greetings, good evening, my name is myroslava barchuk, and this is a self-titled program, a joint project of ukrainian foam and the espresso tv channel. so, today the topic we want to talk about is ukrainian wartime humor and the post-colonial syndrome. what i mean, for years and decades , the russian empire through its... literature, art, later the soviet empire through its show business, comedy shows, kvn and so on, depicted ukrainians as such poor hochlovs, with herrings, with mustache who chew lard and so on, it has been since time, this is not a decade, this is a century, because if we take ukrainians, heroes of classical russian literature, for example, ferdyshchenko in dostoyevsky, if you do not know, read, then

this is this image of a ukrainian, if it is not an idiot, not a moron, then a traitor or some very unpleasant person, and 33 years ago we gained independence, but for some reason, in our already mainstream humor, we continue to portray ourselves as these scumbags, what makes us, or who makes us behave like that, joke about yourself like that, and i... it is related to the post-colonial syndrome, i am talking about this today with radomir mokrenko, my guest. radomir is a historian, a cultural expert, and i enjoyed reading his book "rebellion against the empire of the ukrainian sixties", and i strongly advise you to read it, and today we are talking about humor. congratulations radumyr. congratulations. so, why we are talking about it is clear, the society was shaken and very outraged by the joke on new year's eve. the 95th quarter

about a resettled woman from skadovsk, which is now an occupied territory, where a girl from skadovsk badly mutilates a ukrainian language, as if he looks absolutely stupid in his attempt to speak ukrainian, and here are the people, somehow, some intuitively, some completely logically, said that it is not just bad... taste, but also self-deprecation. so you wrote about the ethos of self-deprecation and the image of this sloppy slob. let's start with this - with who created and when this image of this stupid fool. well, in principle, the origins of this phenomenon can really be sought in russian culture, russian literature, somewhere, well, at least from the 19th century. 19th

century in russia, it was enough paradoxical, in fact somewhere in the first half it is still ukrainophile in some sense, in a very peculiar sense, it is when gogol writes, yes, when others write, there is such an interest, intrigued by these ukrainians, and those who somewhere in the west of the empire, they are there, eh... that’s exactly gogol, well , gogol cannot be called a ukrainophobe, but gogol, as always, is paradoxical, and it is he who actually creates this idea of ​​a drinking and dancing tribe, it comes with notes of you know, curiosity about aborigines, the fact is that then the political situation changes, that is, the polish uprisings take place. er

, the ukrainian national movement is gaining strength, and it is perceived as a threat, as separatism, that is, the ukrainian national movement, for the russian empire is separatism, and that's when this trend changes, and it changes in a sharply negative sense, ukrainians become not so interesting element, ukrainians become a dangerous element, and somewhere from the middle of the 19th century , a very... typical image of this khokhla, who has some national attributes, yes, that is, there are national clothes and a herring, and these are always very primitive such characters, they are not so much, well, there are some acutely negative ones, as you mentioned, like in dostoevsky, but it is rather like this a mocking, mean, stupid man, and not to be silent, actually and always. to cover up

with authority, i really like it, it is very important that already in the 20th century volodymyr vennychenko wrote an open letter to russian writers. and he is there literally he writes, he writes what he said, colleagues, well , remember, what is not ukrainian among you, then some kind of fool, then some cunning, lazy, well, simpleton, and that is, this is a trend that during the 19th century acquires, well, really , really such, well, discourse , yes, that is, this is some stereotypical image that is present in turgenev, yes, he writes about it, well , criticism of bilinsky, of course, yes, which makes fun of the ukrainian language, and there also mocks shevchenko , or rather tries to mock, that is, the core of it all comes from there, from russian culture, because it was important for the russians to show that they are the dominant cultural force, that is, to humiliate this one, this

other one, and the natsmensha, to show that he is worse, this is extremely important for the empire, and this is what russian culture was engaged in and after and in the 20th century, and it migrated somewhere. until today do you remember how mina mazayly says: i feel that ukrainianization is a way to turn me into a provincial, that is, a slob. yes, that is, it is already then, yes, mykola kulish records that it already exists, that is, we can say that in this phenomenon was already recorded in the mid-20s. absolutely, because this tradition, it goes to the soviet union according to the same logic, right? that is, there is some kind of, well... outbreak of ukrainization, okay, but the logic of the empire does not change, this is the assignment of roles, yes, who is the main one here, who is better, who, on the contrary, is just some kind of ridiculous appendage, and some kind of offshoot from the great of the russian people, it remains in

the soviet union unequivocally, yes, and of course these best intellectuals record it, and here is the soviet union, already pigeons lights of the soviet union. which my generation fell behind, and i remember shtepsel and terapunka, this duet that was loved by millions of ukrainians, where shtepsel is a russian-speaking person, shown to be such a soviet intellectual, yes, and terapunka is also weak, ukrainian-speaking, such a surzhi-speaking, well, such an irreproachable uncle, and uh, i think i ask myself all the time why millions of ukrainians didn't... notice that this was a mockery of them, yes, why there wasn't actually such rejection, such humor in soviet ukraine, and we still haven't reached before independence, but that's it how do you explain that this is so, and there are still people who like to admire the actor tymoshenko, i also think that he is a good actor,

but this drama was his big one, yes, why did people not notice this humiliation, well, i think that ukrainian culture by... in general, in the soviet empire, these are the slogans, and there it is national in form, proletarian in content, and then socialist in content, that is, in general , the cultural policy of the soviet union was reduced to the primitivization of national cultures, so when when this culture small to be reduced there to needlework, to some purely ethnographic things, and to be socialist in content, of course, but... that is, this is about the fact that culture, it is already suppressed, it is largely based on the tradition of this inferiority, well, fictitious, but well, in the culture of the submitted , inferiority of ukrainians, eh, and

here shtepselinka appears, yes, which works in the same way, although at the same time, well, i have been thinking a lot lately, purely for the academic purposes of shtepselinka and terapunka, well, that's enough. these stereotypes are well hidden, yes, that is, if you are not if you think about it, if you just turn on the tv there before dinner and watch, you may not notice it, you may not see that the roles are very clearly set here, well, now it is very visible, now it is visible, so that we, our optics have changed, yes, that is, we are beginning to understand how culture worked, as a tool of actual colonization, then against the background of this culture, in principle, it was... battered, it looked like, well, okay, and, that is, that’s how it is works and i just think people haven't thought about it they just didn't see it from this point of view, although it is, well, it is there, of course it is , ugh, so already, that is, there was a trap, some kind of mental one, yes, in which we have already fallen and

fixed ourselves, yes, and i i read your article where you talk about the kvn, and please tell me how you... have the ethics of the kvn itself and the ethics and humor of the kvn itself, and do you share the opinion that it was also controlled by the kgb bodies. in particular , were the necessary messages sent through kvn in soviet times as well? well, you know, as a historian, i like to operate on some concrete facts, me i don’t have documents that confirm that it was controlled by the kgb, but uh, well, it was possible and not necessary, for this it was enough there, relatively speaking, the ideological ideological departments of the party’s tskakom, uh, what the kvn absolutely definitely worked like us as a tool of propaganda, well, there is practically no doubt about that, because when you look at

the content of these numbers, uh, well, everything is permeated there, well, with various topics, there you can see the friendship of peoples, and well, ideology as such, of course, there is the construction of light, of the communist future and so on and the like, and of course, again, this factor is, well, some kind of actual self-humiliation of national minorities. this is a thing that was very popular, and what is important, well , for the sake of fairness, it was not some, you know, purely ukrainian trick, yes, it is, it is in general, there are kazakhs, tajiks, and to come to moscow, and there to make fun of some your national, well, real or imaginary shortcomings, well, there were a lot of them, and this, it worked, well, logically, yes, because you come to... a big concert, there for you the bureau of the central committee is watching, relatively speaking, and you

are doing what this soviet elite likes, because, well, the soviet union, no matter how much it talks about the friendship of peoples, well, we know that there was only one people there equal among equals, and accordingly, accordingly, this is how it worked, without a doubt, but here you are talking about what you and i are talking about, that not only we, but... also other peoples of other soviet republics, they fell into this trap, well, in fact , we can talk about this as a post-colonial syndrome and the sense of self and self-presentation of those nations that were colonies for a long time perceive themselves through the eyes of the metropolis and want to please the metropolis, but in the 91st year, we, ukraine, will gain independence and go. long decades, so long decades, in which we would in principle have had time

to reflect and look at ourselves in the optics of this post-colonial one, and for some reason we did not do it, it seems to me what is the reason for this and whether we could, is it possible absolutely natural evolutionary the way is so post-colonial after so many centuries of colonialism, well, that is, really this one... here this approach of some kind of mirroring, well , conditional and or regens to the metropolis, it really works like that, that is, when a person, when a community is in a colonized position for a long time, it automatically begins to somehow compare itself to these colonizers, to somehow try to see through their eyes, this this is actually this trauma, and it is with us, well, it is already possible, thank god not now, but it lasted for a very long time already in independent times. i think that this problem, well, it is very broad, in my deep

conviction, we have, in principle, in the 91st year, well there was no mental break with the empire, there were not many rethinkings, yes , that is, it is some kind of continuation, well, even the very fact that the soviet nomenclature remained in power there for a long time, yes, well, there was no space for... a total reassessment of values, the simplest example , well, these are dissidents, yes, if we look at how , for example, with the dissident movement, society works in the czech republic or in poland, and in ours, well, this is a huge difference, yes, you mean reading the texts, recognition theirs, awareness of their role in all this, yes we, we have just recently, in recent years, somehow started to move in this direction, but... well, in the same czechoslovakia, okay, i understand, vaclav havel came to power there, a different situation, but it somehow overturned

the values, yes , that is , the emphasis was placed on who was actually right, who was not, but this did not happen in our country, and it metastasized into the culture as such, and in particular regarding this self-presentation of mainstream humor and so on and so forth, and i or when we're talking about, say... mainstream comedy shows, not just quarter 95, and there are some diesels there, some other movies , shows, a crazy wedding, and... everything that is considered funny, now, yes, is it, can we consider it ukrainian humor, is it correct to call it ukrainian humor, is it just some kind of segment of humor, or is it that, as you evaluate it from the point of view of a cultural scientist, well, it seems to me that this is actually to a large extent this post-colonial

syndrome, yes, that is, it is humor that is not... no reflected on this trauma, which is based on the same things, conditionally speaking, well quarter yes, here he is, well he continued the same, during the years of independence, already as a studio quarter 95, or what they do now, the same diesel, and so on, that is, when in fact one of the main features, motives of his creative work. there is mockery or self-mockery based on some national or linguistic features, that is , this very, very peculiar tradition of humor continues, well, this also applies to great uncles and all this production, at the same time , it seems to me that we are beginning to move despite everything,

well, there are signs that we are coming out of it, then ok, if possible, then we will talk about where we are going. we will talk later, but i want to dwell on this part, i, if i understand correctly, that you do recognize that this is ukrainian humor, yes, no matter how post-colonial it may be, it is still a part of our culture, and what is the reason that it is so popular in society eh, well yes, i think whether we like it or not, but it is part of our culture in the broadest sense of the word, yes culture is duh very much. such a vast field, and it is somewhere somewhere a manifestation of this post-colonial syndrome, i think that it is actually due to, well , due to a certain upbringing for generations, yes, when uh, well, this was considered funny, in literature, in pop culture, that is, this is what

was imposed , why wasn't there. very alternatives, yes, that is, we are talking about, about the soviet totalitarian system, which actually shapes tastes, and this was considered ridiculous, er, that is, and it seems to me that in particular in kvn, yes, that these, these things shifted to a large extent already in the days of independence, uh, that there is no, you know, there is a conscious operation of a diesel or a quarter on this one, when you say these things. you mean that low-grade, not very intelligent humor is what we call vulgarity with the russian word zhlobstvo, so that is, it was transferred with the fact that i am convinced that these people, the authors of these humorous shows, they do not think about some post-colonial theories , they just know it works, yeah, i mean it

worked, and it still works, er, and they 're reproducing it, although, well... again, i had to look at the last few ot episodes of these shows, well, it can be seen that there the ideas are completed, that is, it is actually like running in circles, so are those same funny hutsuls or are they some naughty ukrainians with mustaches as such, there is nothing else there, it is really just running around circle, using the same stereotypes, but some segment of the ukrainian community, unfortunately, they obviously like it. and they obviously like it, but here, for example, we are now showing this diesel show, and this is also some hutsul speaking, he speaks absolutely some language, well, mockingly, this is how this gotsul is shown, well, in principle, it seems to me that no one is forcing us, so ukrainians, to identify ourselves with this person, so or to identify

ourselves with these stereotypes about ukrainians, so with this lard, these endless endless things in a circle on this on this is nonsense and equally it is millions and millions of views, don't ukrainians want it to be as if we are smarter and than this, we are cooler, we have already shown that we are much cooler than this, so we saw ourselves with our eyes world, and it is not like that, that is it is somehow... that somehow it will change, so let's be positive now, so i think, i think without a doubt that it will change, it seems to me, in fact, that we are only at the price of this. after the great war, we actually entered the phase of this decolonization in the broadest sense of the word, rethinking a lot of things, and

decolonization not only at the level of some, you know, intellectual bubbles, really as a community, so this is not a quick process, it will continue and continue, but it seems to me that even this disturbance, which now is happening around what the quarter issued again? this is a very good signal, one of the signals, because this, well, it is much larger than it was before, yes, that is, this is already some kind of talk of problems, and well , for me, this is a certain signal that we, we are more mature, that we don't like it anymore, didn't the quarter have it, i forgot who had it, it seems that the quarter had ebonite sticks, signor holodomor, ukraine is a prostitute there. is looking for money somewhere, and a burning pine was burning, what about the burnt house of the head of the national bank gontarev, isn't it there was, isn’t it, but the reaction was not

to that, actually, i think that this is the difference, then there was outrage, yes, but it was not so large-scale, that is, because of the way the community reacts, it seems to me that we are growing, well, or at least i want to believe, yes, but it seems , it seems that there is this progress, that is... already some things society stops arranging and society is ready to simply defend its dignity, that's why that this is pitiful, but you know that i wonder what when if i look, if i look at the exes editions of, let's say, quarter 95, it was sold out at the palace of ukraine, as i understand it, yes, you can see a lot of people's deputies there... various convocations there you can see the former president, the former prosecutor general, and everyone liked it, and everyone it was very funny to everyone,

yes to those people who are criticizing it now, that is, obviously there is really some kind of evil, i want to ask you about the new culture of ukrainian stand-up, i don't know if you are watching it, i try to monitor it and see if it does it look to you? more decolonized, first of all, and does it look closer to russian or to western american stand-up, let's say, well, without a doubt, that 's a completely different story, i'm not a fan of stand-up, yes, but i think that this is a movement in the right side, it is without a doubt something that works according to western models, unequivocally. there are several, several levels, actually, which are why i like him, that is, you can disagree with some specific jokes, you can talk about some inaccuracies,

uh, one way or another, but there are several things, first of all, well, it is usually a much more intellectual thing than a diesel show or a quarter, well, it’s banal because when there, you know, serhiy bychkov... jokes about postmodern khinkali, well, you should at least understand, if, you should be a little more intellectually savvy, and the second thing is that very often there, the correct messages are sewn here and there, yes, if you look at the same anton tymoshenko, others in the end, that is, there are a lot of stitches sewn into this humor. these things, whether about ukrainization, yes, or about the relationship with the armed forces of ukraine, oh god, forgive aristovych , and, that is, this humor is already being used

as a tool for spreading some, well, in my opinion, correct things, besides, well, i don’t see it, well, maybe i’m lucky, maybe it ’s somewhere, but here are these vulgar national stereotypes, well, i don't see it there. and this is very important, that is, they can slip something somewhere, but it is not the basis, but in these older generation of comedy shows, it is often the very basis, and almost the main feature, eh, so i think that well stand-up is a qualitative step, a leap even forward compared to what we grew up with, and i know that you are often in central europe, yes, in particular in the czech republic, but have you tried it? compare us , let's say, if you take a segment of not very smart humor, so stupid humor, in other countries it is also there, yes in... i know that it is in

america, i know that it is so in europe too , let's say in central europe, have you tried to compare our humor below the plinth with their humor below the plinth, they er, they they actually differ in our self-deprecation, yes or no, well, humor below the plinth is really the same everywhere, yes, the fact is that, well, for example, the same czechs, yes, they often laugh at themselves, they generally laugh a lot. .. they have such a well-developed culture of laughter, but american stand-up shows are also laughing so much that what would happen in our country, even in our country, they would probably lose consciousness from it, but there is a difference in the context, yes, that is , there are things which when you click on e here are some national-language questions in ukraine, well, that's it completely different than in the same czech republic, and you can laugh there at some inflections or

differences, differences in dialects, there, well, without a doubt, yes, yes, well, of course, when you watch czech stand-up there, if this stand-up takes place in prague, they will make fun of brno, if it happens in brno, then they will make fun of the people of prague, as you can and can't, that's normal, but the difference is in this particular context, because we are just leaving, we're just getting up with this monolithic... note and when you you pull out some such things that , well, throw in enmity, just throw in, this is a very stupid approach, this is a harmful approach, and this, in the conditions of war, it is, well, it is just on the verge of some kind of hostile activity, now i want to ask you about humor in times of disasters, i was in kyiv in 1986, when

the chernobyl disaster occurred. and i remember that they said then that the ukrainians responded to the explosion in chernobyl with an explosion of humor, so i remember there were a lot of anecdotes, various such humorous pieces, it was just that there was a whole wave, and humor during the war, is it possible, what examples do we have of humor during the war, there is a red line, i 'm sure that humor is definitely necessary, because it... well, it very often has some kind of therapeutic effect, the same stand-ups , watch or read from time to time something , but this is also normal, that ukrainians joke , because you just have to somehow maintain a healthy sense of humor, and if you look at everything that happens strictly with a serious face, then you can actually go crazy, so humor is necessary, but the point is that here on

my... side belief, and this applies not only to humor, in the principle of cultural activity, especially when it goes to the general public, the main principle should be to do no harm, that is, we must understand that there is, that we live in a community, well, to a very, very sick community, yes , which is at war, where, where there are an awful lot of these red lines, and that's normal, yes, i mean... we're fighting a war for survival, and thousands and thousands of people are traumatized very in different ways, this should be the main principle when you are, relatively speaking, a comedian, who prepares some number, some product, you have to go around it from all sides and think whether it will not hit someone too hard, yes, and this is exactly how it should be evaluated, so

in... actually, i have a personal problem with these with these humorous shows that we are talking about, there is a complete lack of understanding of any ethics and understanding of the context in which you create this humor. have you read the comments on youtube under these sketches, where people do not understand, people say that what is this, it gives us the opportunity not to go with a kokukha, sorry, this... gives you a possibility, it absolutely does not humiliate us, and it's cool for us and that's all, and well, thousands of people write, support these actors , there is such a thing, there is such a thing, well, i have, you know, always, when they ask me about history or culture, what to do, i always have a disappointing, disappointing answer, only slow enlightenment, well, there are no revolutionary ways here, it's just necessary...