i'm sure that these people, the authors of these comedy shows, they don't think about any post-colonial theories, they just know that it works, yes, that is, it worked and it still works, uh, and they reproduce it, although , well, again, i had to watch several recent episodes of these shows, well, it is clear that there the ideas are completed, that is, it is actually such a running in circles, so there are the same funny jokes. whether some mustachioed ukrainians are bad as such, there is nothing else there, it is actually running in circles, using the same stereotypes, but some segment of the ukrainian community, unfortunately, they obviously like it, and they obviously like it, but here, for example, we are now showing this diesel show, and it is also some kind of hutsul, he speaks absolutely in some language, well mockingly, so it shows.

and this gotsul, well, in principle, it seems to me that no one is forcing us, ukrainians , to identify with this person, or to identify with these stereotypes about ukrainians, so with this fat, these endless endless endless coming in on on on this on this nonsense , it's happening around the fact that once again the quarter eh... this is this is a very good signal, one of the signals, because it's, well, it's much bigger than it was before, yeah, so that's it already some kind of talking about problems, and well, for me, this is a certain signal that we are adults, that we stop liking it, didn’t the quarter have it, i forgot who it was, it seems that the quarter had ebonite sticks, señor holodomor, ukraine there is a prostitute who is looking for money, and

a burning pine was burning, what about a burnt house gontarev, the head of the national bank, didn't this happen, didn't it, but the reaction was no , actually i think that this is the difference, then there was indignation, yes, but it was not so large-scale, eh, that is, after according to the way the community reacts, it seems to me that we are growing, or at least i want to believe, yes, but it seems, it seems that there is progress, that is, already some... things society stops arranging and society is ready, well , to simply defend its dignity, because it is pathetic, and you know that i wonder what when if you look, if you look at the previous editions, let's say, the quarter of 1995, it was sold out at the palace of ukraine, as i understand it, yes, then you can see a lot of people's deputies of various convocations there. there you can see

the former president, the former prosecutor general there, and everyone liked it, and everyone found it very funny, so to those people who are criticizing it now, that is, obviously there is really some, some kind of evil, i want to ask you about the new culture of ukrainian stand-up, i don't know if you're watching it, i'm trying to monitor it and see if you like it more... decolonized, first of all, and does it look closer to russian or western american stand-up, let's say, well, without a doubt, that's a completely different story, i'm not a fan of stand-up, yes, but i think , that this is a movement in the right direction, it is without a doubt something that works according to western models, clearly, there are

several, several levels, in fact, which, why i like it, that is, you can disagree with some specific jokes there, you can talk about some sloppiness there, one way or another, but there are several things , firstly, well, usually it is still a much more intellectual thing than, than, than a diesel show or a quarter, well, it is banal because when there, you know, serhiy bychkov... about postmodern khinkali, well, you should at least understand , if you should, you should be a little more intellectually savvy, the second thing is that very often there, right messages are sewn here and there, yes, if you look at the same anton tymoshenko there, others after all, that is, there are there are a lot of right things sewn into this zashi humor. whether about ukrainization, yes or not

about the relationship with the armed forces of ukraine, or, oh god, forgive me, about aristovych, and that is what this humor is already using. it's like a tool to spread some, well, in my opinion, right things. besides, well, i don't see, well, maybe i'm lucky, maybe it's there somewhere, but here are these vulgar national stereotypes, well, i don't see it there, and it's very important, that is, they can slip something somewhere, somewhere, but it's not the basis, but in these older generation of humorous shows, this is often the very basis, but almost the main feature, so i it seems that stand-up is a qualitative step , a leap even forward compared to, well , what else did we grow up on, and i know that you are often in central europe, yes, in particular in the czech republic, have you tried to compare

us , let's say, if you take a segment of not very smart humor, so stupid humor, in other countries it is also there, yes, i know that it is in... america, i know that it is like that in europe too, let's say , in central europe, have you tried to compare, our humor below the plinth with their humor below the plinth, they, they differ, actually, by this self-deprecation of ours, yes or no, well, humor below the plinth is really the same everywhere, yes, the point is that, well, for example, the same czechs, yes, they often laugh at themselves, in general very like that, well, laugh. their culture is very developed, but so is american stand-up, but there they laugh so much that what would happen in our country, even in our country, they would probably lose consciousness there, but there is a difference in context, yes, that is, there are things that, when you

click on these some national language the question in ukraine, well, it is completely different than in the same czech republic, and you can laugh at some turns there. well, of course, when you watch czech stand-up there, if this stand-up takes place in prague, then they will make fun of brno, if it takes place in brno, then they will make fun of the people of prague , just as you can and can't, that's normal, but well, that's the difference of this particular context, because we are just coming out, we are just becoming with this monolithic community. and when you pull out some such things that are thrown away enmity, they just throw in, uh, this, this is a very stupid approach, this is a harmful approach, and this, in the conditions of war, this is, well, this is just on the verge of some kind of hostile activity, now i want

to ask you about humor in times of disasters, i was in kyiv in 1986, when the disaster at the chernobyl nuclear power plant occurred, and i remember... i remember that they said then that the ukrainians responded to the explosion in chernobyl with an explosion of humor, so i remember, there were a lot of anecdotes, various such humorous pieces, just a shaft, a whole wave, and humor during the war, is it possible, and what examples do we have of humor in war and where are the red lines, i'm sure that humor is definitely needed because it, well it... very often has some kind of therapeutic effect, the same stand-ups from time to time watch or read something , but this is also normal, that ukrainians joke, because you just have to somehow maintain a healthy sense of humor, and if you look at everything that

happens strictly with a serious face, then you can actually go crazy, so humor is necessary, but the fact is that it is my deep conviction. and it does not apply only humor, in the principle of cultural activity, especially when it goes to the general public, the main principle should be to do no harm, that is, we must understand that there is, that we live in a community, well, a very, very sick community, yes, which is in a state of war, where there are an awful lot of these red lines, and this is normal, yes, that is, we are waging... a war for survival, and thousands and thousands of people are traumatized in very different ways, this should be the main principle when you are, relatively speaking, a comedian who cooks something number, some product, you have to

go around it from all sides and think whether it will hit someone too hard, and that's exactly how it should be evaluated, actually. i have a personal problem with these and these humorous shows that we are talking about, that there, well, there is a complete lack of understanding of any ethics and , well, understanding of the context. in which you create this humor, and you read the comments on youtube , actually under these sketches, where people do not understand, people say that what is this, it gives us the opportunity not to go astray, i'm sorry, it gives you an opportunity, it absolutely does not humiliate us, and it's cool for us and that's all, and well , thousands of people write, support these actors, there is this, there is this, well, i have, you know, always when i'm asked there about history or culture, what to do, i always have

a disappointing, disappointing answer, only slow enlightenment, well, there are no revolutionary ways here, it is simply necessary to overcome it step by step, but on the other hand, you understand, we can talk about some theories, such as theories of colonialism, post-colonial traumas and so on so on and so on, but when you turn on, you turn on this new year's issue of the quarter, and there, to the tune of the falcons, they sing about the shit of the patron, well, it's not that it's not funny, it's just disgusting, but it's just in a vacuum , well, it's, it's, uh, it's not funny, uh, i just think the problem is, if a person's falconry tune doesn't mean anything, yeah, then... if it's not their cultural code, yeah then she will never understand the person for whom

this is a cultural code, yes, whether it is, or there, say, the holodomor is a sacred thing, with which it is impossible to simply say senior holodomor, absolutely, and it seems to me that this is a problem that is very difficult to solve, because we have to accept the fact that there are several socio-cultural groups of people in ukraine, they are now under missiles custom. are more interconnected, but one way or another , people are brought up in fact in different cultures, yes, do you see the expediency in this sense, that there should be some, can the state interfere in this, can someone, let's say it directly, yes, prohibit it , do not allow censor, or how, how the state should behave, but you see, we are in principle in a difficult situation, despite all the vicissitudes of democracy, and

the classics rightly said that democracy has many shortcomings, but nothing better has yet been invented, and this is really yes, on the other hand, we are in a state of war, so we must understand that certain restrictions, they have the right to exist, i think that culture, that is, to ban any culture, is in principle a very ungrateful thing, that is, that is unlikely to work, especially there at... at 21 century with all digital tools, i am convinced that the state should intervene at the moment when, well, we can really talk about, for example, inciting national or ethnic enmity, yes, that is, where this fine line already begins, the criminal code, and , when, when we really see that this... these jokes can lead to direct tension between certain communities

that make up the ukrainian people. yes, i'm sorry, i'll add now that in the diesel show there is also a skit of the new year's thing where they say the phrase tatars are a nomadic people without passports, that is, it shouldn’t be, absolutely, there was a scene in them about how the people in crimea actually are, how in... they are preparing to meet the armed forces, yes, they teach the ukrainian language there, if they say that all traitors are traitors, so is this, again, this is about a total lack of ethics, because when you are sitting on a couch in kyiv and write this script while drinking beer, and you write about people who are in occupation, well, somewhere this red light just has to light up, and what he will tell you to stop. that is, it is very often, very often it is a question of ethics itself, just so that these

people understand that this is not possible, this is simply not possible, even if you think it is funny, we are talking now, i think now about the fact that you and i, maybe these are such isolated cases when we say the word colonialism, or post-colonialism, in general, on television. somehow we were very shy about it, and we did not talk in this context about our cultural heritage, mental traumas and so on. you wrote immediately after this scandal with this 95th quarter and new year's their their this is not a skit you wrote your own post about what this is a manifestation yes you wrote the colonial inertia of colonialism the inertia of colonialism can we talk with you about why this

is the inertia of colonialism , how does it manifest itself in other cultural manifestations, and what do you need to talk about with a mass audience, or are these not too complex matters for people? i sure do, i know there are people who disagree actually there with the colonized position of ukraine for centuries, but i insist that , in particular, in the cultural plane, well, we really were in a colonized position, for this, well, these are very simply a few key factors, the most... the second thing and the simplest is russification, yes , planting the language of the conditional metropolis or regenam , that is, it was, well, i don’t know, who doesn’t know, can read ivan dzyuba, and, if, if it has to be explained, internationalism or russification, this is the rewriting of history, during the 20th century, this here are all of them stories about the reunification of ukraine with russia, about

the fact that the history of ukraine was actually erased by russian history. and this is actually this culture, yes, the culture that was within the socialist framework, but again and maximally vulgarized, these are signs that we were colonized, they often disagree with this because they say that the colonizer should bring culture, well, what about france or britain, it was the opposite in our country, okay, but this does not change the fact that thanks to military force, administrative pressure, foreign elements were implanted in us, well planted actually language, history, culture, it was, and it is quite natural that this is the inertia of colonization, it continues, this, it is not possible to simply declare independence, but we changed our consciousness, because it passed into the times of independence, well - first of all, it was a difficult language situation, it passed,

in my opinion, well, even before february 22 , the majority of... understood the essence of our relations with russia, yes, because this myth about friendly peoples, about the brotherhood of peoples, it was so deeply, simply stuffed into the ukrainian consciousness that for many people it's just that february of the 22nd year became a revelation, although in reality, well, friendship of peoples never existed, that is, a person who reads at least a little the history of the country, and this is this primitive culture, yes, that is, these are the things that have passed into time independence took root to some extent, rather it was strengthened by moscow, it took root in the ukrainian consciousness, and it is necessary, well, it is necessary to overcome it, it seems to me that these are not difficult things in the sense of explanation, so, well, that is , you understand that you are there, well kyiv is now more ukrainian-speaking than ever, probably

but you understand that there are many russian-speakers, well, they talked about this, they talked about the friendship of peoples, this... i think there is no need to explain to anyone, they talked about this colonial culture, for example, about humor, and you see, well, yes, there is something in this, i guess you know what , i often ask myself if what is happening to us is actually this post-colonial syndrome, and actually one of its manifestations, which we talked about today, so in the sense of humor, is it a natural thing or is it, you talk about evolution, but you call it evolution. such a harmful aunt who is in no hurry , she is slow, and now you see, this evolution is under, it just accelerated, yes , with russian missiles, do you think it is natural that we have been progressing so slowly for 30 years, compared to other nations, post-colonial, what kind of situation are we in, i

'm afraid that we simply, we basically had no understanding of meaning. in the broadest sense of the word, this is, unfortunately, what always happened in moscow, but in moscow they always understood very well how the language works, why the language works, and how it works mascult, like why history should be rewritten, in our country, but it seems to me that in reality there is still no such understanding, it is already manifesting somewhere, but at the level of the state, in my opinion, this understanding still does not exist, that is why it is so slow, that is why that's why it's all very, very difficult. therefore, it was really accelerated by russian missiles over the whole of ukraine, but compared to, for example , india, or african countries. when in the 47th year, we continue to see signs that they continue to overcome this colonial legacy, that is, in this sense, you

do you agree that it is not really that long, these 30 years that we have lived, in general, so, well, that is, we must understand that if we want to find some starting point, although it is very conditional, yes, but if according to the starting point of russian colonialism , of moscow ... colonialism, take the pereyaslav council in 1654, well, you can compare it like this, that is , we are talking about 350 years of colonialism, and we have just started to fight it for 30 years, i am sure that it can be done faster, if more was invested in it the state, if there were more resources in this , if it was some kind of, you know, strategy, it doesn't have... there are, there are, there are some crazy enthusiasts who are trying to somehow explain it, spread it, engage in education, well, okay, we have to to work, my last

question is, do you think that this is an irreversible process, because when we talk about these cultural codes and, in other words, scientists are talking about neurobiologists, they are talking about these neural connections, yes, that were formed there in us in childhood, which in which... are associated with irony the destinies of novorichnym and olivier, young parents, happy, somehow, a happy family there and so on, that is, we have ties that are purely biological, so to this whole heritage of russian, soviet and russian masculinity, and whether or not in in this sense, what is happening now, what we are going through, this missile decolonization, or do you think this is irreversible history? well, you can’t be categorical here, yes, but it seems to me that what i observe in some younger segment, but younger than me, actually speaking, segments of culture, and this is again

about that kind of stand-up, and, for example, those people who listen to, well, they no longer exist at all, these soviet, post-soviet narratives, well, because it simply died out for them, this is not their culture, in this sense i remain. city , besides, well, it's hard for me to imagine that after everything that russia has done, in 10 years, in the last two years, and what else, well, unfortunately, judging by everything, russia will have time to do, uh, i it's hard to imagine us returning to this rut, of some kind of friendship, fraternities, and you know, and sat there on autumn evenings, read pushkin's poems , because... too deep a trauma, and well, i believe that we are old enough to realize it, well, if not now, then really

probably never thank you for the conversation. radomir mokryk, historian, cultural expert, was a guest of his own names. it seems to me that this was an important conversation about how important it is for us to get rid of the colonial heritage, self-deprecation, some kind of ... destructive humor of a low-quality self, how important it is for us to eradicate from ourselves the russian soviet cultural codes, it is not necessary not to look into the mouth of russian intellectuals, to actually remember who we are, and in the last few years we have seen how intelligent, powerful and cultured we are, and we are captivating even the world with it. thank you for being with us, we will see you next time. of the week in the project own names, all the best, thank you, thank you,

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in ukraine, it is 6 p.m. news time on the tv channel espresso in iryna koval's studio. one person died due to enemy shelling in kharkiv oblast. two more were injured, including a teenager. the russians hit the village of nechzludavka. died... a ten-year-old civilian. another woman was injured, the regional prosecutor's office said. residential buildings, commercial buildings and cars were destroyed in the settlement. the enemy also attacked the village of sinkovo. a 17-year-old boy received a shrapnel wound. the russians hit populated areas with anti-aircraft guns. the russians attacked the city of krolovets in the sumy oblast. enemy hit with a rocket and