starting from the fact that we will support ukraine as much as it is necessary, who needs it, it is not specified, to the fact that we will support ukraine as much as we can, and here too, in this question and in this answer there are a lot of question marks. actually, it seems to me that, unfortunately, there is no common world. the concept of what they should do with russia in the future, everyone is waiting for the presidential elections in the russian federation to take place, and after that, in some strange way , events will unfold that can actually be controlled, and this even happened once upon a time such a theory about controlled chaos, i.e. when at the time when the world will hold... about seven or seven dozen

elections, when different ideologies will compete in the world, when different democracies will compete in the world, it is important not to forget, in fact, where did everything start and how should it end, if the world were just, and in this case i want to mention there... the formula for peace that ukraine is advancing there, there is such a question, returning to the question of justice, here's how it is currently seen in the united states america, as it is seen in great britain, as it is seen in poland, as it is seen in the baltic countries, it seems to me that all different countries see it completely differently, that is, the strategy of these countries, it'. is absolutely not

a strategy there aimed at only one goal, to kill russia, to say goodbye to the putin regime, and as before there was such a theory that russia should be democratized, but there is no such desire, but i have a feeling as a person who has been there for the last few years she communicated very closely with, including the so-called russians liberals who promoted different theories there and promoted different scenarios of its possible development, but even they do not have this desire to reach some kind of coherent position, which russia should be, it should be divided into several states, it should be... be the country

that will be, that will actually be a democracy, although i am very skeptical about it, it will be a country that will just lower all the iron curtains, like it was during the cold war, and nobody will come into this country and nobody from she will not leave, all these concepts, it seems to me, are still in such a... uh, dimension, when even in the united states of america there is no exact answer, so there is no exact answer, how they see the victory of ukraine, and how they see that ukraine can win, and at the same time, that russia won't be defeated, but this formula looks very strange to me, well, this formula looks strange to me too, all the more so... this formula, which

was once again presented in davos by andriy yermak, the head of the office of the president of ukraine , because these negotiations are about the peace formula, about the implementation of the global peace summit in switzerland, they will come out long ago. today, zelensky met with the president and the president of the swiss confederation, she said that we are ready to host this global summit. mr. igor, wouldn't ukrainian be worth it? team to think not about, not about a peace formula exclusively for ukraine, but also for europe, because or for the world, because it turns out that in the current conditions, the front in ukraine is under threat, of course, but our neighboring countries are also under threat countries, members of the north atlantic alliance, they are already out loud they say that they are preparing for the fact that in 3-5 years there will be a need for defense'. from

the russian federation and the peace formula from ukraine could be a formula for victory over putin or a new security formula. security formulas for europe and for the world, how do you perceive the concept of a peace formula for ukraine and whether it should be transformed into a broader formula, so that more countries join, so that everyone understands that in the end, the security of the future depends on russia, on the fact that is happening in russia and how we overcome this racism and putinism. well look here in reality, at least in words... the representatives of the authorities say that this is the ukrainian formula for peace, on the basis of which it is possible and necessary, well, there is such a dream, to build a new arch architecture of global security. at least such statements sound. it is about the fact that we are talking not only about the end of the russian-ukrainian war, but we are also

talking about other things, which can then be relayed to a certain extent, well there to other countries and generally to the entire system of international relations, well at least in europe, though. according to logic, it should clearly be about global system, since such countries as, for example, the united states, the same china, which is not too happy to agree to any negotiations around this formula, well , they will influence this new global architecture in one way or another, and what is actually there our ukrainian peace formula is embedded, in fact, it is somewhat of a secret, we have a document that was made public a long time ago, there is a certain list of points that it presents. ukraine and around which there is a discussion, but, judging by the whole issue, which are raised at the meetings of these advisers on security issues and on political issues, so apparently they discuss a much wider range of problems that can be presented in one way or another in this ukrainian

peace formula, what exactly is discussed there, in what format, well for us, this is to some extent closed information, especially since, as you rightly pointed out, these issues are taken care of by the head. office of the president, which is a bit strange from a formal point of view, since at least he should be doing this the minister of foreign affairs, and of course the president at most, the president, by the way , for the first time in a very long period of time in switzerland paid so much attention to peace formulas, he voiced something there, irmak used to deal with this directly, so the situation here is actually very simple, if you can really collect this summit and at this summit to present some universal. the formula, the first step in the implementation of which will be the end of the war that russia is waging against ukraine, then it will be about some new key principles of security for europe or world security in general, well, it will definitely be a success, but if all of this is for, well, all of this will end exclusively on

the issues of the russian-ukrainian war, well, then it is probably not worth hoping for any serious implementation of this formula, because many countries can support it, but if it is just words without... specific mechanisms, and this joint position will not be harshly voiced to the same russian federation, well, it will be nothing more than a beautiful document that will not have any practical implementation. let's remember, we had a good initiative, the crimean platform, but it is, well, somehow in practical implementation, well, there are even the first, well, there are some ideas that were laid from the beginning, they were not brought to a logical conclusion, and by the way, it is not only there that it is connected with exclusively a large-scale war , it... began to slip from the very beginning, because, well, there are many good words, but the specific mechanisms left much to be desired, and here, unfortunately, we may face such a problem that a very good, beautiful document will be under which a huge number of countries will sign, but these the countries will not be ready to undertake certain

obligations regarding the implementation of this document, and here is the information that was, for example, yesterday, that all the previous conversations that were held in the group of these advisers at... this meeting, we actually ended without results , when it came to specific implementation mechanisms of what ukraine offers. well, i would like to somehow avoid this, but for now everything boils down to the fact that even if this global summit takes place, we will see a very beautiful, very beautiful document, but it will not have practical filling. andriy yermak, while in davos and discussing with his partners... the future peace formula from ukraine, said that the ukrainian state will never agree, and the current ukrainian leadership will never agree to freeze the conflict with russia. let's listen to what yarmak said. this president and

this team of his will never agree or accept any freezing of the conflict. this is unacceptable to ukrainian society. ukraine does not need frozen conflicts, ukraine needs a just peace, and ukraine wants it prevent any potential aggressions in the future, and uses this opportunity. mr. serhiy, mr. yarmak said that this president will not and this government will not agree to freezing the conflict and society will not agree, well, perhaps it should have started with society, after all, andriy yarmak, because no matter what the government thinks now and no matter what she does, society in any case dictates, including the actions of the authorities, if there is a people's war in ukraine from february 24, 22, because the entire nation is at war

with russia, well, the entire nation rose up against this one war, it will obviously depend on the people, what will be the result or the final or the semi-final of this great war, what do you think about what yarmak says, or does it mean that on the sidelines. whether in some negotiations , which are periodically written about by the western press, the ukrainian leadership is inclined to freeze this conflict to some korean option or some abkhaz option or some other option, well, for example, russian-japanese, when the war there is not officially over, that is, there is no peacetime, but there are certain problems and problems remain for decades. well, representatives of the ukrainian authorities say what they have to say. they

cannot say at the international level that ukraine will agree to surrender part of the territory to russia. but we must understand that all the world's frozen conflicts, whatever they are, they are frozen because nothing was legally signed. for example, you mentioned the same korean conflict, so here there is no difference between what the government thinks and what it thinks. has a majority society, but the fact that there will be unofficial talks in the west about a possible freezing of the conflict, i have no doubt, i have no doubt that they are being held now, because in the west they are thinking, well, for example, what is the position of the republicans who will take over biden, they say that we can help ukraine, but tell me what your plan is, how long it can last, because russia has four times more human resources. and she will mobilize them, putin does not feel sorry for his people, he can kill them there even a million, even a second, it makes no impression

on the russians. russia is increasing its military production, mobilization potential is less in ukraine, and people, ukrainians, ukraine, it's a pity, you can't waste them like in russia, because here, after all, there is a democracy, a different attitude to human life. in the same way, the military capabilities in the west may not be as desired now, and so... the question arises, how long should the war last, what should be the end of this war and when? and there is another opinion in the west? there are forces in the west who believe that ukraine should fight russia as long as it can, simply because in this way ukraine deters russia's aggressive intentions towards other european countries, and therefore it is better to maintain this conflict as long as possible, because it deters war in europe, and this is also a position, therefore, the positions... may be different, but we proceed, have, must proceed from our own interests, and this interest should be

that legally ukraine must always insist on the borders of 1991, but in fact, well, we can discuss , at least in the expert version, in the expert environment has different options for how it can end, for example, i do not rule out that it can end theoretically, again, with the german option, when in fact during the cold... war there were two germanys, the germans never recognized that that they were divided into two parts, but in the end they united and now germany is a full member of the european union and nato. why the german option, and because at one time nato took germany in parts, that is, first they took west germany, and then east germany. such options began to be discussed in the expert environment, but they were rejected by politicians. well , why not, why not actually discuss such options, because... we now need to preserve society, preserve people, and we must understand one thing that a protracted war is not in

the interests of ukraine. any imminent war can deplete ukraine so much that i am even afraid to predict what will happen there, if it will be, for example, three or five years, and such talks are already underway. therefore, we must think coldly, strategically, insist on preservation of the borders of 901, and to understand that our task is to preserve people and preserve values. so, if we gather... people, preserve an independent state and preserve our values, then it will be a minimum victory, and of course, if russia collapses, then it will be a maximum victory, so we must insist on these... positions and calmly to talk to our partners, whatever they offer, but at the same time standing on their positions. thank you, mr. sergey, gentlemen, let's take a short break and go to commercials, after a minute we will return to the studio. kratau contains

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new york of the 19th century is luxury, scandals and intrigues, gilded. century from hbo. watch all seasons of the exquisite drama in ukrainian with a subscription. turn on the aristocratic. there are discounts to detox forces 15% in pharmacies plantain pam and oskad. friends, this is the verdict program, my name is serhii rudenko, we are working live on the espresso channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are currently watching us live, we are conducting a survey there, we are asking you if you can it's quite simple for ukraine to win the war without western aid on youtube, isn't it, or write your

version under this broadcast, if you watch us on tv, pick up your smartphone. or phone and vote if do you think that ukraine can win the war without western aid, 0800 211 381, no 0800 211 382. all calls to these numbers are free, call, it is important for us to know your opinion. let me remind you that today we have political experts ihor reiterovych, viktor shlinchak and serhii taran on the air. and we are talking about the formula for peace, about the formula for the victory of ukraine and about... what is actually happening today and these days in davos, but about the formula for peace, gentlemen, we cannot refrain from talking about it, we cannot refrain from talking about the future mobilization, deputy minister of defense nataliya kalmykova of ukraine said today

that the new version of the bill on mobilization will be submitted to the verkhovna rada for consideration. in a few weeks, she says that the beginning of the implementation of the provisions of the draft law is expected within weeks or more than a month, well, it is meant after the adoption of this draft law. we saw this whole story and dissected this story in detail, what happened, how it happened. mr. viktor, i have a question for you, why the first bill on mobilization... which was so dispersed with from the very beginning, representatives of the authorities asked for comments, why was it withdrawn by the cabinet of ministers, and was it possible to make this draft law in a different way so that there would not be such a bitter aftertaste from what happened? sergey, if you allow, i

will reflect on the previous question, literally several. please, just too many of our western partners forget the year 1938, they forget the sudetenland, that is , the part of czechoslovakia that germany itself took under its wing, and everyone thought that at that time it would be such a ransom for hitler for that he would not go anywhere further with the war, and this treaty... was then signed by the prime minister of great britain, the head of the french government, the head of the italian government and hitler himself. and on that, on this munich conspiracy or the munich agreement, there were very high hopes that it would work, but i have a question when they talk about

some kind of freezing scenario, and i have a very simple question, who will guarantee that even in case of freezing of this or that situation, that putin will not resort to other'. scenarios, just we are very we say a lot of things that are wrong, well, if not without understanding that putin may have completely different thoughts and completely different scenarios in his head, in fact, he spoke about them back in 2007, speaking at the munich conference, when he said that everything , which was there until 1000... in 987 under the power, well, the conditional power of the soviet union, it must be controlled in one way or another by the current russia, therefore all

conversations with western partners should bring them back to historical parallels, and now briefly about bills, of course, the draft law is already... morally and i think it is temporarily out of date, it is clear that the law on mobilization should have been adopted in 22nd, it is clear that it should be completely different from what we saw in its first edition, accordingly, the authorities protested to the society, what will be the reaction , that is why there was a lot of confusion about who is responsible for the introduction of this draft law and who it would be nice to implicate under the signing of this draft law, on the other hand, it seems to me that as soon as

the draft law is adopted, everything will fall into place , because a lot of people still expect clear rules that will, on the one hand , regulate their stay in the ranks of the armed forces, on the other hand, there will be clear rules for those people who will be mobilized, so we also need to calm down, including our ukrainian a society that prefers clear rules to some things that happen without rules. thank you, mr. viktor, mr. igor, who, in your opinion, should reassure ukrainian society and say that everything is now? rules, and we will now live by the rules: the supreme commander, the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, or someone else? well

, let's look at the legal framework, everything is clearly written there, first of all , the supreme commander must do this, he must come out and say that he is responsible for the mobilization, he announces it, signs all relevant documents, well, for the final decisions, and he must say that our rules have changed, we have adopted a new law, this law is fair. because the issue of justice, well, it is the most urgent issue for the majority of citizens, then it is, well of course, from his side , the commander-in-chief of the armed forces can and probably should comment, but he basically talked about it, and he said that the key task for the military is, in principle, to get the necessary number of people who will allow to hold the front and carry out those the tasks facing the armed forces, but the mechanisms by which this will be done, well, this is a question in principle before the flight. and of course communication should be better, including from the verkhovna rada, some group of people deputies representing the government should not be afraid to communicate, take

responsibility and explain why they will vote for such a project, but whether such a group of communicators will be created, yes, who will do it, there are certain doubts here, i'm afraid , which will be dragged through to the end , then they will really quickly adopt this bill, well, as a matter of fact , there will be some comments from the ministry of defense, maybe some... people's elected officials , and there will be hope that society will already be tired of this topic, well, it will start like this or otherwise live by new rules. thank you, mr. igor. mr. serhiy, what is fair mobilization in the current conditions, and what, well, is the concept of justice, it is also such, rather conditional, when we talk about fair politics, about a fair society, including fair mobilization. you know, when they talk about the word fair in politics, i immediately want to smile, because the concept of fair is a subjective category, it cannot be a criterion for evaluating one or another draft law. the criterion can be clear

enforcement of the law. but if you ask about this law on mobilization, i will say that it seems to me that there is not enough, and that would significantly alleviate the situation, there is not enough incentive, there is not enough encouragement to go to the army. you know, at the beginning of the war, the great war between russia and ukraine, i remember when servicemen had sufficiently high salaries, there was such a short period, and then for many it was also an incentive to go not only to defend the homeland, but also to be sure that in the event of which their family will be protected, and they themselves receive up to... well compensated the fact that they risk their lives and health while protecting their homeland. currently, the payment of military personnel, their financial support in case of disability there , to put it mildly, is not high, but it should be high, of course, one can say, and where to get the money, but we need to talk about this with our international partners, because our local armed forces protect not only ukraine, they also protect europe, and i think that with the right professional conversation with our

western partners. it might still be possible to achieve what our army could to get enough finance for incentives so that our servicemen have high salaries and social guarantees, but if this bill on mobilization was supplemented with these incentives, which were just so bright, which clearly showed that joining the ukrainian armed forces, well, of course, it is risky and honorable, but in addition , it is also in principle... profitable and protects servicemen and their families, so it seems to me that then the tension would be less, therefore, in addition to repressions, in addition to unpopular measures, which, of course, during war from them you won't get anywhere, more encouraging measures are needed, and it seems to me that they are missing in the bill on mobilization, and i would very much like the deputies to think about this when they work on the finalization. thank you, mr. serhiy, thank you serhiy taran,

ihor reiterovych and viktor. shlinchak for being guests of our program today, we have to finish the program, during our broadcast, gentlemen, we conducted a survey and asked our tv viewers about this and the viewers, whether ukraine can win in war without western aid? 8% of those who watched us on tv said: yes, 92%, no, on our broadcast on... on youtube there is also a vote and we are already finishing the vote also now, yes 16%, 84% no, these are the results polls, friends, were conducted today during our program, i have to put a full stop in the verdict, the program was conducted by serhiy rudenko, i wish everyone good health, take care of yourself and your relatives, we will meet at 8:00 p.m. the next

day. goodbye. there are 10% discounts on lyzak in psylsnyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. vinyl agency represents 22 january at 19:30 on the stage of the lviv opera taras chubai. and songs that all of ukraine sings along to. the special guest of the concert is the lviv men's academic choir chapel dudaryk. karabaskom tickets, live sound. there are discounts on fkalor, 20% in podorozhnyk, pam and oschad pharmacies. i congratulate you.