank you, pavlo kazarin was a guest of his own names today. see you in a week. there is a war going on, and not only for territories, it is also a war for minds. we are engaged in propaganda. russia is throwing millions of petrodollars into transforming

ukrainians to little russians. ukraine will become let's counter the information attacks of the russians in the chronicles of information war project with olga ley. monday, tuesday, thursday at 17:15 on the espresso tv channel. hello, this is svoboda ranok. radio svoboda's top guests are included daily in the ship district . we are somewhere in the vicinity of bakhmut. we tell the main thing. on weekdays at 9:00.

see this week in the collaborators program.

traitors with sentences, who are fanatics of the kremlin.