when it all started, for me it is all very detailed, everything is like yesterday, and actually one of the significant moments for my identity, it was my third revolution, the first was ukraine without kuchma, the second was the orange revolution, of course, and the revolution of dignity, i did not find due to the age of these first significant efforts to build restored ukrainian independence in the early 90s, and in... the 13th year, i came with such rather ironic skepticism, when student protests began, when yanukovych tried to turn the other way from european integration, because at one time i saw, on what ukraine has become without kuchma, i still feel the pain of having a rib broken by a golden eagle during the orange revolution. and

in the same way, i remember very well when i returned home from kyiv for the weekend to my parents in vinnytsia wearing orange paraphernalia with a scarf or something with some bows on my sleeve, then people were aggressive on the streets, and the neighbors laughed at me, that is, i pick up thus vitaliy's opinion that for the society itself ukrainian independence, democracy, statehood, this and that. talna self-organization revealed the right to direct democracy popular discontent, let's say, let's call it so pathetic, were something ridiculous and inappropriate and seemed like something that would not lead to any significant consequences, and likewise in the fall of the 13th year, when the student maidan first began. i looked at it already with

the experience of the orange revolution and all our mistakes and setbacks after it, as another attempt by a handful of passionate people to change the world, to stitch the ukrainian world with russian agents, the levers of russian influence , the indoctrinated consciousness of the broadest masses of the people, and i thought that here we go again this again will end saying, nothing, and on november 31 i was still in kyiv, then i came to vinnytsia and in the morning i read the news about the night of the beating, i was very sorry and conscientious that i was not on the maidan that night, and what started to happen from 1 december really shocked me because i saw that we

no longer allow ourselves to be manipulated, we do not allow, we do not want to allow ourselves to be destroyed, coerced, we do not allow ourselves to be humiliated and beaten, and this is not even because, as we said, there was a generation of parents at that time, because they were beaten their children, just in the end, we came out to protect the masses. one's right to vote is still certain in the new ukrainian history, and from december 1, 2013 onwards , a fundamental violation of some established rules of coexistence took place, well, in the urban space, in the democratic community, so when in the city, which is a security territory, the townspeople, the citizens of ukraine are trying to...

physically destroy and in the end they physically destroy and they do not stop and they are ready to follow their idea to the end, no matter what the end may be, it all sounds something like this with a tight throat, but nevertheless it was a very, very important experience for me, a very formative one, when i saw that, well , this loneliness is emerging, a great loneliness, that we cease to be... a bunch of passionate people who move something somewhere, and usually breaks against the wall of national misunderstanding, that is, we really become a community, we grow up as a community, we are very different people, but we have the same basic great values, and this, it seems to me, is what allowed us to resist various forms of russian invasion for 10 years and aggression, and

in the end, it brought the situation to the point that they are trying to finally destroy us physically, to solve the ukrainian question exactly, as it was formulated in the russian, imperial narrative, voiced publicly, and it is also very strange that in the 21st century, absolutely this aryan nazi rhetoric is heard, and nevertheless, in the space of the ukrainian idea, we still manage to stay together, and we continue to grow, we overcome a lot of growth diseases, we have a lot to work on. but for me is actually the backbone of self-knowledge the fact that we have a community, we finally have something to talk about with each other and we can trust each other, these are very, very

important words, and there was a very subtle, very delicate moment and... that i wanted to emphasize now, kateryna drew attention to the fact that really no one in the world was ready for such rhetoric, no one in the world was ready for not just rhetoric, but genocidal actions. we found ourselves in a good world in which, well, at least the european continent lived nurturing certain illusions, completely abstracting from what it was represents the war in a few weeks, well, or in a few days, i don't remember, verbatim, i spoke with andriy piondkovsky, so he was one of the few who said that yes, there will be a war, a war is being prepared, it was perceived to a certain extent measures like conspiracy, someone

quipped, and for him the main question was not whether there will be a war, whether the civilized world and the united states will be able to influence there, whether there will be a war with or without concentration camps? yes, and here we are in a world where they can return, or rather, constables have returned, yes, where it is possible to implement katynia, that is, to take and kill the prisoners of war defenders of mariupol, in the constabulary, to kill the defenders of mariupol, that is, the military in the constabulary, this is the reality that no one was ready for, because everyone cherished ... illusions that were based on the works of francis fukuyama and so on, that is, the world in which history ends and everything gradually turns to soft power, it turned out that no, wars have one animal face, and

what happened in bucha or in irpin, it was fundamentally nothing differs from what happened during the thirty years' war, which ended with the peace of westphalia, so when... it was recognized that nations have the right to exist and that it is not necessary to apply what is called genocide, but everyone forgot about it again, the usual things become unreal, heavy bags are not for my sick back, for back pain, try dolgit cream. long-acting cream relieves pain, reduces swelling and improves joint mobility. with dolgit cream, whatever you want, i'll pick it up, dolgit - the only yellow cream for pain in the joints and back, there are discounts on parastemat aldarnytsia 10, in pharmacies plantain to you and savings. the traveler knows what helps, the tingling and crawling sensations arise spontaneously and disturb you.

the doolgit antineuralgia complex helps to normalize the functioning of the nervous system. dolgit antineuralgia helps to return to usual activities without tingling and numbness at the end. help your nervous system! vasyl zima's big broadcast, two hours of air time, two hours of your time, two hours to learn about the war and what the world is like, two hours to keep up with economic news and sports news, two hours in the company. beloved presenters, presenters who have become like relatives to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio. events of the day in two hours. vasyl zima's big broadcast. a project for smart and caring people. espresso in the evening. verdict with serhii rudenko. from now on in a new two-hour format. even

more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests: foreign experts, inclusion from abroad. about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and vice versa. connection, you can express your opinion in spite of the day with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and turn on, the verdict with serhiy rudenko, every weekday from 20 to 22. on espresso. mr. vitaly said that, i think that most of us would agree with this, that the absolute majority of ukrainians did not believe that... that a full-scale war was possible, especially in 2013, well, i think that ukraine then

repeated would the results of the kazakhstan survey with ease, but i think it is important to understand that the majority of ukrainians did not believe in the possibility of war for various reasons, and maybe it became possible at all , the beginning of the formation of a political... nation became possible, because people who did not believe in the attack of russia for various reasons suddenly united, what i mean, one group to which i belong, i was born not long ago before the declaration of independence, and for me ukrainian political independence and an independent ukrainian state in general is a given, i don't know anything else, it was obvious to me, this is an independent country, on it, of course... the civilized world to which i am accustomed, to which i, well, i grew up in this, it is impossible, but the second group

did not believe in the attack, because we are brothers, how come, we lived together all our lives, we lived together with russia, and they had the illusion of a peaceful divorce, that we practically remained with the family, we simply went our separate ways , i even heard such a phrase from people that i am for an independent... ukraine as part of the cis. that is, what is independence here? and here in 2013, what happens is that both groups, which in fact should have, are surprised, they have a conflict between them, and they were surprised by what was happening, which happened immediately after the maidan, the annexation, war, and these two groups together begin to form a political nation. i think this is important. remember that it was a moment of unification, let's say, homo sovietikus, who

had to get out of this state, and it was a very unpleasant rebirth for them and a very unpleasant realization, and people for whom ukrainian independence was a long time ago, and the question i wanted to ask all of us, would this process of formation of the ukrainian political nation begin? if we knew in november 2013 what would happen next? very good question, it's a rhetorical question as far as i'm concerned i understand, this is a question that requires deeper reflection, and of course, now we have to worry about mr. vitaly, everyone guessed who i wanted to ask this question to in the first place, i said in 2014, i already answered this question, i said that the ukrainian political nation was formed in several steps, the first

step took place during the maidan of 2013-2014, and geographically this political nation united the residents of the west and center of ukraine, because this was, i would say, the main driving force of the maidan, of course, when we stood on the stage and saw the flags of people who came to the maidan, it was a different geography, from uzhgorod to yalta, but... the vast majority of people who shared the idea of ​​this independent ukraine and european ukraine, these were the western and central regions. the annexation of crimea, that is what you are talking about, it largely started the process of nation-building in the dnieper region, in the east of ukraine, because the people who lived in the dnieper region really always believed that they had more than just good neighborly relations with russia, that's it. that they have equal relations with russia, because the dnipro was, was

the city where leonid brezhnev and half of the members of the politburo of the central committee of the cpsu of his time were born , and these people believed that the russians treated them with respect, but it turned out that they did not, well, that is , it never happened, but they simply saw it on their own eyes finally, although they never believed in it, and the process of diffusion began in these regions of ukraine, and with the beginning of the war in... the process of diffusion began in the south, simply because people who lived in odessa also believed that well, russia, well, there is a great civilization, culture and so on, they understood that russian actions can simply transform. odessa to donetsk. and that's how this diffusion happened, but it was also a good question for me, which i asked everyone in 2014. and how effective can a political nation be out of fear. and here we got the answer to this question of 2019. yes, a political nation, the fact that i the results of voting for volodymyr zelenskyi in all regions

of the country demonstrated that there is a political nation, and that it is integral, again from uzhhorod. to senelnikov, but they showed us the quality of this political nation, that such an ordinary political nation of central europe is ready to believe in any political promise, in its own myths, that in these political nations everyone invests in the person at the head of the state their own visions, which may not coincide with the visions of the neighbor, but they are all united in to your choice, this is a very interesting, very interesting moment, and also a very important moment, a very important moment. self-awareness, if you want, but i can also give this beautiful example, i would say not the ability to look at yourself through someone else's eyes. there are many people in ukraine now, and i can see it comments on social networks and so on, i like what happened in karabakh, azerbaijan restored its territorial integrity in one fell swoop, the population, the separatists left here, and we do not even

understand why this european parliament reacts in a completely different way than we do, they well, our allies, and they... almost unanimously propose to introduce sanctions against azerbaijan, what is this, we will also de-occupy the territories? so the idea of ​​a civilized world is that the world generally believes in peaceful solutions to issues, and not in military and not at the expense of the interests of the civilian population, and from this point of view the consequences of the azerbaijani operation, they look as they look to the civilized world, but it is not even that that is important, but the fact that russia looks at us just like azerbaijan at karabakh, we such separatists themselves , from russia's point of view, if azerbaijan solves its territorial issue by saying goodbye to the entire population that lives in the restored territories and is not really needed, perhaps for the future construction of the azerbaijani state, and this is accepted, then why not russia expel the separatists from those lands, which it considers part of historical russia, we can

of course say that, unlike karabakh, we are protected by international law, well, we can... with this opinion, because russia does not give a damn about it from the bell tower of ivan the great, about it international law and who it protects, russia believes that everything is decided by force, only after force decides, it is possible to agree on a new border, so to speak, and it is important that people cannot, cannot extrapolate what happens around them in a real situation is even more beautiful an example that already applies, i think , to the events that took place, which i saw now, when i woke up and looked, why the israeli security forces were not prepared for such a massive attack by hamas, because the special services all the time explained that terrorists from hamas are not economically interested in attacking israel, so nothing like that will happen, this is roughly the same as what the west has been explaining to us all the time and we

were explaining to ourselves, well, you can't start a war with russia, it is not economically interested , and when... i was telling my german friends that the war will start a week after nord stream 2 is completed, they looked at me like a city madman, people still can't understand, this is also a sign of this political nation we got and the world we live in, what for the economic interests of many mean little when it comes to fulfilling their schizophrenic fantasies, and we too need to learn to live in a world of such realities, and to conclude this thought, a political nation is a very good thing, in some... world this political nation lives internally in the world own ideas about life and outside the world ideas about what can expect from this political nation, these are the next, rhetorical questions. yes, i would like to ask you to ask another possible rhetorical question, i really like the way you formulate them, and maybe i will just briefly add, i will literally

just continue what vitaly was talking about, he absolutely gave a brilliant formulation about... the nation out of fear, and this is exactly what happened to us in reality, and this is happiness in misfortune, let's call it that. actually, i am too well, yes, emotionally, energetically, i remember the time of the late yanukovych in front of the maidan, it was such a thick, unelectrified air that does not move, in which it is impossible to breathe and it is not clear whether, in principle, there is any future and how to formulate it. and i remember very well the publications there, the public statements of some of our intellectuals, who talked about the fact that it might be easier for us to give back. there is donbas, for example, from russia and to build some kind of normal ukraine without it, i.e. these are all the moments when it was easier to leave through non-resistance, without making any effort

to get to know each other and understand how to work with internal problems, and in fact, when the war started, first in its crimean-donbass phase, and now already... we were definitely confused, and we finally got to know each other , and understood that the most important value is actually being ukrainian, all other differences are something that should theoretically be smoothed out by a good education and political culture, with which a political nation should live, and we have a little of that it was always lacking, well, because it wasn't opportunities, again we talked... about all these russian influences and erosion, which were brought here from the inside for a very long time, very systematically, so actually, well, the 2019 vote

is just a manifestation of what a political nation is, of a political culture there is no, and there is no tradition of responsible thinking, and there is no strategizing for the future either , that is, no one thinks about it, we will spend, we will make some such a ridiculous choice, we will try, and if not... we will make another maidan and drop everything let's do it, give all the bullshit , gentlemen, like us, as some activists said, what we have already forgotten a little, and therefore it is now clear that somehow, during a great bloody war, a hot phase, when some new great history opens before us, the cycle of this history, when the world enters another great, bloody phase, to talk about ... the world and the systematic construction of political culture, it seems a little bit strange, but all the same, if we try, in particular within the framework of the forum and in general, to think about

the future, about writing, rewriting this future, because i have already repeated here several times, that the census of the future is in particular, the recipe, that is, the components from which this future should be built, then we must think about the fact that we are catastrophically lacking not only in-depth knowledge about each other, but also in-depth systemic knowledge about the world and us in it. i want to add one thesis that i think that what we have, what we faced, not today and not yesterday, but the day before yesterday, what we have to fight with is, if you like, the reactivity of the ukrainian nation and the reactivity this perception, i always understood it from my own experience, because it was my question even in my childhood to many people who said: oh, if we... or according to the sine wave, that is, we have some fantastic

passionate periods when people build a state and give their lives for it and try to speak themselves to the world, alternates with periods when it all breaks down against one's own people, about infantilism, it is very aptly said, and about... readiness to work further, instead of conforming to some convenient slogans and agreeing with someone situationally in the middle, most often we have to agree with russia, but well, there are others too, we know episodes in history, and that's why i'm actually very afraid of this, that in fact, at the moment of some kind of depletion by war, resourceful, psychological, and the world will force us to act... and we ourselves are tired and partially annihilated, we will somehow drift into this dialogue, and then

the next generation will actually have to go there again, those who are currently 15-16-18 years old there, will have to start all over again. i am not sure that a political nation can be inherited, unless it is a three-year-old lawn that has been watered and trimmed. and he is already ordered to such an extent that it is necessary to make a lot of effort to break it, to destroy it, but all the same, we also know the history of world democracies, parliamentarism, all of this was based on great blood and great struggle, and sooner or later something from this something is breaking through the lawn that shouldn't be there, and actually i always think about the fact that we are talking about victory and defeat. after victory, what is victory, what will we call victory, exit to the borders of the 13th year, recovery. there for

the 91st year, shall we go there from the xiang to the don, what, what do we imagine as victory, or just the day when the war will end, and we, in particular , the international community will impose some kind of truce with russia, which one way or another in 5-10 years will turn into a new war, when they will come to destroy us finally everything that was not finished, taking into account their previous mistakes and building up another wave of mobilization and producing new weapons. so, well, i 'm coming back, i don't really have an answer, but we see how ukrainian history fluctuates and fluctuates, you can analyze, why does this happen, but i actually go back to the question of education, it seems to me that the actual study of history, a public conversation about this history and about historical analogies, which are very shaky ground in fact, but often give a lot of insight, can... well, some kind of buffer

a little to give to the next generation, not to protect it from having to do everything again, but at least to give a little more at the start? i think i interpret it a little differently because when you talk about a political nation, you somehow analyze it in terms of categories of good or bad, and a political nation is just a political nation, there is a hungarian political nation, it is a political nation, and they vote for viktor orbán. and they can vote for someone else, in the pre-war period they generally lived under the rule of the regent admiral hortzi, but they were simply hungarians, well, hungarians, well, they are hungarians, well, but you can be a political nation, sorry to interrupt, effective or not effective , it can be, well, a political nation can be effective, it can be ineffective, this is absolutely normal for any political nation, but the issue of the ukrainian political nation was that the majority of the population here did not belong to this political

nation, did not consider themselves ukrainians, take it upon yourself, so to speak, and do not take offense, i will explain: i once wrote an article, a ukrainian jew, this is how a rare bird, he said what a polish jew is, he is a jew who may or may not go to the synagogue, may or may not know you are going, but he usually knows the polish language, reads polish poets, he can even count the poles around him anti-semites live with him, but he he can definitely talk to them about all polish cultural or everyday problems, he lives

in their world, but what is a jew? country , well, he can also go to the synagogue or not, believe or not, have some interest in jewish culture or not, what begins next, he speaks russian, not ukrainian, as a rule, well, if he is not from galicia, relatively speaking, somewhere from the dnipro or odesa, he is russian-speaking, great russian culture, oh, it is almost ours, well, not ours, well, still ours, and there that's all there is, ukrainian jews, not ukrainian, we saw ukrainian jews only when the ukrainian political nation began to form. i remember very well when i met ivan fedorovich drach in the late 80s, early 90s . people of all nationalities in ukraine, including jews, tatars, and armenians, will speak the ukrainian language, and he looks at me and says: "well, vitaly, well, it is possible to somehow make it so that at least the ukrainians themselves first

i suddenly realized that this is a political nation, you see, a political nation can be ineffective, but it is important that it exists, so that all of us who live here on these ukrainian lands consider ourselves ukrainians, not a bride, and that's question number one , question number two, about liberal russia, your love for the ukrainian people does you credit. but it seems to me that you don't really understand them. liberal russia will never absorb ukraine for the simple reason that liberal russia will never can have great authority of the ukrainian people. the most popular politicians of the ukrainian people until the moment when we were attacked were boris, volodymyr putin and oleksandr lukashenko, russia is not liberal at all, and boris yeltsin or any liberal russian politicians have never enjoyed the great love of the ukrainian people. so it will be and...