bbc news, we will have yaroslav zheliznyak, maria ionova, elizaveta esko. do not switch, be with us. mobilization in ukraine, when and how, we tell you everything you need to know. this is bbc ukraine. olga palomaryuk is in the studio. the verkhovna rada passed a draft law on new mobilization rules. now the government. should change the most scandalous norms and bring the document to the parliament again, when this can happen, how will the rules of mobilization change and how will the postponement of such decisions affect the situation at the front? wrap and finalize. scandalous bill about mobilization after two weeks of discussions and disputes, decided... not to put it to

a vote in the verkhovna rada, because there are still many controversial issues. the parliament concluded that the document contradicts basic human rights. and we will talk about all these problematic issues a little later, but for now, for the completeness of the picture, everything was in order. in december, during the final press conference , president zelenskyi said that the military command expects to mobilize about half a million new recruits. a week later. on december 25, the draft law on new rules mobilization was registered in the parliament, it immediately caused a lot of criticism, both from the opposition and from representatives of the authorities. therefore, four alternative projects were submitted to the parliament at once. then, on january 8 , the verkhovna rada's committee on anti-corruption policy recognized the government's bill on mobilization as containing corruption risks. well, it wasn't until the last one. it is clear whether

the parliament will be able to adopt it at least in the first reading, or whether it will be closed altogether, and already today, after a closed meeting and a meeting of the conciliation council of the parliament, they still decided to send the document back to the cabinet of ministers for revision. so, why this draft law turned out to be so controversial and what to expect next, we are talking about it with my colleague, the bbc correspondent galina korba. galyu, i congratulate you. explain what was wrong with the bill about these new mobilization rules, why it is so difficult to discuss. congratulations, ola. indeed, the topic of mobilization for the ukrainian authorities turned out to be an extremely irritating and difficult issue. from the beginning, there was an impression that the government somewhat afraid of this topic, as such an unpopular one, perhaps in society. there was an impression that various representatives of the authorities.

they shift responsibility a little bit to each other, i.e. the office of the president points to the military leadership, the military leadership points to the civilian government, and even the fact that the draft law was finally brought into the parliament by the representatives of the prime minister is so a little atypical, and the fact that in the last two weeks , a very heated discussion was expected, but the fact that it would be of such a level, that is, it was partly... it was a surprise, that is, until the last it was not clear whether they would vote on the draft law at least in the first reading, so that it could be finalized before the second reading, er, and to work out some kind of compromise project, but already today it became clear that the parliament decided to wrap it up completely, return it to the author, that is, to the government, and presumably this means that even at the stage of the first reading, the parliament is not ready to take responsibility. for such an irritating

move. colleague, please explain which provisions were the most controversial most likely the document will be changed? and , the draft law closed such three key points, i.e. the first is the simplification of mobilization in order to recruit recruits faster and easier, the second is the strengthening of sanctions against evaders, and the third is the possibility foreseen for the first time. for demobilization , for military personnel who have served for a long time, i.e. , for military personnel who have served continuously for more than 36 months during martial law, eh, and the problems of the discussion mostly related to the last two points, primarily sanctions, because both in power and in the opposition criticized certain provisions as unconstitutional, as violating human rights, for example, according to this...

draft law, the employees of the tsc could, at their discretion, enter petitioners in the so-called unified register of debtors, and that's enough. unpleasant sanctions, when, for example, a person cannot sell his property, his apartment, cannot drive a car, cannot issue a driver's license, that is, it is likely that these norms will change, and we will not see them in the next, in the next edition, and the second big block which caused discussions - this is demobilization, because on the one hand there is a big demand in society, everyone agrees that military personnel who have been fighting for a long time should have... the right to rest, but the military leadership is very cautious about this norm, it worries, whether it will be able to replace people not only quantitatively, but also qualitatively, because it is primarily about the demobilization of already trained and experienced soldiers, it is very difficult. yes,

gal, thank you, please stay in touch, and i would like to say that the president also spoke about mobilization today zelenskyi, during the meeting with the prime minister of estonia, kalas did not talk about the number of recruits, but about those men who went abroad. he called to return and not only to defend ukraine at the front, but also to pay taxes. for one soldier there are six to eight taxpayers. and if you are in ukraine, and you are not at the front, but you work, wherever you work, we treat each person with respect. and if you work and pay taxes, then you also defend the state, and this is very necessary, but if you are abroad and you of conscription mobilization age, and you are not at the front, and you do not pay taxes, and you left

illegally, then there is a question, so let's go back to our conversation, galina korba, bbc correspondent, galya. we just heard from volodymyr zelensky that we need people at the front and we need people in the rear, who could economically provide for the army, there will be no money, there will be no military, that's what the president said, but is there an understanding of how the authorities can find this balance ? this is a very difficult issue, these are two such key challenges that ukraine is definitely dealing with will face this year, because the war with russia is clear. drags on, and it increasingly resembles such a war of resources, a war of economies, a war of attrition, therefore, on the one hand, ukraine needs more human resources, more, more effective mobilization, and on the other hand , it is necessary to fill the budget, and this is already

very difficult, therefore that the economic situation in ukraine is very difficult, and for understanding , absolutely everything that ukraine earns itself now, it spends on the military, that is, all other items of expenditure. social issues, education, etc. , western partners are helping to close it, and we already see that this year all decisions related to some additional financial tranches are being delayed, which will be difficult to imagine next year, that is, the authorities need a plan b, that is why we see such initiatives , which have not yet been formalized as bills or laws, but i will discuss such initiatives. for example, to exempt from mobilization men who receive high white wages and pay high taxes, respectively, so far this again has not become bills some, but there are such initiatives, this means that the government is desperately trying to find this

balance, whether it will succeed in finding it, we will see, yes, alternative, alternative draft laws, and so on with regard to men who went abroad, or - how in general in the government they are planning to return them from abroad, but what is known about this? as of now, if it were clear that there are no concrete mechanisms yet, we hear statements, and they are quite sharp, loud, both from the military command and from president zelensky, that is, the statement that we just heard, she was not the first, calls to return not only to serve, but also to work, to ukraine in the rear, any larger initiatives will depend in one way or another on the goodwill of western partners, the authorities of countries where where these ukrainians are now, because , of course, ukraine does not have any levers

of influence there, so as to forcefully return, for example, ukrainians home, but, for example, in the same draft law that we, which we just talked about, which was submitted to the government . was the norm that all ukrainians, including those abroad, must register for the military, and if they do not do so, sanctions were foreseen. that is, for example, they would not be able to issue such a document as a foreign passport abroad. we do not know whether these norms will remain, but there are such initiatives, that is, somehow to detain ukrainians abroad, try to return them and even introduce sanctions. yes, we will monitor the situation, so the task of the ukrainian authorities is to make mobilization more effective in the conditions when the war with russia is dragging on, and ukraine needs more resources. regarding this, i suggest you listen to part of the conversation of my colleagues with the officer of the azov brigade, konstantin kozhekin.

i don't think that the war, the end of the war, is the liberation of our territories, because even if we liberate all the territories, reach the borders of 91, the war may not end, because russia may continue to fire missiles, the fighting will continue actions only. only they will continue on the border of ukraine, regarding the fact that almost everyone will have to fight, i am sure that will be, because there is no other choice, and no one from the outside will add human resources to us, and this war can continue for years or decades, and if we just sit somewhere, then we will lose the country, part of ukrainian men... shied away from mobilization, went

abroad illegally, how do you perceive it, if a person decided that way, well, you can't do anything about it, that is, they left, they left, but i don't want them to claim some preferences and some compensations and so on when they return, that is, if the person did not take any participation in this, if people... left the country, well, i mean men now, then maybe he should not have the right to vote or something, that is, somehow be limited in making decisions that are important for this country, but i don't think , that there are really opportunities to somehow bring them from abroad, or to somehow influence it and so on, and personally... well, let's put it this way, i don't feel personal negativity towards them, sometimes it's a shame

when these people then brandish ukrainian flags on flags at some concerts in germany or somewhere else, and they shout about how they are helping ukraine, well, this is a slightly different case. yes, so my fellow bbc correspondent halyna korba is with us. on galyu's communication , is there an understanding, well, at least an approximate one, when the draft law can finally be adopted, rustem umeru, the minister of defense, reported today that a new version of the documents has already been prepared, it was really a statement in the last hours of the minister of defense , who made it clear that all the amendments have already been put into work, and he made it clear that the draft law will be ready in the near future, but you have to understand... that even if the ministry of defense works like lightning and, for example, introduces an updated version next week, and

the verkhovna rada will be able to consider it only in february, because it will now have a break in its work, eh , and this means that the first reading will take place no earlier than february, well, then there will be preparations for the second reading, and considering that the issue is very sensitive, most likely there will also be a very stormy discussion and many amendments, and ukraine in this sense needs to... to speed up because there is another challenge, y russia is scheduled to hold presidential elections in march, and as experts predict, after them , president vladimir putin can more willingly and more widely carry out a new wave of mobilization, replenish the russian army, and ukraine must have time to respond, otherwise it may have bad consequences for the front bbc, well, that's all for today, look for more stories on our

website bbc.ua. see you tomorrow. greetings, friends, the verdict program is live on the espresso tv channel. we continue our broadcast in the second part of our program, see improvement of mobilization, all pros and cons. prospects for adoption of the revised draft law. corruption in the ministry of defense. the seized property of the family of the lviv businessman hrynkevich. how do they earn in the armed forces.

the economy of protracted war. what to do in the conditions. reduction of foreign aid. we work live on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those who are currently watching us on these platforms, please like this video, follow our pages on these platforms and participate in our vote. today we ask you about the following: do you trust the leadership of the verkhovna rada of ukraine? yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, if you have your own, separate opinion, you can... leave it in the comments under this video. if you're watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone and vote. if you trust the current leadership of the verkhovna rada 0800-211-381, no 0800-211-382. all calls to these numbers are free. please vote, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. i want to introduce the guests

today's program. this is yaroslav zheliznyak, a representative of the "voice" faction. congratulations. mr. yaroslav, good evening, elizaveta yasko from the servant of the people faction, mrs. elizaveta, i congratulate you, thank you for joining our broadcast. good evening. and maria ionova from the european solidarity faction should also join us. i hope it happens soon. so, mr. yaroslav and ms. elizavetto, today the verkhovna rada of ukraine was supposed to consider the draft law on mobilization, but it was not until the last one. what will actually happen with this draft law, as a result, the government withdrew this draft law rustem uyera , the minister of defense of ukraine already wrote on his facebook page that the ministry of defense, the government and the ministry of defense are preparing a new draft law, updated, taking into account the comments made at the meeting with

the people's deputies of ukraine, i understand that a meeting with the military leadership of the state was closed today. with the conciliation council of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, if this is so, please confirm or deny, mr. yaroslav, well, yes, if very briefly, if longer, then today from on the morning of the 9th, there were a number of meetings, i would definitely call them conciliation councils, banal, because the regulations are a little different, but they included representatives of the factions. some of them included representatives of committee heads, and representatives of various departments related to the field of defense security were also present in person, including the general staff and the ministry of defense and others, and then there were already discussions in

the speaker's office, some of the information was... closed with vulture classified, but one way or another the military briefed the people deputies about the situation concerning the front and, accordingly, the need for additional resources, including personnel, and after that the decision on mobilization that you announced was made, namely the government itself. but withdrew the draft law, that is, we, as people 's deputies , did not make any decisions either at the level of committees or at the level of the parliament, it was a decision of the government, which was at an extraordinary meeting of the government, and accordingly, now the draft law is number 10378, it is precisely the draft law on mobilization in status withdrawn, that is, they listened to the claims

or, let's say, comments on this draft law and decided to withdraw it, or what is the reason? well, i would certainly not say that it was entirely their independent decision, but it looked like the risk of submitting this bill to the first reading with the recommendations of the committee to finalize it to the second reading was so great that it would not gain votes and get, including a rather negative perception by society that the only way out was. or make a decision to fail, well, that is, yes, let the parliament do it accepted, or the government as the subject of the legislative initiative could withdraw, since the draft law was included in the order of the session. and the parliament, accordingly the government chose this option of withdrawal, which was announced to all people's deputies. thank you, mrs. elizaveta

, your faction, like others, also had comments on this bill, there are four more alternative bills that should be considered, well, in case, if this procedure started today, you formulated the ones for... which are most fundamental to your faction to of the draft law that is from the government, what is superfluous there or what needs to be changed in order for this draft law to be supported by your faction? the fact is that this draft law is mostly considered in the committee of the committee on national defense, and all hearings are of a closed nature for... members of this committee, and not all deputies have the opportunity to join this, only those who are part of this committee, on our

factions and members of our faction have completely different feelings about this draft law, various provisions, but an even bigger problem is in because we really don't fully understand what the norms will be in this, because there are so many questions that uh... and too high a risk to accept something that, as my colleague said, will be poorly received by society, it's not will just not be well received by society, it can just be a huge scary step if we make a mistake, so all the issues that relate to mobilization, which is very necessary, but which has to be very wise, very strategically, you have to get the right approach to ... the question of criteria , how we mobilize, whom we are mobilizing, how is the rotation happening, what is happening with people who have certain degrees of disability, regarding the conscription age,

all this should be discussed with the military, with the ministry of defense, with all departments that directly manage and shape this policy, our role is the role of deputies, actually here is historical. in the fact that we cannot make mistakes and we have to vote those norms, that bill that will be necessary for our national security, and will also protect our society as much as possible, but this means that we have to fight there will be many people, but it must be done wisely so that there really isn't that very bad possible perception of society that we all don't want, because we are at war now and we don't need... to have serious internal problems, so it's better return for revision, it is better to revise than

to cobble something that will be very painful, well, that is, i understand that you agree with the statement that the authorities did not communicate correctly with society and did not explain what kind of bill it is, but simply society. began to discuss this bill, part ukrainians began to buy tickets abroad and stand in queues to the western border, that is , if it was not possible to somehow make this draft law explained to ukrainians, well, there will be another project, and maybe there is a problem in this too, look, to be honest, of course communication could have been much better, but... today there are so many different problematic issues in this draft law and not only that, unfortunately, it is impossible to idealize and give simple answers, i also want to emphasize that

very much there is an information war against of ukraine from the russian side to split our society, so what you said that ukrainians are panicking, a lot of this information is coming from social networks, telegram channels that are spreading... panic among society, actually, as we can see , that the parliament, when it feels, including that there are very difficult decisions that must be made, they must be made wisely, we can postpone the decision of these issues to improve, finalize it, that's why we all, all people and we have a lot of each of them. flowing experiences, and we know which is real the situation at the front, so everything needs to be worked out here, and as for communication, unfortunately, unfortunately, it is as it is, ah... but we

could not perceive it in any other way except painfully, because it is probably one of the hotter topics currently for ukrainians, so it cannot be otherwise. thank you, we are joined by maria ionova, people's deputy of ukraine from european solidarity, mrs. maria, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. glory to ukraine, good evening. glory to heroes. mrs. maria, today the government withdrew the bill it was preparing to the consideration which was a'. submitted for christmas, that is, it was registered on christmas , there were waves of information about this draft law, about the norms of this draft law, but the government , in order not to actually pass it, not to risk the first reading, decided to withdraw this draft law, you know exactly what will be changed already in the new draft law, i.e. which norms were the most questions in... and

complaints about this government project. first, the issue of mobilization has been on our agenda for two years. and the issue of the mobilization bill, we already have it continued eight times. and in two years, it is possible to improve those mechanisms that, over time , in practice, the authorities would see that it is important to change them. you know, these incompetent two days, which, unfortunately... did not show any results, and now we hear about the failure of a communications company, maybe there is a panic, we already, to be honest, the information space is completely controlled by the authorities, and we we know this, the only marathon, dom, freedom and everything else, as well as anonymous telegram channels, which are also controlled by the bank, and do not carry any responsibility our faction of european solidarity immediately said that this draft law is absolutely, well, unprofessional

. form does not solve the problems of defense and does not solve the problems of mobilization. next, i would also consider the issue of mobilization, well, we and the committee were working on a draft law as well as on the register of military personnel. and unfortunately, we lost a month. it is possible to organize the work of the parliament in such a way that we really work through it. here is the second question, i think everyone has already said: why this one once the supreme commander-in-chief did not introduce this bill. why was he afraid to take responsibility and for some reason ascribes this, frankly, responsibility to the military, that is, some closed open meetings, i understand that the committee really worked there for three days, they also said that they are ready to work and indeed they returned this draft law for revision, but let's not forget, i don't know if mr. zheliznyak said about this that... there are

still alternative draft laws that the committee should consider and the verkhovna rada also has them to reject, that is, they have already been worked on, but unfortunately, they were not voted on in these two days, and this is such irresponsibility, and i would like such challenges to be high now, so that, after all, there was adult politics, and now for this breakdown, who will be responsible, why, let's say, within two days the issue was not resolved, and... to be honest, i would really like to see us gather in parliament as soon as possible, we rejected those alternative projects, which are now, and the supreme commander, has should submit a new project taking into account the proposals that the specialized committee worked out, because when you talk about specific norms, there is a whole matrix and a huge document that was really

considered step by step. and e improved or , let's say, discussed, but again, i want to say once again, let's not forget about the bill on registers, because there are a lot of negative norms that wanted to be included in the law on mobilization, unfortunately, there, and he does not decide, for example, when we talk with you about obd, there too, well, mr. yaroslav can me to correct it, there are also a lot of anti-constitutional norms, that is, all this must be considered in a complex way, and it is very important that the authorities take this... responsibility, and if the poles had an alternative solution, it is possible and should be a presidential bill, which was would be absolutely logical, because he had submitted it eight times before, and the question of the ministry of defense, again, is not a question of the military, worthy or unworthy, it is a question of our state, it is a question of our mobilization, a question of the future of our state in general, or we are...