if you are on youtube, everything is quite simple, yes, no , or your answer, please write in the comments under this video, if you watch us on tv, pick up your phone and vote, if you trust anonymous telegram channels 0800 211 381, no 0800 211 382, ​​all calls to these numbers are free, call, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. we have a guest today... volodymyr tsybulko, political analyst, writer, people's deputy of ukraine of the fourth convocation, mr. volodymyr, i am you congratulations, thank you for being with us today, congratulations, glory to ukraine, glory to the heroes, oleg sagakian , political scientist, head of the united coordination center platform, mr. oleg, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today, my congratulations too, oleksii koshel, political scientist, head of the committee of voters of ukraine, mr. oleksiy, i congratulate you and i am glad to see you on our air, yes. good evening, so

gentlemen, let's start with a blitz poll, well, a kind of rhetorical question to political experts about anonymous telegram channels, well , since we are asking our tv viewers whether do they trust anonymous telegram channels, i will ask you also as readers, as consumers of information, do you trust anonymous telegram channels, mr. volodymyr, i absolutely do not trust them, branded publications are important to me. with good credit history. thank you, mr. oleg. i don't know, but do you trust anonymous producers of dairy products, or household appliances, or even sneakers? personally, i don't, it's the same with telegram channels, products under which they are not ready to put a name, they are worthless. accordingly, no one is reputable risks, i do not trust such products. thank you, mr. oleksiy. this is not even about

the problem of anonymous channels, but the problem of the fact that the russian fsb is making itself at home in our information space. i personally see that a number of telegram channels of millionaires , millionaires who have a ukrainian audience, they work there like a copycat with news and other propaganda resources, and the situation in our country has reached such a point that last year we discussed the issue throughout the country for a week putin's death. and was even connected to this discussion secretary of the national security council, this means that we have a disaster in this regard, and therefore it is necessary to make sufficiently tough decisions, because it is a matter of national security, it is very serious. well, if telegram channels, anonymous telegram channels, sometimes appear at the press conference of the head of the ukrainian, ukrainian state, volodymyr zelenskyi, here the answer is simply obvious, not to the ...

users of this information of these anonymous telegram channels, but to those , who tolerates anonymous telegram channels, and i totally agree with you about trusting anonymous telegram channels are not possible, because there is verification, but there are verified telegram channels, it is better not to consume information in the telegram channel at all, but to get it from publications that are really branded and can be trusted, i absolutely agree with you about these telegram channels ? today, russian telegram channels began to spread the topic of the downing of the il-76 over belgorod region, immediately began to emphasize what happened in the sky in the country neighboring us, and it seemed that the way this information was spread and then picked up , in that including some ukrainian telegram channels, that it was a preparation for ee... that the ukrainians shot down the il-76 with

prisoners of war on board, who were trying to be delivered to belgorod, how would you assess the reaction of the ukrainian side, because that , what is russia doing now, it is trying to work on international platforms, quite quickly, they spread this information that the ukrainians shot down a plane with... their own prisoners of war, literally in an hour the meeting at the security council is to start, and lavrov is there is located, he already says that it is necessary to immediately consider this issue at the un security council. did we communicate correctly and is it even worth talking about the correctness of communication in the conditions of war, or is it a question of the military, intelligence, sbu, and it is these structures that must accurately and competently answer these questions. obviously. to which

we do not have answers now, to questions, answers to which we do not have now, mr. oleg, well, the situation is not trivial, first of all it should be noted that... uh, we are ready to be fully ready for such russian operations never impossible, but here we can assess the situation from several points at once: firstly, we understand that the enemy is cynical, and similar situations, similar to these, the russians have already created, and olenivka, mh-17, other efforts of ukraine to blame, that is, in principle, this the situation is typical and patterned, certain response algorithms, such situations should already have been worked out, unfortunately, we see that they are not enough. both in the authorities and in society, we see that a part of society , including the media, immediately chased hotly for information, started with a lack of information drag out russian interpretations, and this is inherent not only in our media space, but also, unfortunately, in the west, we can also

state that serious gaps, holes in their information resistance exist, and the russians know them very well, if we talk about the expert environment, let's start yes... then the best thing that the leaders of public opinion, experts, political scientists, everyone involved in media commentary could do is to remain silent, because as far as opinion, trying to analyze the situation without sufficient data, they few people are interested and can only harm this situation, and the experts should be silent loudly with many voices, who should speak, the specialized services should speak with one voice, and not stop there. as always, the weak link of ukrainian communication is officially the absence of the principle of a single voice. each of the services, the strength of its capabilities, intellectual, informational, political and other capabilities, began to comment on each svila, giving

the most abstract comments, without giving any substantive factual information. it wrong, in a good way there should be either a single voice or a single coordination of different departments that are responsible for their own. and the government, official structures should provide a constant flow of information. even if it is not known what exactly happened, at least some facts appear, they should immediately become part of the public discourse precisely from the official bodies. strengthening their trust. only from russia are some interpretations appearing and there are obscenities in them, in surnames, for example, in the trajectory of the plane's departure, where it is clear that the russians are lying. it it should be right away. materials for communication by official ukrainian structures, with infographics, with 3d modeling, with the overlay of this with previous russian information campaigns, the source of information, ukraine should have become the key in this situation, it was not possible to do this, so we actually see that

in the international arena they started uncertainty and in some places russian propaganda dominate, although in fairness it must be said that a number of western media, in particular those that cooperate with ukrainian journalists, where this information came out precisely from or from their reporters who are in ukraine, or from hired ukrainian journalists who wrote materials for them, there exactly one can see a balanced position without using russian propaganda, although it is clear that without a hook ukrainian, but where this was not the case, a number of western media dragged out russian interpretations, and this is a shame, we once again demonstrated that we were not ready for such a russian attack. mr. volodymyr, if you were to advise zelenskyi's team, what would you advise in this situation, or the military command, the military-political command of ukraine, what would you advise to do in this situation, that is, there is a territory not under the control of ukraine, we cannot gather evidence of what, in fact,

the russian federation is talking about , and it is clear that in this situation, the kremlin is lying as always, because we have a long history of russian... lies, only in the last 10 years you can remember, this and the sword 17 shot down over donetsk region, this buche and mariupol, they always lie, when they talk about something, they can lie about it too situation, how to respond to this lie, when it is certain that there is no verification of any kind that our servicemen were there. well, first of all, we need to turn to international law and to... the introduction of war: first, the fate of prisoners of war is borne by the party that holds them, if prisoners of war were brought to the front line, unarmed, under the bullets of ukrainian soldiers, then ukrainian fighters are not responsible

for this, if there really were, well, there were no prisoners of war on this board, then... first of all, the culprit of this story is the russian federation, secondly, the plane is a military transport, it is not a civilian plane. furthermore, the russian side knows for sure that in the operational zone of ukrainian air defense, ukrainian troops are being shot down, an analogue, by the way, well, the a50 plane is the same il-76 th, only there is such a space plate glued on top of it, but it is the same il-76th, if the russian side brings this board under the impact zone of ukrainian missiles. then the culprit is the russian side, what are the claims against ukraine, this is not a civilian board, but

the ukrainian media at some point got confused and began not to inform about the fact that air defense had shot down, and perhaps russian air defense had shot down the il-76 over the belgorod region, and instead started talking about prisoners of war, and here, by the way, the services behaved completely crookedly,... the person responsible for the exchange of prisoners of war, because the first thing they had to clarify was that they had to verify the lists, and when the exchange takes place, the ukrainian side would have lists of those persons whom the russian side was ready to exchange for their own, well to russians, such a of ukrainian services for a minute of exchange , that there was no list, this is a very strange story, very... strange, i have the impression that at some point, emotionally unstable employees

of the media pool, pro-government, banking, suddenly became convinced that it was necessary to protect , well, let's put it this way, the legality of the actions of the military, ukrainian, and not the emotional component, as well as shifting the emphasis in favor of the agreement with the russians to the prisoners of war. in fact, there could not have been prisoners of war there, because if you pay attention to one important factor: 605 ukrainian prisoners of war, six members crew and three attendants. you don't think that 65 troops could have captured zeil 76 in the air, considering that there were only three escorts, sewed a ukrainian flag there from... on board and wrapped it, forced the crew to fly to boryspil, no one thought about it, that is

this is such a mismatch, and this mismatch emerged already in the evening, when the russian side stupidly published only the list of crew members and that's all, well, there are very, very, very many questions, but how about we talk about how the russians are spinning this situation and trying to demonstrate... to the whole world that ukrainians are killing, killing their own, mr. serhiy, yes, this is our reinsurance, because literally the russian strike a few days ago on the donetsk market, the interpretation of this strike, it was a preparation for the next one, and now let's see how the russian propaganda paradigm is changing, they suddenly, starting with some deputies of the state duma, began to say in one voice that ukraine... is a terrorist country, ukraine did not seize a single meter of russian land, but suddenly it, well, all of them, so to speak speak,

sources are beginning to portray ukraine as a terrorist country, and it is understandable why, because russia cannot stop the flow of new weapons, then russia forms an image that can be sold to the unstable part of the electorate in western countries, that ukraine cannot be given weapons, this is for .. this is an operation, and the funniest thing is that some ukrainian influencers have fallen for this russian game, to be honest, what scares me in general is how many russians, so to speak, er, well, all kinds of good russians, so-called ukrainians tv channels, you need to come to your senses a little and start listening to ukrainians, and not blow your brains with all kinds of russians. so to speak, uh, refugees from putin's regime, they are of

no use to the ukrainian struggle. you mentioned what and how the russians interpret, in this story about donetsk, when they got to the bazaar, they killed 27 people there, and obviously the russians themselves covered this bazaar, at least they have evidence that the ukrainians did it. they did not provide, yes, there were min 120s fostovyks lying around the bazaar, yes, but these are ukrainian troops 40 km from the bazaar, they they cannot use mines, mortars. to finish, well, i mean, they tried to use this fact already in the un security council, they said there that a meeting should be called, let's listen to what lavrov said there. the reality is that, despite the complete failure of the armed forces of ukraine on the battlefield, the western patrons of the kyiv regime

continue to push it with maniacal insistence towards a senseless military. despite the fact that the kyiv regime survives thanks to western handouts, and even their spokesmen admit it. the majority of ukrainians begins to understand who their real enemy is, and who has been confusing them for many years, scaring russia, planting lies about our country and canceling our common history. mr. oleksiy, taking into account the fact that... lavrov still has access to the united nations organization, the russians are not expelled from there and are not discriminated against in any way, although they are the charter of the united nations organization, already there most of the articles have been violated by the russian federation, in your opinion, how convincing is what broadcasts, what

lavov rebroadcasts, and what russian media broadcasts mass information abroad about ukraine, because in the end-re'. they shape public opinion, which then affects the elections, who is elected, whether there will be aid to ukraine or not, and of course, now the russians are doing their best to ensure that the west is established in the opinion that ukrainians are terrorists , they don't need to be given weapons. look, today's story, i don't want to use the word tragedy, because i can clearly see the russian handwriting. there are two important things here, firstly, russia has not yet provided confirmation of information about the 65 dead the ukrainian military, that is, they had many statements that bodies were scattered over 2-3 km, many other things, many emotional statements, but there was no photo or video confirmation for a long enough time, well, this is

alarming to say the least , well, maybe they will edit it later, but these are other things, question number two , i have analyzed a lot... in detail how the propaganda machine works, but by and large we often overestimate the russians, they work quite irrationally and chaotically, their system fails, and the propaganda machine and informative today there was an impression that you know, the so-called homemade preparations, when everything was planned in advance and the statements were clearly made, and of course, against this background, our arguments look insufficient, especially against the background... of the failure regarding the reports of certain ukrainian media, and you you know what worries me, here is the phrase that the sources of our publication in power report about one, two, three, i apologize, which sources, what can we be talking about when it comes to the merging of information that has a military component, this

a crime, it can be considered exclusively as a crime, and it shows our vulnerability, that is , in the information sphere in our country... now, i apologize, we are in a complete mess, but we need to call things by their names, that is, in our country, all communes are commenting on issues of the military sphere line, i.e. the advisers of the president's office begin to comment on the details of possible agreements with russia, the demands on russia, the heads of military administrations, instead of commenting on the issue of bomb shelters in their region, they resort to philosophizing on the issues outside. the politics of everything, everyone else, that is , in our country, everyone who reaches the microphone becomes a big star in the information plane, and what should be done now? first, it is necessary to clearly define who in the country deals with propaganda issues, who is the main analytical center? in my opinion, now the key role should be played

by the national security and defense council, i.e. so far in the public sphere we do not see activity and... actually its key, exclusive role in the issue of strengthening our defense capability, i.e. yes, we see a lot informative statements, beautiful gestures, beautiful words , bright statements, but the real work , well, at least i don’t observe it, but the nsdc should be the main analytical center of the country, and the main center that would regulate such statements, similar interpretation, coordinate work with different branches of government, that is, this is their duty. question number two: we really have a problem with telegram. actually, i clearly saw several today. i apologize to the millionaires who worked according to russian models, they inflated the information that was raised by the russian the media saturated them, but

emphasized them, this is working against the enemy in terms of information, so tough decisions must be made in this matter, well, first of all, if we do not have the technical ability to ban anonymous telegram channels, then i am not ready to speak, as far as technically possible. that is, we have telegram channels of evaders, we have telegram channels where information about subpoenas is posted, telegram channels that leak video information about shelling to the enemy, if we cannot technically ban telegram channels, let's ban the network, the telegram network during the period of martial law, i apologize, nothing terrible will happen, in the same way, classmates hacked vkontakte earlier, and later russian television. stanza did not happen, the disaster did not happen , and plus , at the same time, the information marathon must be stopped, because the increase in the share of information from anonymous channels, well

, in general, now 80% of ukrainians, the main source of information is social networks, this is a disaster, and therefore, it is a response to the fact that trust in a single marathon, in a single button on television, is decreasing and increasing confidence in it. it is necessary to draw cardinal conclusions, mr. olezh, who, besides the national security council, of course, who would have in the information policy during wartime and martial law, who would have to play the first violin, because i, for example, do not really imagine that oleksiy danilov, the secretary of the nsdc , would be able to organize this work, well, i'm sorry, but... after we have been sitting for two years, disconnected without t2, three tv channels, no one can answer why this happened, and it

is impossible to restore justice, because someone turned off the circuit breaker, they said that we need to turn off espresso, the fifth channel and direct, although we include both the government and opposition representatives, everyone is included, and we do not have any, no reservations. about this, and what they say that espresso belongs to petro poroshenko is not true, well , that is, it is simply not true at all, er, who, who in your opinion, should take this in the country the role, i don't know, of the tertei judge, i don't know, the regulator, regulator and information flows, because in order to ban telegram, obviously a decision is needed the national security council, but someone has to prepare the decisions of the national security council. anyway, well, look, if we are talking about bans, after all, we are at war with russia, and we have all the disadvantages of playing for the good

guys, and russia enjoys all the advantages of playing for the bad guys, and this must also be taken into account, that not all methods are available to us, the ones used by the russians, in particular , any ban, and of course, as an exception, it can be an administrative decision, but then it must be absolutely legitimate within the society. and outward, that is, it must be prepared, clarified, explained, on to point fingers, and then, as an exception , such a step can be, under other circumstances , of course, there should be a judicial process, but the strange thing is that if you work out the argumentative base well, why something needs to be blocked, for example, or prohibited, then actually it is also material for the court, and then any court will make a decision in the same way in a court order to ban one or another, for example, a telegram channel. if we talk about anonymous media, then they are anonymous only conditionally, because there are always ip-addresses that can be calculated, there are always financial chains that it is also possible to track, there are always other

digital traces that remain, so it is only a question of the skill of their technical technological ability to do it, it is clear that the information space needs to be protected, and here the question is for specialized special services and the cyber police, which have the necessary tools for this to do this, the second issue is the actual countering of propaganda is substantive, it is not so much about the issue of counternarratives or counterpropaganda, it does not work, and in fact it is ineffective, you always need to rise to a level a little higher and proposing an agenda that will simply encompass the propaganda narratives of the enemy and use them in your game is always intellectual work, so this is a matter for either the special services or the creation of a system of state orders. cooperation with specialized analytical centers and commercial structures, that is, it must be an understanding of the state, there must be a priority of this issue, and that it is not solved simply by administrative methods or communication.

that this issue is solved much more systematically and deeper, and analytical, intellectual work is needed here. and the third point, this is actually strategic communications, not to be confused with pr, because being a strategist is not only about pr and marketing, it is a much broader and deeper issue, and accordingly, anyone can be this communication center, it can be the president's office, it can be the national security council, it can be the cabinet of ministers, it can be the outgoing commander's rate, it can be dynamic once a day or. per week, it does not matter how it is built, it is all already adjusted depending on which ones the goals are set, and in what context we exist, how dynamically the information changes, one day, like today , it would be necessary to immediately create a communication stake and every hour a speaker should come out and inform about the events surrounding this plane in parallel with this business position with pictures with everything including various representatives of various services, military, etc.

it was necessary to give as much information as possible, everyone should be tired of the flow of information from ukraine and leave no room for russian insinuations and their manipulations of information, they should be reflected even at the take-off, which is called, and some days, maybe even once a day it is worth giving some kind of digest, it can be any structure, but it should be a key, central one, which is endowed with the right to form strategic communications and primacy in provision. not outwardly, then a checkerboard is signed for specialized services, each responsible in his field can communicate within the limits and in the space of his responsibility, as independently as possible, decentralized, but exactly in his field responsibility, and then there would not be a situation when we currently have up to 10 speakers of various officialdoms from different departments who can communicate on military issues, five departments handle the diplomatic situation and communicate with people of different ranks and ranks, half of them who are not

responsible. are not even state civil servants, and so on each of the issues in our country you do not know who to turn to and from whom the final state position is actually given, this is wrong, and this only brings ambiguity and distrust to public communications at that time of ukraine, that is why there are three planes: the cyber plane, countering propaganda and communication strategies. thank you, mr. olezh, gentlemen, after a short break we will return to our conversation, do not switch. there are 20% discounts on citric in podorozhnyk fam and oskad pharmacies. there are discounts on eurofast 20% in the pharmacies psylansky, pam and oskad. watch this week's judicial control with tatyana shustrova in the program. the luxurious life

of an ex-deputy. chairman of the dnipro district court of kherson, what happened is an extremely positive moment. there are massive degreasing evaders in the court in odesa. we actually found that four judges made all these decisions. on thursday, january 25, at 5:45 p.m., watch the judicial control program with tatiana shustrova on the espresso tv channel. an unusual look at the news. good health, ladies and gentlemen, my name is mykola veresen. sharp presentation of facts and competent ... opinions, in america they also say, let 's have better roads, we will have even better ones, a special look at events in ukraine, there will be some katsaps on the border of kyiv, and beyond it , which the world dreams of, pa norman, we we can imagine it, all this in an informational marathon with mykola veresny, saturday 17:10, sunday 18:15 at espresso. greetings, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda. we have already

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