except for the western lands, were for the preservation of the soviet union. i remember my emotions at the first founding congress of the movement. on the one hand, i was happy to see people who had come to fight for the future of the country, for independence. on the other hand, i was in pain. because before that i went to the congresses of the popular fronts of the baltic countries and saw the public support for what is happening. in tallinn on the first. in such a congress, i was stunned by how the whole country is preparing for the congress of the people's front of estonia, as the main event in the life of the estonian people. i understood that this was a nationwide movement. in kyiv, at the first congress of the movement, we were in a real aquarium. i remember how i left the congress and did not take off the blue-yellow badge that i had on my lapel, which was with her delegation. and participants

of the congress, and how they looked at me in the tram in kyiv, like some kind of monster that came out of nowhere, and it was creepy, because i didn't understand how it could be like that at all, and in any way, when i say this, i think that you and i understand one thing - to declare independence is completely different - to fill it with a real meaning, the meaning that, in one way or another, is an important part of any state and national construction, and i have always had the absolute conviction that russia does not perceive our statehood as real, and that the more or less peaceful existence of the ukrainian state will continue until the moment when our own... attitude to statehood,

as unreal, coincides with the russian vision, because russia has always believed that the former soviet republics just accidental temporary formations , that sooner or later they will become part of the russian world, that the main condition is that they do not run away, be in the cis, and then in the eurasian union, and somewhere else, and as soon as any of... those countries began to move in the other direction, it was immediately attacked from the end of the 80s to the beginning of the 90s, provocations were arranged in latvia, lithuania, estonia, troops in tbilisi, vilnius, baku, riga, everywhere where it was possible to act forces, inciting ethnic and territorial conflicts, which are now on new tragedies continue to explode before our eyes, as, say, in... karabash, after all, it all

started during the soviet union. transnistrian conflict, abkhazia, south ossetia. we always thought that it did not concern us. after all, as soon as ukraine began a clear movement in the direction of 2004. at first, they tried to speak with us in the language of the sabotage special operation, but already in 2014 they decided to speak in the language of real war. covenant. we use recipes not invented by putin: first , we turn the country into a state of the disabled, and if it does not understand, we change the government, well listen, what we saw in kyiv in february 2022, relatively speaking, azerbaijanis saw in the 90s, when the troops of field commander soret huseynov with russian weapons stood near the walls of baku.

because there was an idea that it was necessary to change the government to one loyal to the russians, maybe moscow did not get everything it wanted, but i mean that the recipe itself is the same, and as a result we came to a big war, again, the problem ours is, i would say state, that the majority of our population has never been in it believed, did not believe at all, in the possibility of russia attacking us. did not believe that as soon as we choose an independent path of development, it will mean that we will be spoken to in the language of aggression and destruction, and it seems to me that people in the post-soviet space still do not believe in this, i have seen and already cited the results of sociological a survey in kazakhstan, where 73% of respondents do not believe that russia can attack kazakhstan, and i think that you now believe, you understand that it is easy, you will think kazakhstan - yes kazakhstan, where it is not was, so in this sense it is... a real

problem, and the underestimation of this danger, i would say, is not only a state underestimation, but a general national underestimation, which was expressed in the results of the presidential and parliamentary elections. in 1019, she finally gave in. regarding the maidan itself and its results, to be concise, i think that a real event like the construction of a ukrainian political nation began on the maidan, which did not exist before the maidan of 2013-2014. i always wondered how a person of jewish descent would make it ukrainians to go beyond the framework of the ethnic project, in which they were always received by the russian empire. that ukrainians are exclusively a nation, an ethnic nation, and it has an absolutely clear border into which no one can cross, unlike the russians, unlike the poles, unlike the slovaks or the czechs, whoever and if someone

crosses this border, then he is some kind of weirdo, what is he doing there among them, they will trample him now, so i would say that it was the maidan of 13-14 years that became so destroyed, disappeared of this border, i always tell how i was at slavko vakarchuk's concert on the maidan and there was an anthem, he sang the anthem at the end, and i looked at my young colleagues standing in front of me, and they were singing this anthem and crying, and i suddenly i thought about something that no ethnic ukrainian would think about, by the way, i thought that there is not a single ethnic ukrainian among this group of people, but there is none, but they stand and cry, and this is the birth of a real ukraine, a political nation , in which people recognize ukrainian civilization cultural, historical, linguistic values, you understand, and it is such a nation that is the biggest threat to russia, especially when it started from the west and center, moving towards the east and south, and i think that everything that happened after that is happening today, it is

the coining and strengthening of this very political nation. we have a political nation. the state also remained only to protect and preserve it. thank you. thank you. there was another square. well, of course, we are not talking about the maidan, but there was another maidan in 2000 in the fourth and fifth years. and i remember very well how decisions were made then. then a delegation led by the president of poland kwasniwski arrived, and the negotiations continued. well, one of the delegates from the european union, we met with him, and he warned: "listen, you will be dispersed tonight." there is already a decision on the use of force against the participants of the then orange revolution. well, i warned my people, those who were there, at the lutheran. and

no one left, everyone started calling, the number of people only increased. this is one point about how it works, how it works. in ukrainian people the second moment is when we talk about the attempts of russia or the attempts of the russian empire to influence this or that nation. always the most textbook or the best example, it was the example of the relations of the russian empire of the polish-lithuanian commonwealth. thus, in the 18th century, even a few years before what was called the first division of poland, catherine ii regularly, through her ambassadors, conveyed very specific. requirements, in particular the preservation of the so-called liberum veto, i.e. the ability of any one member of the seimas to block a decision on a law of any importance, as in the house of representatives of the us congress, and we also see this, that is, what happened and

maybe now is happening in our parliament, well, what is happening now, i don't even know what, because there are no live broadcasts, yes, well, here in hall of the people's deputy. afedina, i think she will be able to tell what is happening there if something happens. so , the key story was, i think, both under yushchenko, and under kuchma, and under yanukovych, these or other attempts by the russian empire to impose mechanisms or models that would make it impossible a real non-declarative movement in the direction of what is called the european or euro-atlantic community. maybe i'm wrong, i want to believe, well, but at one time it showed up inside too clearly. the 18th century was still a few years before the first division of the polish-lithuanian commonwealth, and what is called the maidan, what is called the revolution of dignity, also had its manifestation in the polish cycle, in particular it is about the polish constitution and the significant

limitations of the polish government, in quotes, of course , oligarchy, aristocratic, yes, and also the russian empire entered. troops and bucha was also in warsaw, that is, under the leadership of her russian field marshal, a criminal, in fact, a person with frankly... perverse genocidal inclinations, they flooded the polish suburbs, the warsaw suburbs of prague with blood. this is also a historical moment, and when we talk about bucha, i also understand that this is not a new story, and in this way, perhaps, they really tried to intimidate, psychologically break the people. well, we understand that it doesn't work that way, but that doesn't make it any easier, katrina. kaletko: good afternoon, too, thank you for the opportunity

of this conversation, for me, in fact, when i saw the topic of the discussion, it was a shock that 10 years have already passed since the actual 13-14 years of this milestone, when it all began, for me all this very detailed, like yesterday, and actually one of the defining moments for my identity, it was my third revolution. the first was ukraine without kuchma, the second was orange, and of course the revolution of dignity, i did not find these first significant efforts to build restored ukrainian independence due to age the beginning of the 90s, and in the 13th year i came with such a rather ironic skepticism, when the student protests began, when uh... yanukovych tried to turn the other way from european integration, because - well, at one time i saw

what ukraine turned into without kuchma, it still hurts to be broken by a golden eagle when the weather changes, then a rib, during the orange revolution, i also remember very well when i returned from kyiv for the weekend to my parents' house in vinnytsia with orange paraphernalia, with a scarf and something. with bows on their sleeves, then people were aggressive in the streets, and with my neighbors laughed at me, that is, here i pick up vitaly's opinion that for the society itself, ukrainian independence, democracy, statehood, horizontal self-organization, the right to direct democracy and manifestations of popular discontent, let's say, let's call it that. pathetically, they were something ridiculous and inappropriate and seemed like something that would not lead to

any significant consequences, and also in the fall of the 13th year, when the student maidan first began, i looked at it already with the experience of the orange revolution and all our mistakes and rollbacks after it, as if on another attempt of a handful. to change the world, to stitch the ukrainian world with russian agents, the levers of russian influence, the indoctrinated consciousness of the broadest masses of the people, and i thought that, well, it would end again, to be honest, nothing, and on november 31 i was still in kyiv, then i came to vinnytsia and in the morning i read the news about the night of the beating, i was very sorry and conscientious that

i was not on the maidan that night, and what started to happen on december 1 really shocked me, because i saw that we were no longer we allow ourselves to be manipulated, we do not allow, we do not want to allow, destroy ourselves, force ourselves, we do not allow ourselves to be humiliated and beaten, and this is not even because , as we said, there was a generation of parents at that time, because they beat their children, simply in the end, we came out to defend our right to vote in the most massive way, probably in recent ukrainian history, and from december 1, 2013 onwards... there was actually a fundamental violation of some established rules of coexistence, well, in

the urban space, in the democratic community, yes, when in a city that is a security area, they are trying to physically destroy the townspeople, the citizens of ukraine, and in the end they physically destroy them, and they do not stop and they are ready to follow their idea until... until the end, whatever this end may be, it all sounds a bit tight-lipped , but nevertheless, it was a very, very important experience for me, very formative. when i saw that this loneliness, a great loneliness, is emerging, that we cease to be a bunch of possessors who move something somewhere, and usually crash against the wall of national misunderstanding, that is, we we are really becoming a community, we are growing up as a community, we are very different people, but

we have the same basic great values, and this is what... it seems to me that allowed us to resist various forms of russian invasion and aggression for 10 years, and finally brought the situation to that they are trying to finally destroy us, physically, finally solve the ukrainian issue, as it was formulated in the russian imperial narrative, voiced publicly, and it is also very strange that in the 21st century... absolutely this aryan nazi rhetoric sounds, and not less, in spacious ukrainian ideas, we still manage to stay together and we continue to grow, we overcome a lot of growing pains, we have a lot to work on, but for me

, the fact that we have a community, us, is the backbone of our self-knowledge. finally there is something to talk about with each other, and we can trust each other, these are very, very important words, and there was one very subtle, very delicate point that i would like to emphasize now, kateryna pointed out that really no one was not ready for this in the world. no one in the world was ready for not just rhetoric, but genocidal actions. we found ourselves in a good world, in which, well, at least the european continent lived nurturing certain illusions, completely abstracting from what war is. in a few weeks, or

in a few days, i don't remember, i spoke verbatim with andrii piontkovsky, so he was one of the few who... said that yes, there will be a war, a war is being prepared, it was perceived before to some extent as a conspiracy theory, someone quipped, and for him the main question was not whether there would be a war, whether there would be able the civilized world with the united states will influence whether there will be a war with concentration camps or without, and so we found ourselves in a world where they can return, or rather the constabularies have returned, so where... to implement katyn, that is, to take and kill prisoners of war, the defenders of mariupol , in the constabor , to kill the defenders of mariupol, that is, the military in the constabor, this is the reality that no one was ready for, because everyone nurtured illusions based on the works of francis

fukuyama and so on, that is, a world in which history ends and everything gradually . turns to soft power, it turned out that no, wars have one animal face, and what happened in buch or in irpin, it is fundamentally no different from what happened during the 30-year war, which ended with the westval peace , yes, when it was recognized that nations have the right to exist and that it is not necessary to apply what is called genocide, but everyone forgot about it again, turn on well - it's when everything is as you want, click and you are in the world of cartoons, click and around the universe of cinema, and then, oh, what you need, megogo, turn on hundreds of channels, thousands movies and sports, there are 20% discounts on bolteren porte in pharmacies plantain, you and save.

the traveler knows what helps. it is a good tradition during the christmas holidays to carol together with the picardy terc. tickets on the concert ua website, media parrtnder spreso tv. the spirit of christmas will definitely come to your city. picardy tertia. good health to good people. live sound. problems with the joints limit movement, it is unpleasant and painful. strengthen them with dolgit joints. these are bags with collagen and vitamin c to restore articular cartilage. long joints contributes to the normal functioning of joints and has a positive effect on bone health. dolgit joints - facilitates motor functions. stretch your joints, move freely. christ was born.

dear brothers and sisters, this year the orthodox church of ukraine together with the majority of local churches is meeting for the first time. celebrates the holidays according to the new julian calendar, but the meeting of christ and epiphany is unchanged. the son of god becomes a man for our sake and our salvation. christmas calls for a rethinking of life views and reminds us of eternal christian values. faith, love, truth, is the cornerstone of stability and the foundation of our struggle. i wish that the spiritual content of the holidays will continue to inspire everyone. reluctant to work for the sake of approaching victory, and the driving force in this was love for neighbors and trust in our defenders. let the christmas carol sound for everyone, and especially for

our soldiers, enveloping christmas with warmth, warming the soul and body. i wish you, your family and friends a merry christmas and a blessed and victorious new year. christ was born, let's praise him. mr. vitaly said that, i think, the majority we will agree with this that the absolute majority of ukrainians did not believe that a full-scale war was possible, especially... in 2013, well, i think that ukraine would easily repeat the results of the kazakhstan poll then, but i think that

it is important to understand that the majority of ukrainians did not believe in the possibility of war for various reasons, and perhaps the beginning of the formation of a political nation became possible because people who did not believe in... the attack of russia for various reasons suddenly united. what i mean, one group i belong to is me was born shortly before the declaration of independence, and for me, ukrainian political independence, and in general, an independent ukrainian state, is a given, i do not know anything else, it was obvious to me, this is an independent country , of course, in the civilized world to which i belong used to to which i, well, i grew up in this, it is impossible, but the second group did not believe in the attack, because we are brothers,

how come, we all lived together all our lives, we lived together with russia, and they had an illusion peaceful divorce, that we practically remained a family, we just went our separate ways, i even heard such a phrase from people that i am for an independent ukraine as part of the cis, that is... what kind of independence is there, and here in 2013 what is happening is that both groups, which in fact should have , they have a conflict between them, and they were caught off guard by what happened immediately after the maidan, the annexation, the war, and these two groups together begin to form a political nation, i think it's important to remember that it was the moment of unification. let's say homo sovieticus, who were supposed to get out of this state, and it was a very unpleasant rebirth for them and a very unpleasant realization, and for people

for whom ukrainian independence was a long time ago, and the question i wanted to ask all of us was whether this process of forming the ukrainian political nation would have started if we had in november 2000... in the 13th year, did you know what would happen next? very good question, this is a rhetorical question, as far as i understand, this is a question that requires deeper reflection, and of course, we have to worry about mr. vitaliy now, everyone guessed who i wanted to ask this in the first place question, i said in 2014, i already answered this question. said that the ukrainian political nation was formed in several steps. the first step took place during the maidan of 2013-2014, and this geographical political nation

united the residents of the west and center of ukraine. because this was, i would say, the main driving force of the maidan, of course, when we stood on the stage and saw the flags of the people who came to the maidan, it was, it was a different geography from uzhhorod to yalta, but the vast majority people who shared the idea here is this independent ukraine and european ukraine, these were the western and central regions. the annexation of crimea, that is what you are talking about, it by and large started the process of nation-building in the dnieper region of eastern ukraine, because the people who lived in the dnieper region really always believed that they had more than just good neighborly relations with russia, it is not enough that they have equal relations with russia, because dnipro was, was the city where leonid brezhnev and half of the members of the politburo of the central committee of the cpsu of his time were born, and these people believed that russians

treat them with respect. and it turned out that it was not, well, that is, it never happened to them , but they just saw it with their own eyes finally, although they never believed in it, and the process of diffusion began in these regions of ukraine, and with the beginning of the war in donbas, the process of diffusion in the south, simply because people who lived in odesa and also believed that russia has a great civilization, culture and so on, they realized that russian actions can simply transform odesa into donetsk, and so on. .. this diffusion happened, but for me too was a good question that i asked everyone in 2014, how effective a political nation can be out of fear, and here we got the answer to this question in 2019, yes a political nation, what i the results of voting for volodymyr zelenskyi in all regions of the country demonstrated, that there is a political nation and that it is integral, again from uzhhorod to senelnikov. but they

showed us the quality of this political nation, that such an ordinary political nation of central europe is ready to believe in any pro-polish promise, in its own myths, that in these political nations, everyone invests in the person at the head of the state their visions, which may not coincide with the visions of their neighbor, but they are all united in their choice, this is a very interesting, very interesting moment, and also a very important moment, a moment of lack of self-awareness, if you will, i can also bring it. this is a great example, i would say not the ability to look at yourself through someone else's eyes. now, many people in ukraine, and i can see it from comments on social networks and so on, like what happened in karabakh. ot azerbaijan restored its territorial integrity with one blow. the population, the separatists left here, and we don't even understand why this european parliament reacts in a completely different way than we do, they are our allies, and they almost unanimously propose

to introduce sanctions against. azerbaijan, what is it? are we also going to de-occupy the territories? so, the idea of ​​a civilized world is that the world generally believes in peaceful solutions to issues, not in war, and not at the expense of the interests of the civilian population, and from this point of view, the consequences of the azerbaijani operations, they look the way they look to the civilized world, but the important thing is not even that, but the fact that russia looks at us exactly like azerbaijan at karabakh, we ourselves are such separatists, from the point of view of russia, and if azerbaijan decides its own. .. another question by saying goodbye to the entire population that lives in the restored territories and is not really needed, perhaps for the future construction of the azerbaijani state, and this is accepted, so why does russia not expel the separatists from those lands that it considers part of historical russia? of course we can to say that, unlike karabakh , we are protected by international law, well, we can enjoy this opinion, because russia

does not care about this from... ivan the great's bell tower, about this international law and about whom it protects, russia believes that everything is decided by force , only later, after force decides, it is possible to agree on a new border, so to speak, and it is important that people cannot, cannot extrapolate what is happening around them in a real situation, another excellent example, which already concerns, i think, the reaction of the world to those events that took place, what, what i will see... now that i woke up and looked why the israeli security forces were not prepared for such a massive attack by hamas, because the special services kept explaining that hamas terrorists have no economic interest in attacking israel, and that's why nothing like that will happen, it's about the same as what the west always explained to us and we explained to ourselves, well, russia can't start a war, it's not economically interested, and when i told my...