dissidents, nationalists and so on, all of them are already turning the house upside down, as my mother tells me, he is standing in my room, where i am, my bed, he has already looked where the bed is, he is still leaning on the railing of that bed and looks oh, baby, i’m patient , i’m thinking, what should i do, i’m thinking, let me say it, oleksandr oleksandrovich, well, what are you waiting for, wake up the child, maybe she ’s written some self-published book and has it somewhere in her rompers, has she hidden it? something like that, i say, what's wrong with you, wake up the child, turn him over on this bed and so on , that is, i say with such indignation, he began to lose his temper, well, no, why are we completely inhuman or something, he left the bed, that’s all, he sleeps, i after

that, even until today day, i remember , when i see solmia, i say, my savior, you saved me from at least 10 years, mordovian camps, and so on, there were many such cases that were etched in my memory, there was one more very interesting case, but it was in 1965, a few months later, i must say this, because nowhere. when told me, on the eve of the arrests in 1965 , mykhailo goren gave me a book, somewhere he, i don't know, someone handed it to him, in memory of the figures of ukrainian culture tortured by bolshevik moscow, and he gave this book to me, and i was still a student at the university, faculty of journalism, says slavka, if you can rephotograph this book, if necessary, and i... such a friend of mine is the only one in

the group of 25 students from the smallest faculty, vasyl gushta, unfortunately he is not there, and we are with him in the photo laboratory, next to the dean's office sat all day, taking pictures of this book, and i when already, that means, for the second time, for the second time, when i already printed from this film, well, there is a technique from. accordingly and so on, and i leave, i leave the lviv university, and my boss, shumeiko oleksandr oleksandrovich, is waiting for me at the main entrance , when you say boss, what do you mean, that is, the person who supervises you, who constantly had these conversations with us, preventive, interrogations and so on and so forth, suddenly he is waiting for you, he is waiting for me everything, and i... i go out, but those photos

are still wet, the developed photos, you understand, i i stuffed and stuffed a cellophane bag, well , i'm a weightlifter, i have a high rib cage, i'm hungry, so i could fit a few kilograms in here, so to speak, on my stomach, he belted this one, and i sat with him for three hours in his office in the lviv office of the kgb. with that load, with that bomb that i had, so to speak , hiding on it, that's what vyacheslav chornovol's words mean: walking on the edge of a knife. i'm sorry, before we continue, i will quote to you, this is when a criminal case was actually opened against ukrainian herald, then according to kgb employees, the magazine posed a threat to the friendship of the soviet peoples in the national politics of the ussr. the state social order

, because it could raise doubts about the possibility of building communism, weaken the authority of the soviet country on the international arena, and now we have come to a very interesting moment, how these films, which you so, so hard to print, took pictures of, how they ended up on event, where they were printed directly in the magazine, but it was difficult. but it was well established to lviv and to kyiv often, sometimes several times a month , the editor-in-chief of duklja magazine , which was published in slovakia in bratislava, came, uh, and pavlo was in contact with the union of writers, as the last name is pavlo pavlo murashko, that is, with the lviv, lviv union, a branch of the union.

writers of ukraine and to kyiv, so we met with pavel, he took this microfilm in the car, he drove to ukraine by car through... through the chop, and hiding this miniature film in the car, then there was no problem, already a report from bratislava it was easier because of foreign journalists first to paris, to be transferred to the shevchenko society, and from there to baltimore to osyp zinkevich, and there osyp had already decoded the tape. and it came out, the herald came out already as a book, and then it went on radio svoboda, then i already spoke, it was translated into several languages, and already the world has an audience of a million, and it

was for the union, it was scarier than the atomic bomb, there was a meeting, this is yevhen to me kyrylovych marchuk, when he was with me on the fifth channel in the program, told me when i asked him for... about the criminal case under with the code name blok and how does he know about the ukrainian herald, he says, let me explain that yevgeny kyrylovych marchuk is also a ukrainian politician who was, who was also the minister of defense, headed the national security and defense council, but he also worked, also headed the kgb general in the soviet time, the first head of the security service of ukraine, the first head of the security service, it is very important, and the same. it is important to say that this kgb operation bloc, this actually, this was the result of this operation , were the arrests of 1972, actually this arrested carol with which we started the conversation, and part

the ukrainian herald was also involved in the development of the kgb's major operation. i want now that we listen to osip, zinkevich, since we started talking about the publisher and the leader later. osip zinkevich, this is what he says about chornovol and the ukrainian herald. if it weren't for chornovil, if it weren't for the disaster, later heralds, i very much doubt who would have proclaimed the independence of ukraine. so already information about events, about arrests, about repressions, about russification, was spread by dozens of copies of gazetteers, but this is already spread to millions of listeners... the voice of america was broadcast by radio liberty, other stations also broadcast something, and chornovol had a vision of the future, how to achieve independence, no one in those days, it was the 70s, believed that it would disintegrate the most powerful country in the world is the soviet union, but i doubt whether

at that time, and today, that small group of people who spread, there were more and more supporters in lviv and in kyiv, and this is already after... this whole process struggle with completely different means for ukrainian independence of the state, is it true that the diaspora did not believe at first, people in the west did not believe at first that such a thing could come from ukraine, so what, that they thought that it could be a development of the kgb, some kind of provocation, absolutely, if only there had been more time , this is precisely what osyp zinkevich tells about, he says that it is strange. was the reaction of the ukrainian diaspora, but powerful soviet propaganda worked, this is precisely its illustration , how it worked so effectively that even ukrainians believed that ukraine as such no longer existed, it dissolved into the soviet union, and

and everything, about which there was little to talk about, they sent, well, people, there is such a girl, i remember, he said the same about her for... who had to meet, she came from the west to you, so you can check yes, yes, in what year was this, it was, it was somewhere, somewhere, somewhere, somewhere after the appearance of a crazy disaster, somewhere in the 69th and 70th years, that is , a person came from the diaspora who found out here, handed over photos, evidence, but the most interesting. in this story with the ukrainian herald, that even before the arrests, vyacheslav somehow felt, understood that it would not work out that way, meekly and lightly, he predicted that he would be tied up, whether there was evidence or not, they

organized the evidence, and they really organized the evidence. vyacheslav, because it was published in newspapers, everything and the texts that were included in... the gazette, and so they drew a conclusion that the texts were placed in an anti-soviet magazine, to which everyone gives all the epithets, in that enemy magazine, they may belong, they may belong peru vyacheslav chornovola, and he then mocked and wrote such a review of this publication, already in prison, well, he bombed that one. professors, he left no trace of them , he said, yes, yes, as chornovil knows how, and said

that the main evidence, so to speak, that these are my texts in the ukrainian gazette, the main evidence was that there was a full stop after the end of each sentence , but here is another interesting story, that you agreed with chornovol, that... and about the sixth and last for that period, yes at that time, the license plate of the ukrainian coachman already after his arrest, let's start with the direct speech of vyacheslav chornovol, where he talks about it and then we will continue, please, it was agreed that if i am imprisoned, then i must continue publishing the magazine, the magazine was hidden in various good people, maybe one of them there are some in this hall as well, it was agreed that it would be necessary for someone to continue, that is exactly the person with whom i agreed that he would continue this work, and now he is a well-known figure and so on, when i

was arrested and, but all these things remained somewhere, something unfinished, he said, i'm sorry, there's a family, children, i can't, and that 's when atena rushed to mykhailo kosiv, and mykhailo kosiv, who also had a family and children, together with athena pashko, made the sixth issue of the ukrainian herald, which was published already two or three months after my arrest, got abroad and... completely messed up our dear kgb, who will finally release him? mykhailo, show yourself again, that is, mykhailo kosiv already after the arrest of chornovila together, they did together with how chornovila found out about it, who told him, well, first of all, this is really the uniqueness of chornovov, which he predicted exactly. such an option is possible, and what did the kgb have to do when he was reprimanded, well

, proved, and questioned, and witnesses, all this, when you take the fifth volume of vyacheslav chornovol, there the entire valya wrote out the criminal case against chornovol, and each, each the interrogation began, what do you know about the ukrainian herald, it was the main topic at all those interrogations that... were conducted with us, but vyacheslav had one more such idea that came true, he says, i will according to the tone of the interrogations with to my investigator, i i will feel, because they are such that i see them through and through and everything, if there is a need, a necessity, so to speak, to stop, i will pass her note through athena. after all, athena , as the wife communicated with the investigator, handed over some products, some notes of

a domestic nature, they censored these notes there and everything, and if i feel that somewhere there they have already found some, some, some connections, so will you it means from some sign that somewhere there they know about ukraine. herald, then i will write through athena, i will pass on the same note: she has no warm socks m, me, warm socks, uh, don't send them, uh, those i have are enough, period, so if such a note will be warm socks, it means that you have to destroy all, uh... some things , who would say that the evidence could be, could become evidence

, and so on and so forth, and so it happened as agreed, in one of the meetings, the investigator brings, informs aten what he handed over, and vyacheslav handed over the note, it means that she still needs to go there, but, but don’t hand over warm socks, mykhailo, and mykhailo kossiv drowned then, so you have to thank mykhailo, in front of all of ukraine, that he did a unique thing, and vyacheslav and i always joked, when he returned, that slavko... "when are you going to exhibit, we shortened your age by five years, yes, that's why that in fact the kgb did not have direct evidence, and so did mykhailo, mykhailo was typing, on his own, he had some kind of smaller typewriter, but he, he only needed this introduction about these arrests, and that vyacheslav chornovil was also arrested, and they really

were at a loss, but this car was material evidence, that's why." desperately wanted typewriters, so vyacheslav mykhailo kosiv was typing at the house of stanislav lyutkevich, a well-known composer, and as mykhailo himself recounts, well, there was no time to show mykhailo's memory, mykhailo says that stas called him old lyutkevich, so he says: mr. mykhailo. and whatever it is that will give this piece of paper, that muscovite needs a gun, a gun, a gun, a gun, and it was the same with sofia fedortseva, and of course mykhailo did this work, i finished it, reprinted it, and then it went the same way, and somewhere, as

mykhailo says, and i, we listened. that wheezing radio freedom, because they were jamming, but i want us to finish this story, that mykhailo kotsiv drowned this car in the lake, it is the fault of navaria, when we received a note that i no longer need warm jackets, he will display the ones he has, that's it he drowned according to all laws, and his test, he went, as if he went to a dacha, to a garden, and there was a lake near that garden. look, we only have four minutes left, but i want to, i have two or two more questions, first of all , we're talking about this now like it's some big adventure, actually, it was a terribly dangerous thing, and these are huge risks, and it did not come easily, and it did not

go unpunished, i know that in czechoslovakia pavel was convicted... shame on hann kotsurov and grodsky, right? hanna kotserova studied together with valentina at the university , she studied philology, and one copy, one tape, was transferred through hana kotsarova, and somewhere there the chekists arrested valentina, and me, and everyone who we have a relationship with this slovak student, i hate kotserov, that's all, unfortunately, unfortunately, they didn't withstand that, so to speak, torture, we already here, valentina was definitely more hardened. and they couldn't stand it, they said, yes, they confessed and were convicted. who in ukraine was punished directly for a ukrainian herald, for a ukrainian herald in

ukraine, directly a herald, so to speak. valentyna chornovil, his sister , his sister, made a huge contribution to the fact that we speak today and that ukraine and the world know about vyacheslav chornovil. for a titanic job, she rewrote the entire criminal case by hand, somewhere i don't remember exactly how many volumes were not given the opportunity to be rephotographed, she copied by hand and she arranged 10 volumes in 11 books and this edition of her works by vyacheslav chornovol came out

and the third volume contains all of them. six issues of the ukrainian herald are published, the fifth volume is devoted to the criminal case of vyacheslav chornovol, all the interrogation protocols are all there in this fifth volume, it is extremely interesting to feel how dangerous vyacheslav's initiative was, which was implemented until the end and shook the soviet union, ukraine. herald, this is a full-fledged, full-fledged magazine. here is one more, in conclusion, and this is what zinkevich says, and vyacheslav, mykhailo kosiv says that when a certain... there was a piece of paper on one sheet, well, someone wrote to himself there and so on, and when a magazine comes out , so the magazine must have some kind

of editor-in-chief, some small team, that is, it is already an organized group of people who are united by some one idea, and implement what the whole world has learned about, and the merit of the ukrainian... snik and his chief, so to speak, the performer editor-in-chief vyacheslav chornovola is simply unique in the collapse of the soviet union and in the breakthrough of this iron curtain that then existed between the union and the democratic world. mr. yaroslav, thank you for helping to publish ukrainian gazettes, for your courage and bravery. for everything you have done, and i thank you separately for your colossal video archive that you have collected, because everything we see now about the first years

of independence, about the student hunger strike of the 90s, even before this national-liberation movement, these are all shots that shot by yaroslav kendzyur, i just constantly remember you with the camera, i recorded everything. now we actually have a unique archive of those times, if it weren’t for these shots, we would actually have a lot of this video of the stage plan, the establishment of the ukrainian state , so how many hours do you have, how many hours, well , it’s hard to count, because there are 700 vhs format cassettes, and there are 54 , they are three hours, two, two hours, 120 minutes, well, in one word, these are colossal, colossal things, video chronicles, video chronicles. extremely important and not only for us, but also for our children and grandchildren, those who will come, i thank you very much for this conversation, thank you for inviting and taking up this topic, because

for me it is very important and i realized that it is a part of my life, thank you for this conversation, thank you that in these holidays, you devoted time to this topic, please remember the price of free speech. it was given to many generations of people before us, and we remember what we are fighting for and what we are fighting against today, be with espresso tv channel, stay with us, these were our own names, yaroslav kendzer, public figure, politician, was our guest today , thank you and i thank you. see this week in the collaborators program. how the rashists turn the children of donbas into merciless killers. but who

prays for the russian soldiers in the city of happiness? on tuesday, december 26, watch the collaborators program with olena kononenko on the espresso tv channel.

the war created many challenges for us ukrainians and even more so for ukrainians with disabilities. but we know that only together, united, we can be stronger. friends, welcome. friendly online community enable me ukraine. this is the first platform in ukraine for communication of persons with disabilities. here you get all the information about disability, medical services and relocation. free consultations of a lawyer, psychologist, doctor, employment specialist, volunteers from all over europe, here you get support, advice and real friends. together we support each other, share useful

information and... we learn new things, together we grow, join us, become part of our enable me ukraine family, with the support of the national assembly of persons with disabilities of ukraine enable me ukraine. i think we can start our panel, so 10 years ago, the decade of the maidan, the second maidan, maybe the third maidan for some, marked the beginning of a new, fundamentally new cycle that we are all experiencing now.

and this cycle, i have such a fear, will not end so easily and will not end without major changes, and here changes are not ukrainian, but also changes at the level of the entire european continent, and possibly the whole world, so, well, but our place, at least in that process, is not only to act correctly, but also to reflect correctly, and accordingly today ours. guests will do this great act. today, kateryna kalytko, vitaly portnikov, yevgenia kuznitsova work on the panel. i think that the key story, well, the key thesis, is when what we call the maidan began, that is, a shift, a change in ukrainian society, which meant a big break with the russian empire, with the russian narrative, with inclusion in the russian

space, culture civilization, and in general, can the events of the maidan be considered as the formation of a fundamentally new ukraine, that a process that, as it were, formally began in 1991, and perhaps it just materialized, or was expressed, or manifested itself precisely in 2014, yes, and now we are also experiencing parts of this great and difficult cycle. i think that each of the participants has his own vision and his own answers , and perhaps additional questions of a rhetorical plan, well, we will start, of course, with vitaly portnikov, what about me, well, that’s how things are going, because yes, thank you for all of you came to listen to us at this important event.

important, because i believe that now every the event that is happening in ukraine, which shows that we are living, not surviving, under missile attacks and drone strikes, this is evidence that russia's plans to destroy ukrainian statehood and the ukrainian people cannot be realized, i i would still like to start this conversation about maidan 2000. 13-2014 with some statements of what happened in the 90s, which antin said in his preface. i am sincerely convinced, although it is not customary to say so, that we, the supporters of ukrainian independence in 1991, were in absolute minority in their own country. of course, you can say that... there were

the results of the referendum on december 1, 1991, which we completely coped with, because there was an overwhelming majority of people in favor of the independence of ukraine, but you have to remember that a few months before that, another referendum was held for the preservation of the soviet union, where also the overwhelming majority of people, not in this region of ukraine, but in all other regions, except for the western lands, were for the preservation of the soviet union. i remember my emotions. at the first founding congress of the movement, on the one hand i was happy to see people who came to fight for the future of the country, for independence, on the other hand it hurt me, because before that i went to the congresses of the popular fronts of the baltic countries and saw the public support for what is happening in and.