in terms of militarization, israel conceded to ukraine , i don’t know, in fact, whether this is true or not, well, at least there are such data that ukraine is now the most militarized country in europe, and we have overcome these steps from the 18th to the first in literally a year, well at least that's what the germans say, uh, you're in favor of ukraine becoming more... and more militarized, or you're still in favor of ukraine being under the umbrella of a militarized bloc that will solve some of the problems that we now we independently decide with russia, and this and that, here come on, you already mentioned poland, let's mention it again, here's how poland is doing, they are members of nato, and quite active, their generals are in the leadership of the north atlantic alliance, but... at

the same time, looking at what is happening in other allies of the alliance, the poles have already started a large-scale rearmament of their own army for the second year, well, for comparison, for example, they plan to buy up to a thousand tanks only from south korea, well , because there are no modern tanks in europe, everything has already been dug up and they are very large are not issued, on all internal semi-closed or closed forums the poles to... the germans that we have in poland, well, that's what they say, there are already more tanks than german tanks, more than on the territory of germany itself, that's how they reproach the germans, therefore, poland is starting a very serious large-scale rearmament program, and soon it is obvious that this country will have, well, probably the first army among the countries of the european union, a land army on the territory of europe, just think, it will be an army bigger than, for example, the army of germany or france . that is,

this is how they behave, although they are members of the north atlantic alliance, but they are very good at learning lessons from their own history and from the history that is happening now in ukraine. therefore, for ukraine, i think, this is exactly the path that we also need. i believe that ukraine needs to arm itself, it needs to have its own production complex, but in no way should this be an alternative to joining nato, because only the north atlantic alliance provides a guarantee that in the event of a war, there will be a future one. no, members of the north atlantic alliance will fight with us on our side against the aggressor, because when you know it, an ally somewhere, you know, now we see how it is treated even in the united states, there is a purely internal politics around this, but if american soldiers were sitting now in the trenches next to our soldiers, i think that the discussions in the american parliament would have been a little different, just as the pace of assistance to us was a little different from the side of germany, france and... probably

no one would have blocked the trucks on the polish-ukrainian border , if the poles together with us fought against the aggressor. therefore , i think that the north atlantic alliance is a guarantee that we will have the unconditional support of our allies. at the same time, of course, you need to arm yourself. i think we still have a lot to learn in israel. in our country, probably, we, perhaps, i agree with the expert you quoted, perhaps the militarization of society is already higher than in israel, but... but in israel, this militarization is primarily based on its own production resources, they produce their own equipment, they produce their own technologies , they produce israeli weapons, and that is why they have reached such a level of militarization, and we still have these weapons only thanks to our allies, so here we need to pay attention to this, and this is the last thing, you know, when comparing israel and ukraine, i always want to remind you of one important thing: israel remains a democracy. despite any war

and despite the fact that the war has been going on there for several decades, there is freedom of speech, there is an understanding that democratic institutions must remain democratic, there is no political censorship, there is military censorship, this is absolutely natural, but there is no political censorship, and this gives the opportunity for this country to survive and society to survive, because if we imagine that, for example, we need high-tech weapons, then we must understand that such weapons are best produced not in sharashkin's offices, but according to stalin's model, when scientists produce something in some closed premises, by free people who have high salaries, have freedom and who have enough opportunities and desire to work on the territory of israel and develop those weapons, we also have to create the right conditions in ukraine for scientists, for those people who know how to make modern technologies, so that they do not run away, stay

voluntarily in ukraine and produce these weapons, so the success of israel is not only in weapons, in preserving democratic institutions, and this is the second lesson that ukraine should learn from israel, in everything else, for example, man... and our soldier, i think that we can definitely give israel a head start, but in terms of technology and regarding institutions, we still need to learn here. of nato. yesterday, zelenskyi met with biden and biden said that ukraine will become a member of nato after the victory over russia. let's listen to what the president of the united states of america said. for now, we have to make sure that ukraine will win the war. as you know, we launched a joint. aid program with president zelenskyi and g7 leaders in vilnius, identifying long-term commitments to support ukraine's defense needs. we also held an industrial defense conference last week in washington to accomplish this critical

task, so let's move one step at a time. mr. serhiu, regarding nato, regarding prospects in the north atlantic alliance? in ukraine, well , it seems that no one has any doubts that ukraine should be in nato, there were different theories that ukraine could join nato with part of the territory that is not occupied, part of it is occupied, then join of the part that will join the north atlantic alliance, but we see that the united states of america and other members of the north atlantic alliance pori'. generally relate to what ukraine's victory over russia is. everyone says that it should be a victory , everyone says that putin should be defeated , but there is still no single vision, well , there is none, but we have been talking about it for a long time, and we are trying to understand, but what is a victory

in in the understanding of the united states of america, what is victory in the understanding of great britain and germany, our main partners and our main allies. in the anti-putin conditional coalition, and what is the defeat of russia, or you understand, when they talk about the prospects in nato and the defeat of russia, are they the same thing, we should be in nato, and russia will be defeated, but we cannot be in nato, because we have occupied territories, no one wants to take us to nato until we defeat russia, that is, we walk in such a circle, well, first of all. i want to ask a counter question, there is such an understanding in ukraine, but in ukraine there is a general understanding that we can consider victory, well, it can still be understood, well, for example, for many, well, for example, for for me, it would be there, in particular , the return of the borders of 1991 would be a victory there, but the most important

thing is what is the strategy for achieving this victory in ukraine, well, i, for example, believe that a realistic victory for ukraine should be when ukraine would become a member of the north atlantic alliance. of the european union, on the contrary, first this, and then this can be considered, in my opinion, this is my subjective opinion, a victory, but in ukraine there is no such discussion before this, because this discussion should answer the question of victory strategies , about the terms, about when it can be achieved, we can't say that it will ever be achieved without naming at least some border regions, it is clear that the war is not predicted, but i will prove that in in ukraine, just like in the west... there is no such discussion, moreover, regarding the ukrainian victory in the west, there is probably more discussion than in ukraine, you understand, in the west they think in slightly different terms, they are rational people, they look at the war in ukraine, well, a little sideways, of course they are sympathize, they worry, but this is not their

war, because their wars are not in the trenches, and looking at it from the side, they calculate, they calculate different options, they calculate different options in... drawing from their own european history, and therefore from time to time we hear from our western colleagues, well, for example , there is a comparison with germany, when germany joined nato and was a member of the european union, western germany, eastern germany remained under soviet occupation for many years, and then joined germany, often there they are talking about a german version that can be applied to ukraine. sometimes they talk about the korean version, freezing of conflicts, integration of one of the parts, well, more, thank god. part of ukraine to the western world , when they say this, it offends many people in ukraine, because here we want a reckless victory, final, final, in the west, everyone reacts rationally, and there is nothing to be offended by them, you just need to learn to speak to them in their own way language, and if we don't talk about

the fact that we have to sacrifice ours there interests, then at least discuss different strategies, ending the war, different strategies that would not only guarantee that ukraine... joins nato and the european union, but also, for example, guarantee that there will be no more new war with russia, we need to talk about all this with them in their language, this conversation is still inevitable, because if we don't... talk to them in a language and reason, if we don't talk about different strategies, they will still do it, only without our participation , without our participation, they will speak as they can the end of the war in ukraine , there will be many publications, expert opinions, retired politicians, or active ones will publish their columns in the leading mass media, and we will be offended by this, so these statements should be taken simply, as such communication, in which you still have to participate, and you have to... choose different options, and any option, that is, any of our tasks for victory, must always be supplemented with an absolutely realistic

plan, how it can be implemented, well, for example, but we often discuss what to do with it submissions of the former secretary general of nato, that is to say, in the west from time to time we are offered to partially join nato, well, like, well, there is a territory under our control that will join immediately, but the rest of the territories later, and we are immediately angry. .. rejected this option, although it would be possible to look at this option in a different way, the fact that nato does not rule out that it can take part of ukraine under its umbrella already during the war. well, that's good, it doesn't mean that we 're giving up the rest of the territories, it just means that nato is already getting more involved actively before the war, and we could talk about it with our western partners. of course, so far such proposals have not been received officially, but they are still being talked about, so it is necessary to consider different options, of course, that... none of these options should involve surrendering the national interests of ukraine, surrendering sovereignty, but

all these options should be based on on realistic resources, on the understanding that we have to save the country, we have to save people, we have to save the economy, we have to categorically not give up our borders, but at the same time taking steps by the west that would guarantee that the west will more actively join the war, and maybe... step by step turn on its guarantees and strengthen the country's defense capabilities. mr. serhiy, today president volodymyr zelenskyy at a press conference with norwegian prime minister jonas har større said that during the 23rd year the russian army did not have a single victory, but moscow began to actively cooperate with countries around the world. about quoting zelenskyi: this year russia did not have a single victory, they are nothing could do, they could not occupy. villages, i'm not talking about cities, they couldn't do anything, but

they started working with countries, here's this phrase about the fact that they started working with countries, and the world is gradually starting to get into those circles in which in the 22nd year did not let in russian diplomats, russian politicians, well, you can mention the osce, the arrival of sergei lavrov at the ministerial meeting in skopje. and it means that the world is ready to gradually come along, or at least not to think that it is bad to sit next to those who are waging war, the biggest war in europe, and maybe now in the whole world? well , the world is changing, when the current security system was created, the share of, for example, the american economy in the world system was barely 70%. the participation of the west in the world economy was decisive then, and

the same in military technologies, now the world is different, and a significant part of the economy is occupied by the countries of the so-called global south, with which russia is trying to find a common language, this is primarily china and india, they are also changing technologies, they are becoming more and more accessible in the world, well, that's why this is happening struggle, it takes place on all platforms, it also takes place in the field. between the south and the north, it also takes place at the sites of various international structures, in particular the united nations, which needs reform of the security council, in particular at sites such as the osce, even nato, where we see that not all nato members support ukraine's membership in nato, well, there are two members in question, that's why this struggle, it is happening everywhere, and i think that it should not be unexpected for us, because the war against ukraine is not an attack. only against us, this is an attack on that world, on that world order, which was formed after

the second world war and categorically denies the possibility of annexation of one country, another country, that is why it is a war, and it is happening now everywhere, but i am still inclined to believe that after this great historical cycle of wars, the forces of good will win, because so far most of the technology, most of the money and most of society are on the side of democracy. those who have more developed institutions and, most importantly, have more and better education, are therefore strategically global the west will win, but of course we will have many battles along the way. and it has already happened that ukraine is at the forefront of this great battle. thank you, mr. serhiy, it was serhiy taran, a political scientist, and we continue our broadcast. let me remind you that during our broadcast we conduct a survey, we ask you about whether you had problems with communication yesterday and today. we ask you on youtube and we also ask you on tv, if

you are sitting in front of the tv, pick up your phone and vote. if you had problems with a connection, then... dial 0800-211-381, no, 0800-211-382. we are just curious to know how many of our viewers have experienced the absence of one of the mobile operators over the past two days. all calls to these numbers are free, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. next , we have a diplomat, an expert of the center for foreign and security policy of the center for defense strategies oleksandr khara. mr. oleksandr, i am you. congratulations and thank you for joining our broadcast. good evening, mr. sergey, thank you for the invitation. such a big foreign policy week, it seemed, and this is only the equator of this week. we can already see that zelensky visited argentina, the united states of america, norway, there was a summit in norway, this is a summit of the northern countries

of northern europe, with biden, zelensky discussed financial assistance. and the money to be allocated by the congress of the united states of america, there were many meetings in argentina, that is, a very, very tight schedule , the summit of the european union is still ahead, where we should open the door, well, i hope so, to the european community, let's probably start with biden and zelensky's meeting with biden, because this visit was unannounced to washington, and zelensky met with the speaker of the house of representatives. representatives johnson and met with other officials, in particular with the secretary of defense of the united states of america lloyd mostyn. it is clear that all high-ranking officials of the united states of america say that they want ukraine to win. everyone wants ukraine to win. biden for the second time, in the last week, he repeated that

it is impossible to allow putin to go further, because he can go further. knowing biden's background, he knows what he's talking about. what do you say, mr. alexander, who are trying to convince the most powerful politicians in the world, those who, on whom the future of not only the united states of america, but also the whole world depends, without exaggeration, if everything is, well, in their, in their field and the political field and under their leadership. well, you know, i keep repeating that ukraine became an internal political factor in the united states in 2016, and now it remains so, especially against the background of the fact that next year there will be elections for the president, and for the congress, and for the senate, part, third, and the house of representatives, and therefore of course we have to take that into account, and

right now, what happened before our eyes is that the republicans decided that... this is a very good opportunity to put pressure on joseph biden on the democrats in congress to get what they weren't able to get during trump's four years in office. i mean a change in migration policy, not just a strengthening of the border, a few hundred and a few tens of millions and then continue to build this wall, actually a fundamental laugh, and that is why the visit of president zelenskyi was timely, but... it is clear that his arguments, and of course, that this help is critically necessary for us, and that 90% of the money goes to the defense industry of the united states itself, and gives new weapons, builds new systems for the united states as well, and the charisma of our president, because at the beginning of the war he often visited this place and

achieved interesting results for quite a few days, that is, neither his arguments nor his... prism were able to change the desire of the republicans to obtain and use as pressure on biden this question of resolution means migration policy for them, by the way, this is quite literally two numbers, i will name 2.2 million illegal border crossings during the last year by these migrants and 75% of fentanol is a precursor for synthetic drugs, from which many people die every year more than 100,00 americans, so it's a really painful problem, here, but the far left wing of the democrats is unwilling to go to ... deterioration or tougher policies, such as deporting non-illegals or, therefore, changing this policy, catch and release

, that is, if they are caught, then they are given the opportunity to come to court and defend their rights, and usually , that means migrants do not return, actually we faced a long-lasting internal problem and the desire to solve it, including at our expense, although our friends , even on those who treat us more or less like this, they said that this aid, well, that is, ukraine receives it, i am sure that literally at the beginning of january there will be a vote, the question now depends on the readiness of joseph biden to make certain concessions, and it will be painful for him also from the point of view that his image, that is, his popularity rating has suffered some difficulties in connection with the attack of hamas on israel and the position that ... his administration is taking, that is, the extreme left wing, it is already turning its back on biden and criticizing him for the fact that he almost unconditionally supports israel, here even if he accepts a certain

position, let's say, a certain compromise on the border, he may still lose a little in the electoral plan. by the way, yesterday biden announced the allocation of 200 million dollars to ukraine, he called on congressmen to come to an agreement and make a decision. regarding the allocation of funding to ukraine, which is about 61 billion dollars, and he said that there is no need to give putin a christmas present. let's hear what biden said. supply ukraine with critical weapons and equipment as long as we can, including the assistance

i just approved for critically needed additional air defense interceptors, artillery, and munitions, but without additional funding, we are rapidly ending our ability to help ukraine respond to the challenges it faces in its war with putin. biden in... twice, i emphasize this for a reason, twice in the last 10 days, says that putin can go further, he can pass through ukraine and approach the eastern border of nato, that is, to poland, and this is a danger, because when he addressed the congressmen a week ago, he talked about the fact that it is necessary to pass this aid package to ukraine, because we do not want, if you do not want american ... soldiers to fight on the european continent, given the fact that biden, as i will repeat, once again, always says things that

are verified, it is clear that based on some intelligence, as it was on the eve of the attack of the great, you remember how he said at the briefing, the journalist asked him if he could putin has yet to postpone his decision on attack on ukraine, he said: "no, he has already decided everything, he just turned around and left biden, but given the level of awareness, what do you think, that is , biden, well, he is not bluffing in this case, he says what he surely knows, well, i think so, first of all there is general intelligence data, plus, of course, putin's plans are clear, and you know, for me, what is more revealing is not even what he says, but what happened in germany, that is, during the last week and a half .first was the foreign security council article, it's so powerful analytical center, where they said that it would take 5-10 years for, well, depending on how this war with ukraine ends, russia

will regain its strength and be ready to attack one of the nato member countries, that is, the germans are always quite careful, this putin-fersteers, i.e. those who seem to know and have always been soft on him, but they say this way , so literally... this week there was a meeting of the social democratic party, there they also said that it is necessary to prepare in military sense to a possible conflict, one with the key german military said that , probably, most likely we will have to fight with russia again, that is, we see that the germans, who are very careful about their statements, they already understand that war, well, it is not inevitable. but if they don't prepare, then of course they can't prejudge it, and of course the same thing is happening in the united states, but apart from our, let's say, the main

supporters in the form of... the democrats and mr. biden, there are republicans of all stripes , and the most important thing, of course, is trumpists and their hardened core, who want anything to stop this aid, and of course what they are trying to manipulate, they just create such, you know, a false dilemma that either the border, or ukraine, or saving the lives of americans there, in some state there is the problem with dangerous moves is to give this money to ukraine and it seems to be stolen by oligarchs and so on, that is, in principle, they are playing with these things, by the way, literally just these days , together with the ukrainian president, there was a landing party of hungary in the united states of washington, for with the participation of the heritage foundation, which was once a respected conservative think tank, now they are playing such

a role as a platform for trumpists. so there was a landing party from hungary, and in fact the main message of this landing party was that aid to ukraine should be stopped. that is, we see that hungary plays the same role in the european union and in nato, they say that it is necessary to stop this war by throwing ukraine under this ice rink, but they also try to influence and problabize these ideas, which are very good, to things, among the isolationist republicans, they are widespread, that is, there is such and such... a moment in the current situation, by the way, scholz, whom you mentioned, the federal chancellor of germany, said literally the following: putin is determined to bring ukraine to its knees and appealed to allies not to reduce support for ukraine. putin, as before, is determined to bring ukraine to its knees by military means, said olaf scholz. the russian president says he is betting

on international support for ukraine will decrease the danger that this calculation may work cannot be dismissed, he warned, is it clear, mr. oleksandr , to all partners, our international partners, that putin is ready to go all the way to the end and to the very eastern border of the north atlantic alliance, that he is ready to enter europe troops, well, in some perspective, this does not mean that in 2020... the 24th year, maybe in 2025, because russia hopes that a new president of the united states of america will come in the 25th year, and this will allow he must putin means to do what he cannot afford to do under biden. well, we see that apart from our closest neighbors, well, i'm not talking about hungary and about its special position, trying to earn

some bonuses from the russian federation and... china, having access to european funds, and in fact it was unlocked for 10 billion euros of european funds, which were frozen due to problems with the rule of law and human rights in this country, not even from the point of view of hungary blocking aid to ukraine, and of course that they are horse riders, so hares, i don't know how they are actually parasites on nato security, because they are not a combat-ready unit, but they... block from the very beginning the aid to ukraine, the cooperation of nato ukraine, and also you well remember you see that they changed the legislation and prohibited the transportation of any aid even from third countries through their own territory, that is, in fact, orban is playing in the interests of the russian federation and is very active against us, but that is, well, returning to understanding. the baltic countries, poland, definitely yes, and so do we

we see that poland is arming itself at a powerful pace. plus, with the change of government, we see that they will be ready to have more dialogue with their nato allies in europe, and of course to build relations with the biden administration, which may leave this position in a year, and we see that the old europe , first of all, germany is changing its position, they understand that there may be a conflict. and they have already undertaken to support ukraine on a systemic basis in the long term, and this is a radical change of policy from germany, that is, they are looking at russia through the prism of ukraine and their allies in central-eastern europe, and not the other way around, as was actually the case since 1991, who from moscow looked at what is in the middle between russia and germany, that is, i think that such an understanding is there, is it in others, especially in southern europe? is it

difficult to say now?