on the one hand, well, on the other hand, i hope for the best, because old biden, well, he survived more than one brezhnev. olya , well, you can't change communication if you don't change real politics, because communication is actually a derivative of your political goals, from what you do politically, and you know, well, i guess i agree here, yes, it rethinking, but not only communication, this rethinking should be within politics in general. because and rethinking what, really, you're bringing in to, well, to win in general, really win , not just to sit around, not just to wait , but to win, namely to win, cannot be broadcast through state resources, for example, as i recently heard, that people over 45 years of age should fight, because what did they bring to this situation. a beautiful story, what is it,

is that the state ukrinform broadcasts it, a good idea, yes, but is it possible to win in such stories? no, it's impossible, when you start dividing your own population into groups, they are broadcast on a per-voter basis, i.e. or a younger voter, who will be elected by the ruling party, i think that we have come to the point where we have, you know, well, there are really existential notions of giving. and it's not just about walking around waving something and being in ecstasy, no, devotion is when you have to do something, because the threat is bigger than even your life, and it really requires all your strength, not only those what are you ready to invest in order not to stress too much, no, this is not the right option, not the right one at all, and you know, sometimes it seems to me that we have ukraine has such a rather difficult... path, because

some higher forces may demand from us, you know, two things, uh, it's self-respect, it seems to me, on the one hand, and in the principle of responsibility, two key things, and self-respect, it does not consist at all in running away or avoiding, it consists in , well, responding to the challenge, but look, if we have a responsibility next year. also it is absolutely not to think that someone else can, and let's now choose someone who will not take part in this now it's not about the elections, if at least two things happen to us next year, the first is that a really technocratic government of war and war economy will be created, and after that there will be not an imitation of political and european integration processes, but their implementation, and then communication will appear. because so

far we have false communication, and it is impossible to build correct communication on imitations, everything ends, this will not be the year of imitation, the 24th year will be the year of real ones, you understand, you are talking about the fact that this is false communication, because it is false politics is going on, that is, zelensky wants to be the president of victory, well, he is now the president of war, although he wanted to be the president of peace, well, we remember this history, well, he survived these few letters. he really wants to be the president of victory, he wants to win, but the question is that he doesn't quite, or his team doesn't quite understand, what kind of tools can be used to do it all, that is, they want it, that is, and probably, i think that absolutely sincerely want and prefer this and the victories that we want to win, including in the 24th year, but they must understand that victory is a great work of all ukrainians and cannot really be taken away.

send ukrainians to the front for 45, and keep ukrainians up to 25, because they are potential voters of the servant of the people party, and therefore, in this context, disperse this whole topic, or divide politically and say, here we work with these, we do not work with these , because we don't like them, but let them go and fight, and somehow they are there, we dispose of them there, that if a real domestic policy appears, a war economy government appears, then it will appear. these communication, but for this two things must appear: iq, we have with that with the supply of iq a little with shells in heavy, with missiles, with iq trust and certain rules of the game, someone must be an arbiter, so in order to put those people at one single round table, that's how it's happening in our espresso studio now, it could be americans, it could be europeans, yes, because at one time, as roman very correctly noted, the conjunction of the curlist.

britain and northern ireland at the beginning of the first world war made a military cabinet and began active communication and cooperation between the government and the opposition, that is, it was deliberate. decisions, and so, and they 've changed some portfolios, they've changed people in positions, so they've come to some agreement to not fight each other over some potential ratings, if and when it's all done, i think, colleagues, we can provide that round a table for the future military cabinet right here in lviv, and to make the most in kyiv, we can even transfer it to kyiv, together with this beautiful kibana. and wish all ukrainians happiness and goodness in the new year, we have to finish our program, thank you for the results of the year, olga len, antin barkovskyi and roman chaika were guests, and serhiy rudenko hosted people, happy new year, may god give everyone

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congratulations, friends, vitaly portnikovy is with you. our interlocutor, a well-known ukrainian historian, professor at harvard university, serhii plohii, i congratulate you, mr. serhiy, i congratulate you and the audience, you know, talking about the year 2023 with a historian is probably quite a difficult task, because if we look carefully at the disposition of what happened in 2023 from the point of view , let's say... from the point of view of people who lived through the year 2023, and from the point of view, precisely historical, we can see that this year is simply capable of falling out of history, at least ukrainian, at least the history of the russian-ukrainian war, from the end of 2022 the line of defense of ukrainian troops is not

changed, the line of confrontation between the russian and ukrainian troops in 2023 remained practically the same as it was in 2022, the hope of an offensive. in 2023 turned out to be, one might say, unrealized, and now many politicians and ordinary citizens have almost the same expectations for 2024 as for 2023, so we are talking as if it could have been at the end of 2022- well, at the beginning of 2023, we expect an offensive, we expect some special changes in the russian-ukrainian confrontation, so... however, a year has passed and nothing can be done about it, indeed, despite extremely great efforts, sacrifices, the front line did not move, that is, there were changes, of course, on

the conditional front line in the black sea, which is extremely important, but not on land, the 23rd the year began with fears. and hopes, fears were about the russian winter russian offensive, which was already taking place in january. 23rd year, and there were hopes for a ukrainian counteroffensive, in the spring, from the positives , the fact that the russian offensive did not lead to anything, that is, in the end, it became, the failure of this offensive, faced the condition of prihozhad's rebellion, but the negative, of course, consequences of the year are connected with the fact that the ukrainian counteroffensive on... did not achieve the goals that we all wanted it to achieve, and in this sense, our

conversation today , it seems to me that there is not as much of an optimistic note as it would have been a year ago, because the 22nd year ended with several ukrainian miracles or miracles from, well, miracle, miracle, probably the right term, from the kharkiv operation battle for kyiv, and at the end the liberation of kherson, today we are in a completely different, different context, and most observers and commentators actually do not have such optimistic, optimistic prospects for the 24th. the 24th seems to be shaping up to be a year where you have to hold the line that was held throughout the 23rd and prepare for... for a brand new war, you know, you talk about

2022 as the year of miracles, but to be honest, i never hope for a miracle in politics, it seemed to me that in 2022 the ukrainian armed forces used opportunities that, let's say, are given only once in a war, and this also applies to the country's political leadership also, the first of these possibilities is a misunderstanding by the russian federation... the actor , i would say, of national statements between ukrainians and russians, and this misunderstanding still continues, we saw it from the speeches of the president of russia vladimir putin in a direct line at the collegium of the ministry of defense russia, where he basically repeated the same thoughts about ukraine that he expressed in his articles and speeches even before the start of the war, and also the effect of surprise, the unpreparedness of the russian federation for a massive attack on the entire ukrainian areas with the use of large quantities. troops allowed the ukrainian troops to defend the north and

prevent kyiv from capturing other cities in the north of our country, and the effect of surprise allowed the ukrainian troops to liberate the kharkiv region in 2022, but then the real war began, i would say, with the use of the necessary mobilization and military technical resources, and you need to have them for this, and you need to be aware of how the enemy will act, because... in 2023 , it turned out to be a surprise for many the ability of the russians to build effective defense fortifications on the lines they occupy on ukrainian territory, and also an important political point, which is that the political leadership of ukraine, which in 2022 could count on, i would say, the unconditional support of the western world, faced a situation when it is necessary to persistently seek this support both in the political and diplomatic sense of the word, to win for it, and i can also say a lot about this. turned out to be completely unprepared, indeed, in fact, in the 22nd year, he succeeded

to win in what putin called a special military operation, and in the 23rd year the situation, the situation changed, in fact , putin began to prepare for a long war, which in the 22nd year, in the middle of the 22nd year, when he gave the relevant tasks. .. by the ministry, i.e. the economy of the country was being rebuilt on military, on military rails, and then i remember, i and probably many other people who received this information, actually thought that this was planning for the future from the point of view of russia, which will not happen, i.e. we all believed that in one form or another with... the phenomenon of prigozhin, associated with great russian losses, associated with

disappointment, and it appeared, but his regime survived it. and today we are really, we are really in a completely different situation, it is said that the methods we used both inside the country and outside its borders, in fact, have already exhausted themselves today, and a change in the perception of horizons is needed. changing the way of thinking, the way of discourse as well, that is , in the west, and this is where i understand the situation more, so to speak, the argument that was extremely important in the 22nd year about the support of democracy, about the victim of aggression and so on and so on, begins to be less and less effective when eh, so the money that goes to the united states of america exceeds 100, 100 billion dollars, that is, here, here a completely different argument

and a completely different idea should appear, this is a question about the future of the event, actually it is that... on monday , a special issue of the wall street journal appeared about the past year and the next year, and my article was there precisely on this topic, what i was trying to convey to american readers and those who make decisions, and of course a change is needed, a change of approach in ukraine, but here i leave it - this topic rather to you, that is , i... i am in ukraine, but more, more i understand, of course, what is happening in to the west well, by the way, i would like to stop with you on this point, because really , by and large, i encountered a situation when i felt not only in the west, but also in ukraine the

surprise that i always had when meeting with by the assessments of the so-called soviet experts. absolute understanding of the political situation in russia, that was absolute for me it is obvious that everything that happens with prigozhin, around prigozhin, is a deliberate action that strengthens the authority and power of the russian president vladimir putin, and that even the so-called prigozhin mutiny is a carefully designed special operation to strengthen the russian regime, no matter how it ends , because it must be remembered that the entire pogozhin special operation was directed not against putin, but against putin's closest entourage, putin was simply being offered. so to speak, with the help of this march to moscow, which never happened, and maybe never will should have taken place, to choose a more understandable environment, which will more effectively fight against ukraine. well, it helped to destroy the very institution of private military companies, that is, to finally bring russia to the rank of a totalitarian state in which there can be no alternative military groups. by

and large, this has always been the case in the history of russia, remember, the story with peter the first and the archers by and large. and russia, which we have, as a strong, cruel empire, ready to fight for foreign territories, was formed just after the shretsky rebellion, and from this the reason is historical works and pictures that we all saw in childhood, if not in museums, then in textbooks, and when he is exactly the same political situation, mr. serhiy, all historians turned out to be paralyzed, as if they had not read anything and did not know , these are both specialists and analysts. i was surprised, i will tell you honestly, well, i apply history a little differently in relation to prigozhin's rebellion, for me it is a classic repetition of the situation from august 1991, when one of

the serfs or serfs revolts in order to attract or return attention attention that is, the same kryuchkov and others first came to bow to gorbachev and actually tried to stop the signing of the treaty on the renewed union then, because the renewed union meant that they all had to resign, and the putsch ended with the fact that they serfs returned to gorbachev again, asking him in order for him to forgive them, that is, the rebellion was about... the situation and maintaining their positions inside, inside the top, and that, this is the same thing that i saw in prigozhin, because the deprivation of prigozhin's army meant, it also meant a physical threat to him and his life, and what he was rebelling against, he

was not rebelling against the tsar, he was rebelling in the name of the tsar, since, since in russian history up to quite often he... happened, what, what with "it became clear in 23 and what was not in 91, this is what did not appear in, let's say, yeltsin, that is, conditional yeltsin, navalny or someone else, was completely outside, outside the political field, outside the possibility to mobilize the same muscovites or someone else, either in support of prigozhin or in defense of putin. and then the deprivation of putin, that is, this moment is different, and the fact that in russia they are not standing against the tsar, but for the benefit of the tsar, well, this, it means from... the story is quite, quite long and quite ancient. well, i think what you said is very important, because it means that the russian political

leadership has made some good decisions since 1991 . it was not for nothing that yeltsin was a person who resisted the gkchcp, he represented an alternative center of power, he was the universally elected, popularly elected president of the russian federation, who, moreover, could rely on the people's elected representatives deputies of russia. by the way, if we recall the shooting point with you, then there was also an interesting story there, because peter the first, who fought with the shooters, somehow knew that his opponents could rely on the authority of a more legitimate monarch, the eldest son of the tsar, ivan, tsar ivan, and tsarina sophia, who was then the tsarina, in the moscow kingdom she could also appear as a representative of the interests of the legitimate monarch. because by and large, if we are honest, peter i was a usurper of power, he took it away from the hands of the legitimate monarch, who had a legitimate right to succession, and the russian political

elite must give it due, it is clear that there are no alternative centers of power and even centers of opposition in the russia that putin is building, which, according to his opinion, belong to return to the borders of the soviet union in 1991 , and maybe further, it should not be, this was not realized by oleksiy navalny, who was returning to russia. realizing that he was signing a virtual death warrant and that his political influence in this future russia would be reduced to zero, but we had that understand? i think you raised several topics here, one of which seems to me to be more important than the others, this is also the ability of the russian authorities to learn from experience and from mistakes as well, that is, except for eh... conclusions regarding yeltsin from 1991, other conclusions were related to the fact that now national autonomies do not have any special rights

compared to other subjects of the russian federation, i.e. a repetition of the collapse of the soviet union is constitutionally impossible within the same framework in the russian federation, and that's the end. russians have been studying it for several years, that is, we hear about it on the battlefield, we hear about it from our military, from commanders, and in this sense, to underestimate the enemy is absolutely absolutely, so to speak, the biggest mistake that we can make today. it seems to me that it is important not only not to overestimate, it is also important to understand correctly, and i have this... quite serious conclusion that russia is not understood more in ukraine than even in those countries that have never been a part of it together with russia a single state body. it's me

it is confusing, because just as russians are not ready to understand russia, because they consider ukraine, because they consider it an extension of the russian civilizational organism, and every time they meet with another development of the situation, they think that it is some kind of wrong. the ukrainians, who simply need to be destroyed, all the others are correct, do not draw any conclusions, they simply believe that some people who are on the payroll of the department, or even are supporters of some nazi ideology there, as vladimir putin says, and if ukraine clear from of all these people, then all others will be the same russians as all russians loyal to the kremlin. in the same way, ukrainians believe that russians cannot be different, and every time they meet with proof that... in russia everything happens completely differently than in ukraine, they simply fall into a stupor, so i will repeat myself a little from an interview, but from

an interview in print, not on television, eh, i once, just thinking about it, said that ukraine is not russia, we know and we won it, but we are surprised to discover it. .. for myself, that russia is not ukraine, that is, we are surprised by russia, because to a certain extent we also attack them, our way of thinking, our mentality, we would never start this war, and we would never conduct it in the way that russia conducts it, well, what valery zaluzh says, but i was surprised that russia did not stop the war when such a large number of victims, yes, yes, yes, yes, and from this point of view... and here i would say so i will pull the blanket over myself already institutionally, in fact , what we need in ukraine is rethinking.

in russia, we need actually decent russian studios, because we, we, make the same mistakes that the russians make, who do not research us, do not study us, and we have the same situation, this may be an unpopular opinion, when the main trend is now in ukraine about the fact that it is necessary to cancel all-russian, but we need knowledge about russia. without this, without knowledge and awareness, not only our biggest neighbor, the most aggressive and deadly neighbor, well, our future looks very doubtful, i want to support you, mr. sergey, because i believe that this idea of ​​canceling russia, so to speak, is a trend of resentment and deep contempt, which is connected with russian victims on the territory of ukraine, however, if ukraine at all wants to survive as a sovereign state, even

more so, if ukrainians... want to keep their territories as a people, because this is also an open question in history, now that we see all the determination, and a long struggle, we should know russia better than the russians themselves, but we read the history of russia, in the interpretation of the conditional karamzin, in the interpretation conditional solovyov, now in the interpretation of language, you wrote ukrainian history, hrytsak. wrote a history, his interpretation of the history of ukraine, we know that ukrainian civilization itself began there with how hrushevsky saw the history of ukraine, then there was the famous textbook of suptelny. it is possible to list and list the ukrainian historians who wrote the history of ukraine, which differs from its russian version. question number one, which of the ukrainian historians wrote the history of russia?

where is she? i think that this is an absolutely urgent, urgent task, i also thought about the example of the poles, from whom there is a lot to learn, but they have such world recognition, the history of russia was created by richard pipes , an emigrant, a jewish emigrant from poland, interwar poland, by origin, his father is from lviv, from rank, which has become not just one, but one of the most powerful and defined, and we have this task ahead of us, i remember the words of the then minister or, excuse me, people's commissar of foreign affairs in the mid-1930s affairs of litvinov, who wrote in a letter to a colleague that the west, when it talks about the soviet union, does not understand anything, the poles understand...

but they understand too well, so we have to find ourselves in the situation of the poles, understand russia too well, so well that for them it was an uncomfortable idea. well, here is an important point, if you mentioned richard pipes, i suddenly remembered one of his theses about russia, theses, which, by the way, he was able to write after he had been to the soviet union many times. he said that russia... on his beliefs very often lie simply out of love for art, they lie for the sake of lying, because lying itself is a part of life and a part of survival, and it seems to me that even here russians do not really understand ukrainians, because if a ukrainian lies, he is undertaken with a purpose, he has a purpose and thanks to which he wants to hide or smear or distort information, and the russians can lie just like that, a person who has never

lived in russia. i lived in russia, for many decades, i can confirm this thesis of pipes, she will never understand this, always when she is betrayed, deceived, they will look for the purpose of why she was deceived, and she was deceived just like that, and this is the same mental difference that is important, but it is very important for me to understand to what extent ukrainians will be aware of how these two civilizations that have been together for so long are actually different, uh, so, that is... the question, the question, i think, here is also related to empire and a certain form of empire, in which, well, let's say, byzantium, sometimes it is said about the east, where actually the truth is surrounded by many, many falsehoods, that is, and this, it became, it became

a cultural code, pybes tacos... very interestingly turned out to be beloved.