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espresso in the afternoon every weekday from 8 pm to 10 pm. kanal spresso and ukrainian pen present their own title project with myroslava barchuk. a series of conversations with ukrainian and western intellectuals who analyze and comment on the most relevant social debates. what kind of news will be analyzed guests of the project this week, and actually, who will be the guest of the studio? we will find out already this sunday. definitely. topics will be relevant, guests - special. proper names with myroslava barchuk. sunday: 17:10 at espresso. we continue our saturday political club, khrystyna yatskiv and vitaly portnikov. let's talk about the european integration of ukraine. this week is, one might say, historic, landmark. our guest is arseniy yatsenyuk, prime minister of ukraine in 2014-16. head of the kyiv security

forces, congratulations, mr. arseniy, congratulations, congratulations you and khrystyna, i congratulate you and your audience , of course, you signed the part of the association agreement that already put an end, one might say, to ukraine's euro expectations, after the maidan of 2013-14, the very signing of this first part of the agreement showed that we are moving in this direction, however, in order to gain the opportunity to negotiate. it took 10 years from the european union, is it too much or too little? well, mr. vitaly, this is a lot, of course, but i will tell you briefly what happened 10 years ago, when, by the way, the association agreement was signed, because i signed the political part of the association agreement with the european union , it was just after the maidan , the government had just been formed, there was a complete lack of governance in the country, nothing is functioning at all, i am coming to the council of the european union to hear from our people. .. european friends, so

how are we going to move towards europe? and you know, in fact, during the meeting of the council of the european union, they refuse to let us sign the agreement. well, this is a historical fact. and then i take my word, at that time, by the way, both merkel and cameron were there, and tusk was there then. and i say: tell me, please, and then how to return to kyiv, with what to return to kyiv, and what to say to the people of ukraine, who are under the flags of the european union, which are rarely used in the member countries of the european union. of the union, fought for our european future, and then, as a matter of fact , a political decision was made, with the understanding that if the european union does not support the signing of the agreement, then the question arises, in general, on what values ​​does it stand european union? so it was 10 years ago, and what has happened now evokes certain parallels in me, because, as it were, you can say that this is really a great victory for the first. the turn of the european union itself,

when they overcame orban's veto to begin the negotiation process regarding ukraine's accession to the european union. i emphasize once again, 10 years have passed since we signed the association agreement, and on the other hand, we have to look at things realistically, yes, this is a historic decision for the european union and for ukraine, so that return ukraine to the bosom of europe. but there may still be years, years, years and dozens of vetoes by orban and others on the way to this decision, so i simply ask everyone to understand correctly that this decision is an unequivocally positive political signal, but the road to full membership of ukraine in the european union is very, very long long, and here i will give another analogy, as the minister of foreign affairs in 2007, i signed it then. the agreement on the simplification of the visa

regime, well, of course, journalists remember this agreement, because according to this agreement there was simplified visa regime for many categories of citizens, including journalists. since 2007, we spent 10 years trying to sign a visa-free regime, not a simplified visa regime, and my government then fulfilled 141 requirements of the european union, and in the 16th year we completed the technical procedures, and only in the 17th the visa-free regime was finally opened, that is , imagine the scale of the problems, the visa-free regime is about the same, and... and ukraine's membership in the european union, well, i don't have enough hands to say the scope problems that will have to be solved during the negotiations with our european partners so that ukraine becomes a member of the eu, not to mention a lot of problems, the key problem is how the war will end, i would

start with this in general, so that it is ukraine that conducts these negotiations. mr. arseniy, if i understand you correctly, what a big question hangs over our perspective member. in the eu, the result of the war with the russian federation, and the fact that negotiations about our accession are now starting, does not guarantee us it at all, if we do not win? christina, it's a shame to admit it, but it's not that it's a shame, you have to admit the facts, you have to, you have to live in the real world, and in this real world, russia is fighting against ukraine. in the whole real world, the war criminal vladimir putin, a few days ago at his... conference on his reassignment, clearly repeated all these inhuman and terrible theses in relation to ukraine, more precisely, he once again said that he wants to seize the entire ukraine, and by the way, look at how this monster's tone has changed, then he sat in diapers

for a year, and now after the congress of the united states did not find the strength to vote for a decision that... primarily concerns the national security of the united states of america. and the roles and places of the united states of america in the world coordinate system. this 61 billion dollars is nothing. with the consequences of his non-voting. the second is the same for the european union. i would be much more, i would say, positively disposed to our ether with you, if only for the political decision to start negotiations. countries of the european union was a decision was made which is very clear, which , you know, concerns specific things, money today, and 50 billion euros for 4 years was also not voted, and all our friends know very well that the law of ukraine on the state

budget, which was voted, is the only paper, because there is no money, as of today, and i understand how the ministry of finance will still manage january, february and... it is clear that there are reserves of the central bank, which in an emergency situation will have to be burned in order to fulfill the budget obligations, well, but this does not solve at all no problem, because in principle this means that ukraine is not able to maintain the economic situation in such a situation, and ukraine, not receiving financial and military aid, will then correspond to the theses that i read yesterday on cnn, on cnn they are already writing: and this such, you know, a bad soul , he has been talking for a long time about the fact that, well, you know, if the west does not help ukraine, then ukraine will lose, eureka, here, they are actually counting how long we can hold out, it's true, well, it's some kind of theater , this is not even a theater

of the absurd, it is a theater of history in general irresponsibility, you can draw parallels, certain parallels, for example, in the united states of america in... the eighth year , the marshall plan was going just as hard, extremely hard, and by the way, the paradox is that the republicans, 20 republicans, in the senate of the united states of america, voted against the marshall plan at the time, selling the same word-for-word messages about the inexpediency of supporting a free europe, as individual hungarian republicans are now selling messages about the inexpediency of supporting ukraine. but in as a result, a decision was made, and as a result of this decision , the world order, which is now destroyed after the second world war, was actually fixed. and it is clear that when we talk about it in the three of us and your audience, we will not

solve these problems, but at least our task is to say how these problems should be solved and, in general, what is on the agenda for ukraine today. ah-ah therefore , the question of war is the key, i will tell you as frankly what worries me the most now and why i would applaud the most, it is a decision to provide. ukraine, not just prospects, but ukraine's membership in nato. and now i always listen to vitaly very carefully, and i have a problem with vitaly that i cannot argue with him, because i agree with him on all issues, but i wanted to have one such discussion with him, maybe on this ether, one discussion regarding the fact that vitaly, you always say that negotiations as such are unrealistic as of today, and here i agree with you, as with putin. negotiations are currently unrealistic because he cannot see these negotiations

, it is not clear what to talk about, it is hard for me to imagine negotiations where ukraine talks with russia about what russia agrees to, you withdraw from ukrainian territories, pay reparations, ukraine becomes a member of nato, ukraine becomes a member of the european union, putin goes under military tribunal, that is, i don't see this situation, but i wanted to ask you about the second model, and why, if our western allies, nato, member states. of the european union, have not played the same game, may say the game incorrectly, but would not go with the correct one by, uh, turning to russia, saying , look, we have made a political decision, ukraine will be a member of nato, period, we are not discussing this decision with you, but within the framework of this decision, we offer you to sign, for example, a new agreement between russia and nato member countries, the first, second, new agreement. on the control of conventional weapons in europe, thirdly, a new agreement

is launched, this is the limitation of strategic nuclear weapons, fourthly, there is a new agreement on ee aikin, well, that is, cyber security, then we propose a mechanism that compensates losses in ukraine, that is 300 billion of yours there , that means they will work there... or 20 years, the funds that go from these 300 billion go to pay ukraine, after ukraine receives full compensation, that means then maybe we will consider the return of your funds, i can moderate for a long time, but here i am interested in vitaly's position on this issue, i just want, i have only one question, why should russia agree to this, and i can tell you for sure, that she would not agree under any circumstances, they offered her, she did not agree on what to do next, and i will tell you, do next, because putin did almost the same thing when he proposed the so-called

nato agreement, where there is no nato expansion, that is, i would do it in the place of the free world, understanding that putin will not agree, but in the world's media, we say that we wanted a truce with russia, just such negotiations. we wanted to listen to russia's position, we offered them what we could offer them, and russia refused it, so we once again confirm our political decision regarding the need for ukraine's membership in nato, if russia ever wants to return to this issue, well , please, we are ready to sit down at the negotiating table, i can, i can explain to you, what is the difference between russian and western approaches, russia, when planning proposed this... approach is completely unrealistic, that no russians, former soviet republics can ever

be members of nato, that armed forces must be withdrawn from the territory, she said: if you do not agree to this, we will be forced to carry out measures of a military-technical nature, that is, such proposals make sense if you are then ready to fight, but putin demonstrated that he is ready to fight if these proposals are not accepted, he knew... that the west would not accept them and was just preparing them as foundation for war. what will the west do? well, the west will say: we will accept ukraine into nato, we will do everything, if the west is not ready to fight alone, then these proposals do not make sense. that is why, vitaly, i want that if the west would theoretically agree to such a model, the west i would hereby approve. we are ready to fight for a new member of nato, which is ukraine. well, they are not ready, mr. arseny. that's what the problem is, how to make them ready, how to make them ready , that's what we're talking about, that is, whether

it's ready, whether it's possible to hold negotiations, theoretically, of course it's possible, but the conditions of these negotiations, the so-called negotiations, i don't even know i know, i don’t even know if it is correct to call it negotiations, maybe it would be correct to call it if there was political will to the event, the establishment of a new world okay, well, let's raise the bar , you and i understand that... now some secret negotiations at the level of the special services there, at the level of someone else, are actually being held between the west and russia, we don't know this, but we understand what they can be about there to talk, some che some some... there you remember how during the cold war there are of course some back channels there, some red phones are working there and objectively what is happening at the level of development, at the level of the military leadership there, what about they say, well , vitaliy, i'm not interested in conspiracy, that's it and i do not advise anyone to engage in conspiracy theory , i think that as of today they

talked about there not being a nuclear strike, they talked about a de-escalation of some kind, about a warning... about the probability of this nuclear strike, and with regard to ukraine, i think , that now there are no specific negotiations. i would like to ask you then, about viktor orbán, we have already talked about him, you have worked with him, you generally understand how to work with viktor orbán, what is the point of all these conversations with viktor orban. look, it's true, i 've worked with them and met, first of all, what i see, it's not a win for europe now. postponing a decision is not solving a problem. and orbán has clearly shown himself dozens of times, and he has shown himself in the most difficult issue, in addition to the political, financial, economic issue, it is about 50 billion, he will continue to play, and i think that his game will be aimed at only one thing: prevent ukraine from becoming a member of the european union, period, and i have no

doubts, unlike fico, with whom i also worked, he is the prime minister of slovakia, and when fico became prime minister... then there were a lot of exclusively negative articles about him, i am not going to whitewash him in anything, i will say only one thing that when it was necessary, then we managed with his government to start a reverse flow of gas despite the fact that, well, in fact it was against russia, despite the fact that it was not directly in the interests of slovakia itself, but then with our american friends we managed to do it and fitso in princes in principle now himself led... by tacit consent, and he, at least he doesn't get anywhere, so i emphasize once again, going back to orban, i don't see any other game of his than the game of raising the stakes for himself and lowering the stakes for ukraine, and what are the differences between the positions fico and orban, they have different economic interests , that's how when you persuaded fico, what could you hope for, well, you know, when

they slandered fizo, i was not the only one who slandered them, but they slandered together with our... american partners, i i think that the level of connections and dependence, and both fizo and orban are somewhat different in relation to first of all to russia. ugh. finally , please, mr. arseny, after all the battles in the united states, around aid to ukraine, israel and taiwan, the senate continues negotiations on the additional request of the white house in the amount of 106 billion. and senate majority leader chuck schumer of... democrats says that senators still aim to come back to this topic in general literally next week, does that mean that eventually some kind of internal consensus solution will be found, no, look, they can vote, there's only one a little problem, the senate is not deciding this, the lower house has to vote,

and the lower house can't do it tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow, or next week, so m... to remove all the procedural points, what do i think? i think the united states of america will make a bipartisan decision to support ukraine, i do, well, i can't say for sure, yes, but my sense that this $61 billion will be voted, my sense that the level of support will fall, and... that the election races in the united states will be significant influence the level of support for ukraine. my feeling is that if another president is elected, it is likely to be from the republican side, it will be trump, not for nothing, the senate in its decision, which they voted just a few days ago, they approved the defense budget of the united states. think about it, for the first time the senate, in its decision

to approve the defense budget of the united states of america, prohibited the president from leaving. with nato, that is , this already means that the senate of the united states is theoretically preparing for what, for example, trump may become president and may decide to withdraw from nato, so in summary, both the european union and the united states of america are highly likely to accept these financial aid packages, this is the first, second, all other financial aid packages will go to... dozens times more difficult than they are going today, thirdly, it will be seriously affected by the level, the general level of support among the american people and among europeans, because... the phrase about the so-called fatigue from war, well, it's just a psychological state of each person, when people begin to focus more on their own problems than

on other people's, as they think, and thirdly, excuse me, fourthly, without military aid, that is , directly not only financial, but key military aid, we cannot win this war , and here the entire military-industrial complex of the member countries... nato and ukraine must work for this. here. the fifth is the elections to the european parliament. and we will have a new european commission and we will have a new european parliament literally in a few days there for a little more than six months. and this should be taken into account, and it will also affect the process of negotiations between ukraine and the european union. well, the sixth and most important. apart from us , no one will solve our problems. in order to win this war, there must be. full one hundred percent internal mobilization, without this, even financial aid is unlikely to give ukraine a 100% chance

to win, so the first and most important thing is internal unity and internal mobilization. well, if we talk about all these political changes, do you think that the political changes themselves, that will take place in the united states, in europe, they will bring to power people who will not be inclined to negotiate with russia. here the question is, will they be able to come to an agreement with her, what are the chances of the same donald trump, let's imagine that he became the president, he will agree on something with putin, you understand, vitaly, here i am not completely objective, because in although my glasses are transparent, sometimes i wear rose-colored glasses, that is, i remain a certain romantic in terms of the values ​​of the free world, the ideals of freedom, what the united states is the leader of this free world, so... that the united states cannot bow to dictators, that is, i live in this paradigm, and now coming back to realism, could it be

theoretical that the united states will start some new wave of negotiations with russia, theoretically, anything you want can happen, and the same can happen in the european union, that is, what percentage of this depends on the mass of events that... will happen, but what does this mean? it means that the dictators will then win, it means that in short, in short perspective, maybe someone will even think that this is the right decision, come on , so the so-called peace is not peace, it is a surrender for ukraine, but in fact it will not be a surrender of ukraine, in fact it will be a surrender of the free world and the leader of the free world, which is still the united states of america. thank you, thank you, mr. arseniy, arseniy yatsenyuk, head of the kyiv security forum, prime minister of ukraine in 2014-16 was in touch with us. we will now

talk about how the government is changing in poland, we have myroslav cheh on the phone, a polish politician of ukrainian origin, a member of the seimas of the second and third term, congratulations, mr. myroslav, good evening, congratulations, the government of poland has finally changed before there... another government of matiusz morovecki, donald tusk again became the prime minister of the republic poland. how will relations between poland and ukraine really change, because at the same time we hear that the quotas will be preserved in the near future, and that the strikes of these carriers may continue again, and we expected that all this would be resolved quickly, well, first of all, this will happen. .. it was quickly resolved, but you give it in order , i was a little surprised to comment on the words of my

predecessor, former prime minister arseniy yatsenyuk, who said that in a year there may be changes in america's attitude towards helping ukraine, that misfortunes may happen when trump wins on elections, well, there is still a year left, well, less than... a year before the elections in the united states, this is a huge amount of work, after a huge amount of time, ukraine receives, receives both support and financial support from the united states, and receives financial the support of the european union, which is financial support for the perspective of four years until 2027, that is, the investment of the european union for the long term. ukraine regarding relations with ukraine, as it will be, and as the new polish government, the coming to power of donald

tusk again will affect it, well, already affect it. because the european union does not take into account, somehow, contrary to all the predictions of skeptics, that orban will block everything there, orban will decide everything, and what a difficult situation in europe, europeans do not understand anything and so on, adopted the fateful decision on the start of negotiations on the accession of ukraine and moldova to the european union, the candidate status of georgia, and as soon as possible. of the process of negotiations on the accession of the western balkan countries to the european union, which you vitaly know very well, understand the weight of this decision, and we understand that this is how it will happen, that is, it is already visible, and central and eastern europe, contrary to expectations, forecasts and politics, and you the invested billions of dollars and the involvement of the entire agency did not yield and... changed in poland

the trajectory of the victorious course of populism in this part of europe, and let's hope in europe, europe as a whole, this is firstly, secondly, there will of course be problems with agriculture and there will be problems with carriers and with something else, and what does this result from? well, i'm going to join your newsletter for the news from the european council summit and the decision. about the start of negotiations on ukraine's accession to the eu, and you know how they talk about ukraine as a great country, the agricultural sector, that is, they understand that joining the eu has huge advantages, competitive advantages and huge potential, and it must be looked at, agriculture in ukraine is already competitive today not only in europe, but

on world markets, and now imagine: when ukraine joins the european union, it will receive, according to the laws of the policy and finance and budget formation of the european union, within two budget perspectives, and this is 14 years, 170 billion euros of direct subsidies, these are not loans, these are not some loans and so on, these are direct subsidies for the development of agriculture, how to use it? ukraine is not ready at all to such negotiations. poland is ready, poland wants to protect its agriculture from competition, competitive, competitive state, competitive country, which is ukraine. the ukrainian side is generally not ready for these negotiations. i would, on the other hand , communicate with the polish politicians of the new government, there are many of my friends there, i am more than convinced when i sit down for negotiations. somehow, such negotiations

will begin, that's it... and both ukraine and poland need it, then all problems will be solved, because the coming to power of tusk and the new coalition means one thing, that there will be substantive conversations, there will be no attempt to justify playing the anti-ukrainian card in order to win 2-3% in the elections, additional, but there will be substantive conversations, and this is a huge advantage, that is, in essence, tusk will be engaged in defending interests. own citizens, but at the same time not to really use the neighbors in this game, but mr. miroslava, a very bright quote from donald tusk: i don't want to hear about fatigue from ukraine anymore, and mr. vitaly asked how his premiership will affect poland's relations in general and ukraine, and i will ask you whether the trend of aid

and commonwealth can once again set tusk's prime ministership. precisely for our country , of course, well, then we will speak, well , frankly, volodymyr zelensky, when he had a period, and a justified period of very friendly relations with the president, completely neglected the polish opposition , including donald tusk, that is, we must understand that there is one side and the other side in this flight... process and this political process must be restored from two sides, i am very pleased that both donald tusk and volodymyr zelenskyy exchanged very good statements, posts on tweets, but posts on tweets will not replace bilateral relations, and these bilateral relations should be formed on such parity, on the principle of parity, that is, one side, one country and the other country has...