carol of the bells might not be, the chapel under the guns of košice, is going west, you know , i can’t get it in my head after all, at the beginning of the 19th year, the bolsheviks are already approaching kyiv, on our territories, on our lands, terrible fights, here people go on tour, aren't these the tours that we imagine now, but how it happened then, i understand how important this, well, cultural diplomacy was. i would now call it some kind of musical landing or cultural landing, as it is now then it was called cultural-national propaganda, but even in the then and western terminology, there were no giota-institutes of the british councils, and such a term cultural diplomacy did not exist for 100 years in any country in the world, that is, it was usually cultural propaganda, it’s just that today this word has such a negative meaning, then also in principle, here, but yes, well, that is, it was perceived as political. as a political

mandate, absolutely everyone and oleksandr koshyts, well, everyone understood that there was a war, and there was a diplomatic, well, struggle for recognition of independence, i repeat, stetsenko, kosha, these are government officials, they are aware of the political situation both in ukraine and in the international arena, that is why they understood that they were going to paris, where the prime ministers, us president woodrow wilson, the prime minister is there. of great britain, the prime minister of france, everyone knew these names, even among singers, they understood that they were singers, going to convince western politicians that ukraine exists, that we are a separate nation, that we have our own culture, as well as our events today, we experienced, we know these first days, weeks.

er, yes, when we were in kyiv and there was all this threat, and here they were also gathering literally at that time, although despite the fact that there was little time, they made announcements all over ukraine, and in local newspapers, there were published announcements for singers from different regions to go to kyiv for auditions and gather, there was no formed choir, they started gathering people at this moment, so they held auditions on january 1 and... petliura said that a choir should be formed, but quickly. january 5 already a draft of the law was written, that is , creative and organizational preparations were carried out at the same time, and there were, it seems, up to half a thousand singers who passed this audition stage, and exactly 100 singers were chosen to be part of this ukrainian republican chapel, republican, why? because the ukrainian people's republic, that is, it was necessary to declare even through the name of this choir that... the country is

a democratic state, that it is a republic, it is the first months of the 19th year, and the offensive is already underway bolsheviks, and those who can evacuate from kyiv, and the prime minister, invites a wagon to his place, let's go, and the cat leaves with him, they sit in kamianets podilskyi, because there was the seat of the ukrainian government, and stetsenko sits further. in kyiv and continues to carry out petliura's orders and tries to collect the remnants of people who did not flee, you understand, and he, on the last day before the bolsheviks came to kyiv, on the last train that had been going there for something like two weeks, and this and that there were adventures, that is, how many, there are already actually there was almost a breakdown, because i was also working with the archive, and i found such an interesting telegram from kirill stetsenko, who took... not 100

singers, but 38, that is, not all of them went there, and it was just the best voices, well, those which košice considered to be the best voices, there , in particular, from the opera house were in favor, they did not leave, that is, at each stage of the carol of the bells, it could not be, i will say so , yes, absolutely, and that is a miracle , that they managed on the last day, that no one bombed them, then they constantly moved there on foot, it was cold, winter, that is, the train derailed due to the snow, and those choristers who reached kamianets podilskyi, where koshets was, they disappointed him very much, he said that you brought me a rag, a choir rag, a choir rag, they sang so badly, well, they were not of the same level as those who were recruited at first, you understand, but then thanks to the genius of the košice pedagogue. and they still picked up

in galicia on the way, and they decided they even had a meeting there, whether we go or not, well, what to do, and simply they even decided by voting that we were going, there was one such roman kirchev, no. we go at least even on foot, but we go, why? in order not to fall under the bolshevik occupation and for them to understand that if they fall under the bolshevik occupation, we know what the russian occupation is, they will be called to the ranks of the red army, you understand how much this story resonates with us today, that is why they fled from the russian occupation to free europe in order to win the independence of ukraine, to win that they, that this is not a commercial trip, tour or just entertainment. informative, let's say so, but it was really an act of self-sacrifice for the sake of saving ukraine in the hope that the west would listen and help. many of these singers were not singers, but there were employees, i.e. there were journalists, representative employees of various

ministries there, there was a requirement that these choristers should speak languages, that they should have propaganda skills, yes, that is, they should be able to write press releases and so on. different communication skills, so there are memories of being accepted into the choir because i know german and french, going to europe, having to to have some kind of repertoire, because plans to draw attention to oneself are good, there is a generous one and what else is in the program, well, there were modern works, works by statsenko, leontovych, koshyts, lysenko, and these were original works, or arrangements of folk songs, i.e. basically this... they were it was authentic, i.e. by design, well, obviously there was even a basis, at the basis of authenticity, i.e. folk songs, but these were the processing of masters, baskets and stetsenko really wanted to show the event that this not a folklore collective, but that it is a composer's work

of the current modern character and that ukraine is very original, unique against the background of other european nations, with its folk and... that is , they tried to combine this combination that we are authentic, but even their clothes on european stages were so aristocratic, they did not perform in in such national costumes, this is already when they went to america, when they already won the recognition of europe as a modern european singing nation, after their concerts in thrace, in white silk essences, they, at the numerous requests of european critics have already put on national ukrainian uniforms, here we will make such a spoiler, they were waiting for crazy success, correct me, 200 cities in europe, and in america, both in the north and in the south, and this is how they met the band that was written about, my editor serhii shinkarchuk

made the following selection of quotes from the newspapers of that time. thank you, yulia, music critics and reviewers around the world were delighted with ukrainian song diplomacy. czech musicologist. regent yaroslav kzychka noted: it is hard for the hand to write criticism when the heart sings praise. the ukrainians came and won. unfortunately, we did not know about them for too long and were deeply offended when we unknowingly and without information united them against their will into one whole with the russian people. in switzerland , tribune geneva correspondents claimed that the soul of an entire nation speaks through their mouths. this song is the best language of the forty million people who do not want bolshevism or tsarism, but do. the audience greeted him with a standing ovation, standing and calling for an encore. after the performance of the band in berlin, the german professor said: "this ukrainian hashish is the sweetest poison."

american playwright clay green wrote: "they put ukraine on the artistic map of the world as a music-loving nation." this is at a time when we considered it empty. the land of wandering cossacks and rural people. the brazilian literary critic coelho neito was generous with compliments: "sing, charming ukraine, sing chebetushko, scatter the songs of your sons throughout the world, the time will come when the spring you are waiting for will come." even the president of mexico, alvaro obergon, who lost his hand in the war, in a conversation with the choir director oleksandr kosyts, claimed: "for the first time in life, i regret that i don't have a second hand , and i can't clap for you."

soviet ukraine did not know anything about him, you must be talking about translations. i read your interviews, it turns out that the secret was not only in generosity, or in the performance of other songs, and also in the approach, because petliura was such a good, well, such a show business manager, in fact, what was the secret of the band, why they were written about, talked about, and there was so much attention, well, the treasury came, not everyone knew who the treasury was from, where in ukraine, and perceived it only as a part of the empire, but they went and they listened, but the secret was precisely in the high artistic level, that's what... what is cultural diplomacy, it is when art is ahead of politics, and simon petliura, who was

at concerts, and he has been since 1901, here it is worth mentioning that thanks to to mykola lysenko, simon petlyura became a politician because he was kicked out of the seminary due to the fact that he, as the conductor of the seminary choir, simon petlyura, conductor and skripal, and he also liked to sing, he invited mykola lysenko, then a separatist composer, this is... 1901 , and for this unauthorized performance, petliura was expelled from seminary, that is, petliura knew music, understood music and understood that music would make an impression on europeans, and he was also an art critic, journalist and editor himself for many years, that is, he understood what laws and information policy are, that every concert music critics come, who then write reviews, so this idea worked at a time when it was very difficult to get... the then official ukrainian diplomatic representation of any interview,

any speech in the press, even an extremely interesting and telling episode , specifically from the history of this tour, the head of the ukrainian diplomatic mission in belgium did not let him in, but after the choir's concerts in brussels , he received permission to come to brussels, well, to the place of his destination, that is, the choir opened the door even to the official one. the diplomatic mission of ukraine at that time, but the band , despite what was happening here, was wildly successful in europe, and they are going overseas, and there is a concert at carnegie hall, how is that, it’s the dream of any musician, well, just that success in europe, and the fame of the koshac choir spread to america, and it was for american impresarios. a very favorable situation to invite

the košice choir to performances, you see, so it happened that they did not receive weapons, and one of the reasons is also because, well, what tina said that the state was not officially recognized as ukrainian, but the second reason , that the bolsheviks had already taken power here on the territory of ukraine and the unr was already in exile, so to speak. but this ideological struggle for the recognition of ukraine as a nation was completed very successfully in america and it is not for nothing that the most prestigious hall, you can say carnegie hall in the world, it was given to the choir of košice, it is very difficult to get there, and max rabinov, a well-known american impresario, helped them precisely in this, because he... at choir concerts in paris and, as he later said in the american press, in five different countries,

he heard this singing, and then he said: "america should know this beautiful art, but what is important, going back to this story, ukraine is under occupation, the government is in exile, but the fight is on the reconquest of ukraine, and therefore, when the choir goes to carnegie hall, simon petliura writes a letter to oleksandr koshyts." my favorite letter, which he already knows today, he is known to many, where he notes when you will be interviewed, that is, interviewed , he asks the conductor: speak inconspicuously, ukrainian music, a song, independent, its own, peculiar, different, is part of an independent country, that is, it is such an eloquent quote, a document that this is what the head of state was talking about on the eve of the premiere. ,

you know, i'm very surprised. because now we are too we live in times of war and we can compare and draw parallels. the russians managed to translate plyvekach and distort the sacred song for us. they are red viburnum. they tried to translate something there, they didn’t steal from us, they stole, they tried, they stole, very, very correctly, literally, well, that’s all, the tour ended, the choir of the village in simon petliur donated money to the army, but alas, nothing, no one recognized anyone, simon petliura was shot dead in paris, and in 1925-26, shchedryk already sang not

in the ukrainian choir, but in the russian choir. choir in new york rashian art quire. i also managed to find this in the materials. and in what language did they sing? and they sang in ukrainian. but they annotated it as a russian folk song. well, because it was a very famous such musical - song of flame, and by the way, who was one of the composers of this musical? george gershwin. but already in 1925, george hershil worked as a philanthropist. because in this musical, a generous man sounded. in the ukrainian language, but it was titled as a russian folk song, well, it is attributed to him and here is the use of another such an important song for us, oh, the dream is coming, well, that's what they say, they don't say it without reason, because after all, i've already started to tell an important secret, that shchedrik was

a hit in europe, in america , koliskova was a hit, oh, i'm sleepy, that is, actually , that's koliskova. which has this melody , which, well, which we recognize in soumer, i will remind, maybe, oh, sleep chimer, what you remind, i will combine, this oh, hodison, i hold back, because this is a lullaby that i sing to a child, those the notes themselves, only in a different order, you see, and the hersh. he had a great sense of the market once he saw that this song is so successful in america, why not use it, but look, he didn't make the sedrick, who made the sedrick the song, i mean, oh, i dream about gershwin, but what a sedrick, who grabbed the sedrick and made it an important song for americans, they don't even know that it's leontovych , well, you're probably talking about the translation

into english, i think so, yes, and it was also ukrainian, by the way, the conductor was new, but he understood , that this song should be spread among americans, and what do you think the americans, they didn’t want it, but they managed to steal a boon from us, when i was in america in the 90s, everyone here sang jingle bells in ukraine, in america everyone sang, boon boon, only in english , petro vilgovskyi did it, yes, petro vilgovskyi, ukrainian, emigrant and. emigrants, he did it in the 1930s, in 1936, he already published carol of the bells in the music publishing house carl fischer, and by the way, today we will say that it was appropriation by america, but no, in fact, he returned the ukrainian identity to this song, which was already quite popular in america, but i remembered that the first performance of shchedryk by a russian choir was already

attributed to him, that it was a russian song, then there was the first english-language version of shchedryk... in 932 , few people knew about it knows, the song by the blue birds , but it was stated that it is a translation from the original russian language, that is, always generous, when the tour ended, and it appeared, well, in american, in american musical culture, with the citation that it is a russian song , and peter vilhovsky noted in the score that this is a ukrainian carol, ukrainian carol christmas, well, it’s true, after all, it’s a generous one, in english, our generous one... has lost such authenticity, there are no swallows there, there are new year’s bells and a sense of foreboding of this holiday, which comes, but he got, he actually got such a huge fame, and always, when they talk about carol of the bells, they mention the movie home alone, as such a cult, and the fact that they don't mention leontovich, isn't it insulting? he is remembered, that is, well, after

after 1936, when ... the first premiere of kerl of zebels took place on american radio, then such a very well-known musical radio program, especially for educators, for music teachers, such premieres of new works took place there, and then vilkhovsky recalled , that after this premiere with his school choir, that's why he wrote the english text, because the children wouldn't sing in ukrainian, so he wrote the text for them in english, and he said that everything, all the music teachers in america from ... they bombarded him with letters with requests to provide it to send sheet music, he published this work, and then american choirs began to perform, and i found it in the press, in various announcements at the festival. the musical carol of the belles was performed, leontovych, well, it was almost always mentioned, that is, there was a double identification of leontovych-vilhovskii, well, or

leontovych, sometimes vilhovskii, such a triumph, first in europe, and then in both americas, the košice choir was still very cunning , they in each, in each country sang something local and thus bribed, that is, like modern stars absolutely, when flags are taken out at various concerts. different countries, that is, with this and that marketing approach, they are very good at it, but it wasn’t like that, you know, some well-thought-out technology, just oleksandr koshyts, even before they went on tour, he had an author’s musical project in kyiv tapestries , where he showed the kyiv public scottish carols, french songs, that is , he already in kyiv here gave a concert and presentation of european folklore, european music, and i cannot help but add to... such a cool case, how they went to america, so they performed at the hampton institute, where african-american students studied, then there was racial segregation, and after the concert of the ukrainians

, this local student choir performed there, african-american singing, this spirit of theirs, the cat simply, well, he was so fascinated by it singing that he wrote in his memoirs, called the composer and rector of this institute , robert nathaniel dett, to the stage and kissed him, and everyone was simply in shock. because it's 1922, it's not possible, it's segregation, it's not possible in one to talk, but who did it and will do it again, because the new york manager told him yes, don't do it again, he said he did it and will do it again, and he not only kissed him there, he, he made an arrangement of a very beautiful spiritual, listen to the lamps, and they performed this piece during the american tour, that is, the ukrainian choir popularized african-american folklore, but i will return the generous one... to karniygehodl after 100 years, as a ukrainian song, and finally as a ukrainian song, and and what is very important, on the level state initiative, because i was in

america, i talked, this question was constantly raised by the ukrainian diaspora, because even those choristers who remained after the tour in new york, they then began to hear in the 30s, 40s, 50s x years, how americans sing their song, and gave interviews, and talked among themselves that this is our song. and when this solemn anniversary concert took place in carnegie hall in 2022, it was very important that we as a state reminded the world that carol of zabels was born in ukraine. after five years of touring and the unr no longer existed, the philanthropist flew into the world, but how did his life end, how did the fates of his authors and the authors of the band develop, what happened to leontovych, to tetsenko and to košice, a very different fate in... to the states they didn’t go, they stayed in america , part of them succumbed to the invitation of the soviet

authorities to come back, they said, and it was just my grandfather’s older brother, petro stetsenko, who performed important roles and was a choir singer, and performed administrative functions, he returned, but here he was tortured in those years when the entire intelligentsia. exterminated in the 37th year and in those years when america sang kerelofel, i.e. this is the 37th year, we remember that it was the beginning of stalinist terror, mass repressions, kerel, christmas in america, terror in ukraine, well, that’s what happened to tetsenko, but ontovych was killed much earlier, in the 21st year, in january, and this is also the case, when the schedrik sounded there in the west, he was killed the same day, and i assume that there was a list of you... who worked in the ukrainian government and had high influence on the ukrainian consciousness, and leontovych 100% fell under this, under these two reasons why

the bolsheviks had to kill him, and stetsenko, by the way, told his wife, after this, this death of lentovich, his friend, and now it's my turn, but he died his own death, a year later, and he was hunted in the village of vepryk. near kiev , and he hid more than once, and if he hadn't hid, he would have been killed, and he knew it, so he was very attentive, and when he, confessing a typhus patient, he was already a priest at the same time, confessed e- it was the cause, and then he got infected and was seriously ill, and more came, which means that the chekists came for him again. and he couldn't run away into the forest, they just tracked whether he was faking, whether he could really be dying, going, and when they made sure that he was dying, they

made a report that... stetsenko is dead, everything is a shadow, or is it it is true that košice was also invited, as was petr stetsenko, yes , yes, that is, he too, he really wanted to, of course, of course, we understand, there was some story with košice, it is interesting, it seems, yes, he really wanted to, he really wanted to, and he has already, he has already conducted negotiations here in kyiv with the musical the institute, that he was taken to the department there, profeshevsky also returned, then many people already began to believe in the soviet government, this is the end, this is the 29th. chakhivskyi, who was shot, left in a train car, in his 37th year in sandermos, well, les kurbas and others, others, petro stetsenko, 37 years old, therefore, therefore, it was not possible to come to košice, it was simply not possible to come to ukraine, and it seems that there were some strange reasons, it seems they didn't let him in, they didn't

let him in, they guarded him. that's how he saved his life and lived to the deep end in deep old age and wrote a lot of memoirs, thanks to which we have so many such factual details, well, while they were greeted so magnificently abroad, did they know about this triumph in ukraine, because, well, probably in moscow, which had plans to recruit us, they knew there , what is happening, did they know about that success and did they understand what kind of work they had created, huh? yes , well, some information came out, yes, that is, at least in those territories that were still under control for a certain time, we are talking about the year 1919, there was some ukrainian press in kamianka, some information came out, some there was correspondence, such as with kyryll stetsenko , but in principle, well, there was already such an informational, obviously, blockade, both military and political, and therefore, well, no, the ukrainians did not know

about this triumph, and even there... in the 29th year, in fact, this was the year when košice wanted to return, and he published a collection of reviews in paris, of the 300 that i counted in the world, only 350, but even they were somewhat censored, because he really wanted them to send there, mentions of petliura, other, other things have already been removed there, so that, well, such a populist aspect, so that in the end to convey at least to the ukrainian people, look, our song gained world fame, that is, no, but only in the 60s in general. there was the first mention of oleksandr koshyts , the conductor who made ukraine famous throughout the world, soviet ukraine knew nothing about him, well, ukrainians were forbidden to mention him, and in the 60s, with the so-called thaw, yes, in the soviet encyclopedia the first mention appeared, but about him as a conductor who assumed nationalistic claims, this generous man continues to fly around the world and in fact this cultural diplomacy is

paying off. come and now, thank you very much for the conversation, tina also wrote a book about shchedrik’s research and made a movie shchedrik against the russian world, google it, find it , you have to watch it, you see what we have to tell here, we consider our conversation a spoiler, because there is much more information and about shedrak and about this cultural diplomacy, be sure to subscribe, be sure to like, be sure to comment, did you know about how our shedrak became popular, and actually, what was that chapel that ukrainian music 100 years ago, i brought into the world a political task, it was a paragraph, tina peresynko, kyrylo stetsenko, thank you very much for this conversation, see you soon.

chavorons approaching victory. and the cuckoo, a generous evening, a good evening, good people dear, flew around all the gardens. generous evening, good evening, for good people, in one and never happened, this christmas ukrainians make one, common wish.