elk and how it should end, if the world were just, and in this case, i want to mention this peace formula that ukraine is promoting there, there is such a question, returning to the question of justice, this is how it is now seen combined the states of america , as it is seen in great britain, as it is seen in... poland, as it is seen in the baltic countries, it seems to me that all different countries see it completely differently, that is , the strategy of these countries, it is absolutely not a strategy, there aimed at only one the goal: to kill russia, to say goodbye to putin's regime, and as before there was such a theory that russia... to democratize, but there is no such

desire, but i have a feeling, as a person who has communicated very closely with including with the so-called russian liberals, who there promoted various theories and promoted various scenarios of possible development, but even they do not have this desire. there to reach some coherent position, which russia should be, it should be dismembered into several states, it should be the country it will be, in which there really will be a democracy, although i'm very skeptical about it, it will be a country that just lowers all the iron curtains like it was...

during the cold war, and no one will come into this country and no one will leave it, everyone these concepts , it seems to me, are still in such a dimension that even in the united states of america there is no exact answer, so there is no exact answer as to how they see the victory of ukraine, and how they see that ukraine can win, and at the same time that russia does not , uh... will get defeated, to me, this formula looks very strange, well, it looks strange to me too, especially against the background of this formula , which was once again presented in davos by andriy yermak, the head of the office of the president of ukraine, because these negotiations are about the peace formula, about holding of the global peace summit in switzerland, they have been going on for a long time. today , zelensky met with... the president and

the president of the swiss confederation, she said that we are ready to host this global summit. mr. igor, shouldn't the ukrainian team think about not about the peace formula, exclusively for ukraine , but also for europe, because or for the world, because it turns out that in the current conditions, the front in ukraine is under threat, of course, but our neighboring countries are also under threat, members of the north atlantic alliance, they are already talking loudly about the fact that they are preparing for the fact that in 3-5 years it will be necessary to defend against the russian federation, and the peace formula from ukraine could be a formula for victory over putin, or a security formula, a new security formula for europe and for the world, like you do you understand the concept of... a peace formula for

ukraine, and shouldn't it be transformed into a broader formula so that more countries join in, so that everyone understands that in the end the security of the future depends on russia, on what is happening in russia and on the , how we will overcome this racism and putinism. look, here in reality, at least in words , the representatives of the authorities say that this is the ukrainian peace formula, on the basis of which... it is possible and necessary, well, there is such a dream, to build a new arch architecture of global security, at least such statements sound, it is about the fact that we we are not only talking about the end of the russian-ukrainian war, but we are also talking about other things that will be able to be relayed to a certain extent, well there to other countries and in general to the entire system of international relations, well at least in europe, although by logic here we are talking of course , it must be about the global system, since countries such as the united states, the same china,

which is not too happy to agree to any negotiations around this formula, will influence this new global architecture in one way or another. what about us? in fact, there is something hidden in our ukrainian formula for peace. we have a document that was made public a long time ago, there is a certain list of points that ukraine represents and around which there is a discussion, but, judging by all the issues that are raised at the meetings of these advisers, on issues of security there and on political issues, yes but judging by everything, they discuss a much wider range of problems that can be presented in one way or another. in this ukrainian peace formula, what exactly is there it is being discussed in what format, well, for us this is to some extent closed information, especially since, as you rightly pointed out, the head of the president's office takes care of these issues, which is a little strange from a formal point of view, since at least the minister should deal with this of foreign

affairs, and of course the president at the most, the president , by the way, in switzerland for the first time in a very long period of time paid so much attention to peace formulas, something like that, but here the situation is actually very simple: if it is possible to really convene this summit and present some kind of a universal formula, the first step in the implementation of which will be the end of the war that russia is waging against ukraine, then it will be about some new key principles in general, such as security for europe or world security, well, it will definitely be a success, but if all this is, well, everything will end on the issues of the russian-ukrainian war, then it probably won't be worth hoping for some serious implementation of this formula, because many countries can support it, but if these are just words without concrete mechanisms, and this joint position will not be harshly voiced as for the russian federation, well, it will be nothing more

than a beautiful document that will not have any practical implementation. let's remember, we had a good initiative, the crimean platform, but it is somehow in practical reality. well, there are even those first ones, well, there are some ideas that were laid from the beginning, they were not brought to a logical conclusion, and by the way, it is not only there that it is connected with an exceptionally large-scale war, it started to slip from the very beginning, so that there are a lot of nice words, but they left much to be desired with concrete mechanisms to wish for the best, and here, unfortunately, we can face such a problem that there will be a very nice, beautiful document, under which a huge number of countries will sign, but these countries will not be ready to take on ... themselves certain obligations regarding the implementation of this document, and here is the information that was , for example, yesterday, that all the previous conversations that were held in the group of these advisers, led by yarmak, yes, he was the head, so this meeting, we ended in fact without results, when it came to specific

implementation mechanisms of what it offers ukraine, well, i would like to somehow avoid this, but for now everything seems to be that even if this global summit takes place, we will see very well. a very beautiful document, but it will not have practical content. andriy yermak, while in davos and discussing with his partners the future peace formula from ukraine, said that the ukrainian state will never agree, and the current ukrainian leadership will never agree to freeze the conflict with russia. let's listen to what yarmak said. this president and this team of his will never agree and will not will accept no conflict freeze. this is unacceptable to ukrainian society. ukraine does not need frozen conflicts. ukraine needs a just peace, and ukraine wants to prevent any potential aggression in

the future, and uses this opportunity. mr. serhiy, mr. yermak said that this president... no, this government will not agree to freeze the conflict and society will not agree, well, i guess andriy yermak should have started with society, because no matter what the government thinks now and whatever she does, but society in in any case, it also dictates the actions of the authorities, if there is a people's war in ukraine from february 24, 22, because the whole... people are at war with russia, well, if the whole people rose up against this war, then obviously the people will also depends on what will be the result or the final or semi-final of this great war, what do you think

about what yermak says, does it mean that on the sidelines or in some negotiations, which are periodically written about by the western press, the ukrainian... leadership is inclined to freezing this conflict, to some korean version or something of the abkhaz variant or even before some variant, well, for example, russian. japanese, when the war there is not officially over, that is, there is no peace agreement, but there are certain problems, and problems remain for decades, well, representatives of the ukrainian authorities say what they have to say, they cannot say at the international level that ukraine will agree to , to give part of the territory to russia, but we have to understand that all the conflicts in the world are frozen, that's all that they are, they are... the fact that nothing was legally signed, for example, you mentioned the same korean

conflict, so there is still no peace agreement between north and south korea, no one recognized anyone, although de facto the conflict turned out to be frozen, and any agreements there in korea were signed by the military, and they were not about peace, not about territory, they were just about a ceasefire, and as we see, they do not always help, even now we see an escalation there, so frozen conflicts in the world are unfortunately a reality. and if anyone in the world looks at ukraine through a prism frozen conflicts, it is simply necessary to understand that in the west they look at their experience, at the historical experience they had in their countries and try to think from time to time what will happen in ukraine if the same experience is applied to ukraine. of course, i do not believe that public opinion now, and never public opinion, recognizes ukraine's territorial losses. we will always be legal. to give up to complete victory, that both crimea is ukrainian and donbas is ukrainian, there should be no

doubt here, and here there is no difference between what the government thinks and what the majority of society thinks, but the fact that unofficial talks will be held in the west about a possible freezing of the conflict, i have no doubt, i have no doubt that they are being held now, because in the west they think like, well, for example , what is the position of the republicans who... offer to biden, they say that we can help ukraine, but tell us what your plan is, how long it can take, russia has four times more human resources, and it will putin does not want to mobilize them, no it's a pity for his people, he can kill them there, even a million, even a second, it has no impression on the russians, russia is increasing its military production, there is less mobilization potential in ukraine, and people, ukrainians, ukraine, it's a pity, you can't have them like that. ..chats like in russia, because here, after all , there is a democracy, a different attitude to human life, as well as military capabilities in

the west, maybe now they are not as we would like, and the question arises, how long the war should last, what should be the end of this war and when, and there is another opinion in the west, in the west, there are forces that believe that ukraine should fight russia as long as it can, simply because in this way ukraine is deterred. sive intentions of russia towards other countries in europe, and therefore it is better to maintain this conflict as long as possible, because it deters war in europe, and this is also a position, so the positions may be different, but we proceed, have, must proceed from our own interests, and this interest should be in the fact that legally ukraine should always insist on the borders of 1991 , but in fact, well, we can discuss at least in the expert version , in the expert version there are still different options for how it could end, for example, i do not rule out that it

could end theoretically, again, in the german version, when in fact, during the cold war, there were two germanys, the germans never did not recognize that they were divided into two parts, but in the end they united and now germany is a full member of the european union and nato. why the german option, and because at one time nato took germany in parts, that is, they took it first. western germany, and then eastern germany, such options began to be discussed among experts , but they were rejected by politicians, but why not, why not actually discuss such options, because we now need to save society, save people, and we must understand one thing that a protracted war is not in interests of ukraine, any protracted war can exhaust ukraine to such an extent that i am even afraid to predict what will happen there, if it will be, for example, three or five years, and this is already a conversation... that is why we have to think coldly, strategically, insist on preserving the borders of 1991 and understanding that

our task is to preserve people and preserve values, but if we preserve people, preserve an independent state and preserve our values, then this will be a minimum victory, and of course, if russia collapses, then this will be a maximum victory, so we must insist on these positions and calmly talk to our partners so that they do not offer, but at the same time... still on our positions, thank you, mr. sergey, gentlemen, let's take a short break and go to commercials, we'll be back in a minute to the studio nothing yet it worked, not yet, constipation, oh, normalolact , dear, take normolact, normolact eliminates constipation , normalizes the work of the intestines, restores the amount of lactobacilli and bifidobacteria, everything worked out, normolact and everything will work out, there are discounts on anticataral 20% in pharmacies plantain, pam and

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of airtime. two hours of your time. two hours to learn about the war and how the world lives. two hours to keep up with economic and sports news. two hours in the company of favorite presenters, presenters who have become like family to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio. events of the day in two hours. vasyl zima's big broadcast. a project for smart and caring people. espresso in the evening. verdict with serhii rudenko from now on in a new two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests: foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion at any time of the day with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and

be included, the verdict with serhiy rudenko, every day on weekdays from 20 to 22 for espresso. the 93rd separate mechanized brigade of kholotny yar is in dire need of fivi drones to effectively hit the enemy and increase the losses of living and non-living forces of the occupier, to bring closer the victory that all of ukraine is waiting for. glory to ukraine, hero! kudos, friends, this is a program verdict, my name is serhii rudenko, we are working live on the espresso channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are currently watching us live there, we are conducting a survey, we are asking you about whether ukraine can win the war without

western help, everything is quite simple on youtube, yes, no, or write your version. during this broadcast, if you watch us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote if you think that ukraine can win the war without the west assistance, 0800 211 381, no, 0800-211382. all calls to these numbers are free, call, it is important for us to know your opinion. let me remind you that today we have political experts ihor reiterovych, viktor shlenchak and serhiy taran on the air. and we are talking about the formula for peace, about the formula for the victory of ukraine and about what is actually happening today and in these days in davos, but about the formula for peace, gentlemen, we cannot not speak, we cannot not speak without the question of the future mobilization, deputy

minister of defense of ukraine natalia kalmykova today she said that the new edition. the bill on mobilization will be submitted to the verkhovna rada for consideration in a few weeks. she says that the beginning of the implementation of the provisions of the draft law is expected within weeks or more than a month, well, it is meant after the adoption of this draft law. we saw this whole story and dissected this story in detail, what happened, how it happened. mr. victor. a question for you, that is why the first bill on mobilization, which was so dispersed from the very beginning for commenting representatives of the authorities, why everything? after all, it was withdrawn by the cabinet of ministers, and was it possible to draft this bill in a different way so that there would not be such a bitter aftertaste

from what happened. serhii, if you allow me, i will reflect on the previous question, just a few sentences, it's just that many of our western partners forget . in 938, they killed the sudetenland, that is , a part of czechoslovakia, which germany actually took under its wing, and everyone thought that at that moment it would be such a ransom for hitler that he did not go anywhere further with the war, and this treaty was then signed by the prime minister of great britain, the head of the french government. the head of the italian government and hitler himself, and on this munich conspiracy or munich agreement, there were very high hopes that it

would work. so i have a question when they talk about some kind of freeze scenario, and i have a very simple question: who will guarantee that even in the event of a freeze of this or that... situation, that putin will not resort to other scenarios, simply we are very we talk a lot about some things, no , well, if not without understanding that putin may have completely different thoughts and completely different scenarios in his head, in fact, he spoke about them back in 2007, speaking at the munich conference, when he... told that everything that was there before 1987 under the power, well, the conditional power, yes, of the soviet

union, it should be controlled one way or another by the current russia, therefore all conversations with western partners should bring them back to historical parallels, and now , now what... . briefly about draft laws, of course, the draft law is already morally and , i think, temporarily outdated, it is clear that the law on mobilization should have been adopted in 22, it is clear that it should be completely different from what we saw in its first edition, accordingly, the authorities protested to society , which will be'. because of the action, there was a lot of confusion about who is responsible for the introduction of this draft law and who it would be nice to implicate under

the signing of this draft law, on the other hand, it seems to me that as soon as the draft law is adopted, everything will fall into place, because a lot of people still expect clear rules that will, on the one hand , regulate... being in the ranks of the armed forces, on the other hand, there will be clear rules for those people who will be mobilized, so it is also necessary to calm down, including our ukrainian society, that clear rules are better than some things that happen without rules. thank you, mr. viktor, mr. igor, who... should, in your opinion , calm down ukrainian society and say that everything, now there are rules, and we will now live by the rules, supreme commander-in-chief, commander-in-chief

of the armed forces, or someone else? well, let's look at the regulatory legal framework , everything is clearly written there, first of all it must be done by the supreme commander, he must come out and say that he is responsible for the mobilization, he announces it, signs all the relevant documents, well, for the final decisions, and he must to say that... we have changed the rules, we adopted a new law, this law is fair, because the issue of justice, well, it is the most urgent issue for the majority of citizens, then it is of course, from his side , the commander-in-chief of the armed forces can and probably should comment, but he basically talked about it, and he said that the key task for the military is, in principle, to get the necessary number of people who will allow to hold the front and carry out those the tasks facing the... forces, but the mechanisms by means of which this will happen, well, this is a matter for politicians in principle, and of course, communication should be better, including from the verkhovna rada, some group of people's

deputies who represent... the government should not be afraid to communicate, take responsibility and explain why they will vote for such a project, but whether such a group of communicators will be created, and who will do it, there are certain doubts here, i am afraid that they will drag it out to the end , then they will really pass this bill quickly, and after the fact some comments will go there from the ministry of defense, maybe some people's elected officials, and there will be hope that society will already be tired of this topic, and it will start like this to live otherwise according to the new rules. thank you, mr. igor. mr. sergey, what is fair mobilization in the current conditions, and the concept of justice, it is also quite conditional when we talk about fair politics, about a fair society, including fair mobilization. you know, when the word fair is spoken in politics, i immediately want to smile, because the concept of justice is a subjective category, it

cannot be an objective criterion. of this or that draft law, the criterion can be clear enforcement of the law, but if you're asking about this mobilization law, i would say that i think there's not enough, and that would have greatly mitigated the situation, there's not enough incentives, there's not enough incentives to go into the army, you know, at the beginning of the war , the great war between russia and ukraine, i remember when military personnel had sufficiently high salaries, there was such a short period, and then for many it was also an incentive to go not only to defend. homeland and be sure that in case of which their family will be protected, and they themselves receive a decent compensation for what that they risk their lives and health , protecting the homeland, now the payment of military personnel, their financial support in case of disability there, well, to put it mildly , it is not high, but it should be high, of course you can say, but where to get the money, but we need to talk about this with our international partners, because our armed forces

protect not only ukraine, they protect... and europe, and i think that with a proper professional conversation with our western partners, it might be possible to achieve that our the army would be able to get enough funds for incentives to ensure that our servicemen have high salaries and social guarantees, what if this bill on mobilization was supplemented with these incentives, which were simply so bright, which would clearly show that they should go to the ukrainian armories. forces, well, of course it is risky and honorable, but in addition, it is also beneficial in principle and protects servicemen and their families, so it seems to me that then the tension would be less, so in addition to repressions, in addition to unpopular measures, which are definitely during the war , from them you won't get anywhere, more encouraging measures are needed, and it seems to me that they are missing in the draft law on mobilization, and i would very much like the deputies to think about

this when they work on the finalization. thank you, mr. serhiy, thank you serhiy taran, ihor reiterovych and viktor shlinchak for being guests of our program today, we have to finish the program, during our broadcast, gentlemen, we conducted a survey and asked our tv viewers about such viewers, whether ukraine can win in war without western aid? 8% of those who watched us on tv said yes, 90% 2%, no, we also have voting on our youtube broadcast and we are already finishing the voting also now, yes 16%, 84%, no, here are the poll results, friends, were at our program today, i have to put a full stop in the verdict, the program was conducted by serhii rudenko, i wish you all good health, take care of yourself and

your relatives... see you at 20:00 the next day, goodbye. it's 2 p.m. in ukraine and we have a news release on the espresso tv channel for your attention. in iryna's studio blacksmith. greetings to all viewers. and just now about the most important events at this time. let's start with the situation in the kherson region. two people were injured due to enemy shelling. a 42-year-old woman and a 38-year-old man who were walking down the street were hit by a russian attack. the occupiers also set fire to residential buildings in bilozerka.