to this decision, despite the position of individual european leaders, the already mentioned orban and hungary, but let's not get carried away, the path can actually be extremely long, and on this path of negotiations and not only the implementation of agreements, we will be, perhaps even for decades, historical examples of this there are also moldova, georgia, bosnia and herzegovina, bosnia and herzegovina, together with ukraine, received certain euro integration prospects. can get an opportunity to negotiate if he meets the terms of the negotiations, yes well, that is, it is a step forward in the case of each individual country, of course, its own, but there is a trend and there is a signal, a political signal from the european union that they are ready to accept into their ranks countries that, some of them are very traumatized by the russian federation, well simply for reasons of territorial integrity or non-integrity, and this is an important point, christina, because let's be completely frank. if it were not for russia's attack on ukraine,

the european integration of ukraine, georgia and moldova could only be discussed after how the process of european integration of the western balkan countries ended. by the way, i have always said for years that when we talk about our european integration, the balkans first, then the western balkans integration process, which is not known when it will end, must be completed first. and then it will be possible to talk about the post-soviet space, and that in order for it to be different, something like this needs to happen, which i don't even want to think about now, because there are no objective prospects for it, and here it is, it unfortunately, happened, this is a war, a war that forced the west to look more seriously towards the post-soviet space and the aspirations of those peoples who would like to be part of the european family, and these are primarily ukraine,

georgia and moldova, and i will remind you that when were creating the eastern partnership initiative, and the initiators, by the way, were the then minister of foreign affairs of sweden, karl bilt, and the then minister of foreign affairs of poland , radislaw sikorski, who returned to his post in the new government of donald tusk, the idea it was just that we would not get anywhere, something is being created for us such a club of soviet republics in which we should sit and not run away and... even the association agreement did not change anything significantly from this point of view, and now rodoslav syukorsky, one of the most active supporters of the european integration of ukraine, together with his prime minister and president andrzej duduy. if you ask him why you needed the eastern partnership, he will say to accelerate the process of european integration of ukraine, i predicted everything, because yes politicians always predict everything, only johnson did not predict brexit in this aspect, well, okay, he did not. of great

britain, would you like to become the prime minister of great britain? no, but that's a different story , it's strange, it's the first time i see a woman who doesn't want to be, you don't want to be a member of the verkhovna rada, but i would become the prime minister of great britain, a member of the european parliament, i don't mind either, right? well, but anyway, so in that regard, i have to say that it's, quite like, no, i just thought that after margaret thatcher every opportunity to show femininity and political ability. why not goldameyer? maybe this is my idol after all. margarychyn is more elegant, isn't it? well, this is already a taste, well, this, indeed, is another conversation we have. in any case, just become a goldimer, you have to be, become a grandmother, buy yourself an avoska, i just don't see you like that. well, let me get to that point. my goal is to live to this moment. in any case. to be serious. well, that was also led. an honorable step forward, the very fact

that we are candidates for membership of the european union union, so many countries have been candidates for many years, but they are still part of this space, these are joint meetings, these are summits, are they not in some countries outside, countries that will be in, this is money for candidate countries, this is a change in legislation, it's a process, uh, it 's completely different possibilities from the point of view of there... er, economic and political cooperation, and everyone just understands where the ending, by the way, this ending will depend largely on us, because turkey basically stopped changing its legislation at some point, it stopped not negotiations, but the process of european integration, because its new leadership, when recep tayyip erdogan came to power, made a different, if you will, geopolitical choice, not even in favor of anyone else, in favor of turkey. that is, for turkey

to be an alternative power by itself, there is the west, there is the east and there is turkey, well, by the way, as it was during the ottoman empire, that's how it was, yes. and erdoğan sees politics in this way, no one said that one of his heirs will not return to the idea of ​​participation, it is difficult to say, but, you know, an experiment is still needed, the european union still remains, if you will, such a fortress of christian civilizations. when albania and bosnia and herzegovina are eventually accepted into the european union, ugh. let's see what europe will look like, then these will be the first states with a huge muslim population, not migrants, but autochthonous inhabitants of both bosnia and albania, who will be part of the european family, and this may

be to some extent the answer to the question , and what will happen to turkey in the future with its european integration, because we are still we are talking about this only theoretically. also from a civilizational point of view, because it hasn't happened yet, but it just might happen, because of all the countries of the western balkans, it is albania that shows the fastest progress in terms of reforms, i hope that this country, together with north macedonia will quickly be able to overcome this path, but the important thing here is that this war showed that these processes can develop in parallel, who would have thought that the federal chancellor of austria would... set a condition for ukraine and moldova to agree to negotiations , proposals for the start of negotiations for bosnia and herzegovina, in principle there should not have been either , because everyone perfectly understood that before this balkan process is finished, the ukrainian and moldovan ones will not begin, but you

are right that there are quite serious questions on the future, but this is a question for the future, what to do with the territorial integrity of ukraine, moldova and georgia, i also think about it all the time, that it is a very serious problem. let's take a short break and in the second part of this conversation, we'll talk about expectations for 2024 it's a year and in general we will try somehow ungratefully as always to predict what we should do and how we should live . reo: you're ready, dear, ready, took reo. reo - water for special medical purposes. problems with the joints limit movement, it is unpleasant and painful. strengthen them with the help of long joints. these are bags with collagen and

vitamin c to restore articular cartilage. dolgit joints contributes to the normal functioning of the joints and has a positive effect on bone health. i will relieve the joints for a long time motor functions. stretch your joints, move freely. new year's eve with the broadcast of your favorite tv channel. let's sum up the year with top espresso presenters. top journalists will talk to top ukrainians. and top ukrainian performers live, welcome the new year together, happy holiday, victorious new year. the espresso channel and ukrainian pen present the self- titled project with myroslava barchuk. a series of conversations with

ukrainian and western intellectuals who analyze and comment on the most relevant social debates. what news will be analyze this week's project guests and? as a matter of fact, we will find out who will be the guest of the studio already this sunday, clearly, the topics will be relevant, the guests will be special, their own names with myroslava barchuk. sunday, 17:10 at espresso. we continue the saturday political club on the spresa tv channel, khrystyna yatskiv, vitaly portnikov, we continue to talk about the trends of 2023 and plans for... october 2023 was marked by a new war in the middle east, it seems to me that we should stop a little bit on this, since it is a parallel war with what is happening on our territory, and this a certain burden on the united states, as

a country on which a lot depends, both in that and in another case. i have often asked you, mr. vitaly, in our programs, whether it is possible to deploy such, you know, ... a textbook third world, as we imagine it, with nuclear winters, explosions and so on, and you recently pointed out that it is unlikely or rather it will be a combination of such smaller... conflicts, meat grinders and our task not to be one of them, to do everything to stop being one of them, if to talk about the middle east and again about the world trends that are emerging, south america, maybe i don't know if we can say that we are already halfway, you know, to this kind of conflict of the world, i think that we already there, you know, i stood there so many times on the balcony, from which i opened, huh. to old jerusalem, and i always thought there, when looking at all this, how is it at all

possible that i will one day see this landscape already in a peaceful, settled conflict, in a peaceful city in which there will be absolutely it is obvious that jews and arabs can live side by side and not perceive each other as enemies, as a danger, and this has been happening for decades, up to the moment that i can look at it now. exclusively on television plasma, and i've always thought that the middle east conflict is just a textbook of how different forces can use dangerous trends to achieve their own results, uh, and you said a parallel war, and i think , that this is not a completely accurate description, this is not a parallel war, this continuation of this war, i think i told you that in 2022 in

march, i think i wrote a text to the israeli media in which i predicted this conflict, and precisely because i assumed that it would continuation of the ukrainian conflict, and i did not agree with those of my colleagues in israel, with experts and with politicians who said that this is another war, and now in israel, by the way, they do not think that it is a parallel war, that is why there. .. can afford a harsh tone in his conversations with vladimir putin, because everyone understands that it is one and the same conflict situation, and by and large, when iranian drones appeared in the sky over ukraine, i also asked, what is this coincidence, do you think that they are just supplying russia with weapons of action, they are still using all this as a training ground, they generally look at how the ukrainian army acts, how the russian army acts in the proposed conditions, because by and large

these are armies of different mobilization and military-technical potential, how can any army, in a military-technical sense , much weaker than the attacker, stop him actions? i think that the iranians still really wanted to see, they just didn’t have the chance to see how the streets would be... the battles, ugh, they needed a war for kyiv and also drones during such a war, but is it, excuse me, is it mariupol could not demonstrate to them, to a certain extent he could also demonstrate mariupol and azovstal, because they wanted to see how the hamas could act in such a situation of serious urban development, and how they could hold certain positions for a long time, what the israelis could do in the situation obtaining such positions. hamas, all of this was absolutely necessary for them and they needed their military equipment to be somehow

present, so that they also understood its capabilities, i said that this is not an accident, and indeed by and large the war in the middle east, it is also an illustration of the misunderstanding of the danger, because many people said before this war, the same thing that was said ... to the ukrainian authorities before putin's attack, that the most dangerous thing you can do for an aggressor, a potential one, is to create the illusion of weakness, because then you can and you will win, but you will not be able to make up for all that you have lost. the prime minister of israel, benjamin netanyahu, was told: the issue is not judicial reform, the issue is what you are dividing, mr. prime minister. society, that in order to stay in power, you establish coalitions with the most

marginal political forces on the right wing, which in turn also divides the israelis, that you already hear reservists saying that they will not join the defense army, this slogans, but if our enemy hears these slogans, he may think, and maybe it's time in order to attack, if the jewish state is so weak ... as it has never been in its history, then at least we can strike it in a way that we could never strike in other situations, and that is the weakness of the institutions, because when started with institutions. to rule the ignorant, when a conflict is artificially created between the ignorant and the professionals, as was the case with the far-right ministers in netanyahu's cabinet, it really creates the illusion for the enemy that he will destroy you quickly, at least give you the kind of blow that in another situation could never have been inflicted, and

that we did not have such a situation before 2022, we had exactly the same situation, we explained. why, say, is it dangerous to hold a meeting in the norman format in paris? because it will create an absolutely unrealistic expectation of ukraine's capitulation in vladimir putin. and it is not known how he will react to the unpreparedness of our new government for such a capitulation. why is it dangerous to carry out this whole process at all. search for a dialogue with the dpr and lpr, because russia will create the illusion that it lures us into traps, and if we do not fall into these traps, this in turn will create the idea of ​​the need to resolve the conflict by force, because these are weak people, they are trying to come to an agreement with us somehow, but they cannot, we will push them , this very situation

of institutionalism, when... people who had nothing to do with them were appointed to leading positions in critical structures, already created the impression among the russians that they would be able to easily take the situation under control, and when we know this famous phrase about the fact that if we strengthened the army, we would not be able to build roads in the required number, well, that's not what i told her, and this phrase one way or another, it illustrates not only the attitude of the ukrainian authorities to the situation, it illustrates the attitude of the russian authorities to the situation, they are building a road there, not strengthening the army, we need to solve this issue quickly, because if the government there changes and those who will strengthen the army and not build roads come, this is electoral democracy, they we have already seen how the rating of the current president decreases

before the war, then it will be more difficult for us to seize them , so we need this moment now, they perceived the election of volodymyr zelenskyi and the first years of his rule as a moment of absolute weakness and imbalance of the ukrainian state, and the same is true in israel, even though there was a very an experienced politician who has ruled there all his life, and in ukraine, although new faces have come to power here and there, the enemy has had an illusion of the weakness of the state, and he uh... his plans are based on this illusion, and yes, it means we can both in israel and in ukraine to get out of this situation, but at what cost, the price is actually unbearable for both countries. israel is forced to fight for dozens of days. ugh. this is absolutely not characteristic of conflicts in the middle east.

as a rule, the hot phase of the war in the middle eastern conflicts ends literally in a few days, well, in a few weeks. ugh. this causes irreparable losses for the economy, it is not known when the israeli economy will return to its pre-war level, they cannot count how many people they lost, the same for ukraine, we can stop navala, however, we already live in a world where the economy is in ruins, we have a few industries left, and that's all, well that 's all the price, the price for our lack of understanding, for ours and for israel's lack of understanding without... that's why i think that this is the continuation of wars , that dictatorships, they are sensitive to such things, you see, this is a dictator, an authoritarian ruler in general, he has the logic of a predator, if he smells blood, he goes there, you know, because if blood is already pouring, it will be easier to finish , this is a very simple logic, and it is the same in yaha sinwar, she

is the same for vladimir putin, they just feel this smell, they like the taste of blood, eh... is it possible to create a situation in which there will be so much blood that even putin will suffocate, or is it, let's say, just my visions , what i mean, returning to the topic of conflicts around the world, is whether it is possible or possible to achieve a situation when there will be so much straw on a camel that the last straw will break its back. it is desirable that it was again a camel in the form of conditional china or russia, and not the west. well, for this, the measure should act like this authoritarian regimes. yes, and for this we have to return to logic. of the cold war, but even during the cold war, the west did not want to directly intervene in any, say, areas of responsibility of moscow or beijing, but

there was no intervention in vietnam, i was in vietnam, i was in vietnam when vietnam occupied cambodia, the west did not participate in the vietnam-china war, and when the west tried to participate, the war in vietnam, let's say, is the real participation of the west, it. led to stunning results, to the actual defeat of the united states states, it must be clearly stated that the united states was defeated in the vietnam war because the republic of south vietnam, which was non-communist, was destroyed by the communists, and it is a question of whether the west can act like russia or even china , because the price of human life is different, the americans were always asking, what are we fighting in vietnam , what are we doing there, it's big... was also a problem, it weakened the communist camp, but it also weakened america, it was made of obvious conclusions afghanistan, there where there were also american troops, because how

can we interfere with vladimir putin here, this means that we should think about some conflicts that weaken the russian regime itself, create conflict situations for it, well, relatively speaking, it should... there will be conflicts on the territory of russia itself, to be precise to the end, but the west will not do anything about this, because it is outside the political ethics of the west, these will be events in the congress, questions, why did you get there, how did you give money, you can ask questions , please nato bombardment of yugoslavia, the nato bombing of yugoslavia could have taken place in a situation, i would say, when the relationship. between the west and russia and china were different than now, and when everyone knew for sure that russia would act exclusively by political methods, and when the russian leadership

tried to convince slobodan milosevic to come to some agreements with the west. as you know, viktor chornomerton met with slobodan milosevic before this. with saddam hussein, that is, but they did not use political methods, but i want to remind you if you have already mentioned the bombing of yugoslavia by nato forces, about what happened on the first day of this operation, about the symbolic event, about the crash of the plane of the prime minister of the russian federation, yevgeny primakov, who... was flying to the united states for talks with vice -president of the united states, albert gore. when primakov learned that

the decision had been made to bomb yugoslavia, he ordered the crew to change course and take a course not for washington, but for moscow. and from this moment the countdown in the new one begins russian foreign policy. anti-western, frankly anti-western, and this was even before vladimir putin appeared on the russian political scene, at the time when yevgeny primakov turned his plane around, putin was one of the high-ranking russian officials, but certainly not a person who would have to lead the country, before him there was the prime ministership of serhii stepashin and eventually putin himself. little in terms of time, many in terms of events. and by and large, we can clearly say that when nato has made a decision, it can act in such a way as to stop the genocide, to

prove to the authoritarian regimes that it will talk to them not only by political methods. russia used this opportunity to say that it will now act not only by political methods. i always reminded that moscow. will mirror any actions of the civilized world, even if these actions are justified. it is no coincidence that vladimir putin constantly cites the example of kosovo. on the one hand, we perfectly understand that kosovo is the territory where the genocide took place, in fact. that slobotan milosevic decided to expel all albanians from the territory of their many years of residence. someone lived longer. lived less, but we are talking about that century, and this was the main idea of ​​serbian chauvinism, to expel albanians from kosovo, because kosovo and serbia do not exist, there is nothing to do there. albanians, but

the subsequent recognition of kosovo's independence by the united states and other countries of the world created a precedent for russia, which putin decided to use when in 2008 he recognized the independence of abkhazia, south ossetia, and said that what abkhazia is worse than kosovo, georgia also wanted to commit genocides there, in south ossetia, abkhazia shelled. rockets, that georgians have never in their lives expelled abkhazia osatin from georgia, south ossetia, from abkhazia, south ossetia, it is the authorities of these regions who expelled ethnic georgians and put them in a situation where they turned into refugees in a decade or two, but none the less , nevertheless, it was a precedent, and then putin generally liked it, you see, this very idea i liked it, because he did not just annex crimea, er... and other regions of ukraine, he also

held referendums there, under the guise of expression of will, yes, referendums, and declared them independent states, crimea declared itself an independent state, and then held a referendum, donetsk and the luhansk people's oblast, the so-called republics , declared themselves independent states, and then held a referendum as independent states on joining russia, that is, the whole of zaporizhzhya and kherson oblasts, they even. the names did not change, it was the same comedy: an independent state, the zaporozhye region enters russia. well, what am i telling you about, he uses this mechanism all the time, the mechanism, because even the legislation of the russian federation prohibits annexing regions of other countries, until now, from the point of view of russian legislation, it is not possible to annex the region of ukraine or kazakhstan, but an independent state, well, she is independent, we recognized her independence and then

accepted that. what is the problem? this is not the first time it has happened. latvia, lithuania and estonia were admitted to the soviet union, and that vinsk people's republic, its small khural in 1944 decided to join the rsfsr as an autonomous region. there wasn't even a referendum there, but it was a quasi- independent state, because you understand that the tuvan people's republic was only recognized as a soviet state. by the 40s of the fourth year , the points of view of international law on all maps were considered part of china, that is, nothing new happened, just what we saw in asia, they began to do in europe, everything, that is, it turns out that the western world must be

maximally careful in each. his move, because putin has a habit of keeping silent and using his own co you can be careless, but you can understand the consequences, you just have to understand the consequences, when you take the first step in some situation, you have to understand how this opponent of yours will go on the chessboard, ugh, and to think what you will do next, well, the situation is like this, but now you and i have come to a new move. shah, when the west speaks, and we don't care, you create all these countries with disabilities, annex their territories, and we will still negotiate with them about the european union and nato, you will not stop us, and we will accept some into nato, and we will accept some into nato, and they are near your borders, uh, well, finland is located near the borders, in what part of the territories was already stolen in the 40s of the last century, but it's like that, well, here the question arises, you see, so i don't really

know. how can the west act in a way that russia or china cannot, but in any case it can carry out some certain economic thing, you also have to be realistic, the west has always had exaggerated expectations from its own economic pressure, and this was largely due to the fact that the west was dealing with communist regimes and planned economies all the time. and to understand that we are dealing with the market, it seems to me that this understanding is only now coming, but iran has been living under western sanctions for decades, it is completely disconnected from swift, unlike russia, there are no credit cards, there is no this, that, on the third, fifth, 10th, 25th, and iran.