to the negotiating table, primarily russia , but they will also most likely offer us, and this topic always sounds, and even according to the results of a recent telephone conversation with president zelensky, this was publicly voiced, although in fact the peculiarity of the turkish side is that they do not offer any of their own solutions, they are only ready to provide support in order to create a certain atmosphere, to create logistical support and the so-called facilitation, that is, to create conditions for... for negotiations, they understand that this is frozen ice and to propose some solutions, knowing our rather strong position, the rather stubborn position of the aggressor country, so in this case it will be more about bilateral relations, i.e. energy is on the agenda first of all, these issues are related to gas and oil trade, and nuclear energy in the launch of the first nuclear power plant. in turkey, aka, er,

these issues are related to trade, with er those questions that western countries ask ankara about preventing the circumvention of sanctions, er, and such situations come up from time to time on the media column, and it causes quite a serious reaction here in turkey, besides, of course, it is a problem of the region, it is also the south caucasus, it is syria, first of all, because it causes the most. concerns in ankara, because both the attacks on the eastern regions of turkey and the destabilization are taking place mainly from the territory of northern northern syria, especially this applies to the region controlled by the local kurds, the so-called ypg or the syrian democratic forces, extremely annoying ankara, and there have already been several attempts to start another attack there on this stereo. the kurdish enclave in syria, and this is

one such stumbling block in possible communication with the assad regime, since already last year there were certain such public discussions about the need to restore contacts between ankara and damascus, but so far this direction has not taken place, that is, no visits took place, although with the mediation of russia, you know, there is also the astana process, and it is mainly at the level of either development or the minister. foreign affairs, such communication in is happening to some extent, but assad insists on the withdrawal of turkish troops from the territory of syria, in return, turkey insists on the creation of a 30-kilometer security zone and is not going to withdraw its troops until the problem of what they consider the threat of kurdish separatism from the territory of syria itself is resolved. well, here is the question that should have been the first, actually, les, what is happening today between ankara and kyiv, mr. vasyl? between ankara and kyiv, it is necessary...

an intensive dialogue continues, and in order for us had no illusions about contacts from ankara with other capitals that are annoying, these are iran and russia, so let's remember that representatives of the united states are also here quite often, linkin was recently, he was here literally a few days ago, the head of foreign - office in britain, was the prime minister. uh, from italy, and our dialogue is also developing, we are currently planning several important events, in the coming weeks some members of the government will visit us here, i will not rush ahead with the disclosure of it, which has not yet been made public information, but we have already formed the agenda for this year, in principle, we ended the last year on a positive note, both in terms of defense cooperation and trade and economic cooperation.

we are growing, of course, not everything goes into the public space, and first of all, this concerns the request from ankara not to reveal all directions in the public space, because in a certain way, as vankari believes, it narrows their foreign policy maneuver, but cooperation is going on, and those directions about which i have already spoken publicly, and those directions that will be announced the relevant leaders, who have which functions... there are certain areas of their responsibility, then this year, i believe, we will have serious changes that will benefit both the defense capability and the strengthening of the economic potential of the state. thank you, mr. vasyl, vasyl bodner, ambassador of ukraine to the republic of turkey, was in touch with us, we will be back in just a few minutes, stay with us. routines

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tobacconists, on sunday, january 28 at 9:30 a.m. at espresso. i will never forget that night, the first night in the camp, which turned my whole life into one long night, i will never forget those faces of the children, whose bodies before my eyes turned into rings of smoke against the silent sky. i will never forget it, even if i were condemned to live forever like god himself. we continue the saturday pole club program, le vakulyuk, vitaly. thank you, dear friends, for being with us, for being at espresso. we will now start the conversation with january 27, which is the international day of remembrance of the victims the holocaust, humanity experienced in the last century and such a terrible tragedy, and in the 21st

century somehow they did not draw conclusions from all that, mr. vitaly, is there anyone in your family who suffered? well, of course, my family suffered. this is just such a thing , you can't say that someone in the family suffered, you can say that someone in the family survived, it's a completely different story with the holocaust, that 's just how these questions look, because my parents, grandparents, sisters my paternal grandmother with babies. and with a man, it is possible to continue this martyrologist for quite a long time, and some died in the women's prison, others died in various places in ukraine, it was the famous terrible holocaust by bullets, you understand, because if

jews were sued there in poland, in lithuania, they were driven to constitutional camps, ghettos were created, then destroyed, then in ukraine, when the nazis came, they simply shot the population, they had no idea. here there are ghettos on most of the territory of our country, so this is right here in western ukraine, this is where there were, you know, ghettos that turned into camps, because they were different forms of destruction, different forms of territory management, but i think that it is necessary to look at it more globally, in principle, so that we understand what is happening now, because it is very strongly connected with the russian-ukrainian war as well, in the history of anti-semitism as such, there were two eras, the first era is related. with the time of faith, the era of faith in human history, when in principle a person's identity was determined by his faith, and the obvious deep chasm between christianity and judaism,

the somewhat complicated relationship, not so complicated between islam and judaism, led to to such mutual rejection to such tragedies as the expulsion of the jewish population from the iberian peninsula. but on the other hand , as you understand, people who became christians or muslims, as a rule , they avoided persecution, they became an er organic part of the societies in which they lived, also not without suspicions that this... they did only externally, but we know that a large part of the population of spain, portugal, it is not known how huge, has jewish ethnic roots, this is the part of people who decided not to leave, but to accept christianity, we can't even imagine their number in these times, but it was exactly such a situation, when jews lived their lives in their communities, they did not interfere in the lives of christians, christians did not try to interfere in their lives, these were... parallel worlds with very complex relations, but parallel, that is,

with extermination, pogroms, problems, but not total, total, some situations with extermination happened there episodically in the history of europe, let's say, like the pogroms of bohdan khmelnytskyi, let's say in ukraine, when almost all ukrainian jews were exterminated, this is such a beautiful example of such total extermination before the holocaust, that's why bohdan khmelnytskyi was the main negative person there before hitler. well, this is a separate story, i think we will have to deal with the legacy of bohdan khmelnytsky over time, not now, with the great french revolution. a completely different era began, when it was determined that the european population, at least, they have

equal rights, not religion, but citizenships have, uh, status, this is also not fast took place, famous stories are known there about german patriots of jewish origin who fought against the french invaders, being members of the senates of their cities, heads of regional authorities, such as the father of the great german poet heine. hein, and when the germans returned, they were expelled from all these institutions, because they were not jews, not christians, according to german laws, they could not sit there, the french occupiers gave them the opportunity to choose and fight with them, and the germans, their own the leaders they advocated and were returned, they were immediately returned to their place, behind the fence, but in the end it ended with a complete triumph of equality in europe, the last was russia, as usual. which kept the jews within the limits of settlement until 1917 and created a kind of ghetto there in our

territories of ukraine, poland, belarus, and lithuania. the russians have never allowed any jews to live on their territories, only merchants of the first guild there, and others with special permission, that is, that is what they are, well, what are the unclean people of the wrong faith, this is the same thing i remind the orthodox empire again, so when russians say that... one people, you can ask them such a question, if the people are one, why could you live among ukrainians and belarusians, jews, but not among great russians, what kind of one people is it, that one can communicate with unclean by faith, and others are not allowed, it was already absolutely clear, i would say the separation, that the russians, the great russians, they are like that, they are all really orthodox, and that’s it, you know, but wait, then the russians began to tell about how they cleansed the world of nazism. well, it is, it has already been the next yes, but i just want to say something else, after all, since we returned to the holocaust, by and large

, the real competition began, well, that is, people of jewish origin, not necessarily religious, very often secular, like christians, began to live one life with their neighbors, and as it turned out, if the period of existence within the framework of religious such inter-religious separation continued in europe for about 1,500 years and did not lead to the disappearance of jews in europe, then... the period of this existence within the framework of equal rights continued, it is considered from 1789 to 19403, yes, how many, well, about 250 years, 250 years, well, it turns out that the european nations , not only the germans, could not stand this competition and decided to simply physically get rid of those whom they considered competitors, well, such a continental solution , ugh, that was the holocaust, a horrible absolute thing, because basically. this is a conditional religious division that almost didn't exist anymore, because you understand that there the jews in

germany, why is it not a big shock, considered themselves germans to be part of political nation, the patriots of germany, the jews of france considered themselves patriots of france, the jews of poland for the most part, at least there in this, i would say the non-religious part of the population, which was already huge, were patriots of poland, all these people were symbols of their cultural and other achievements, of course like the great polish poet julian tuwim. is the great german poet heinrich heiney there, or are all these famous german writers, poets, musicians, and artists there , some imre kalman. is the prime minister there? edgar heriot of france, well, these were just people who were part of this, their lives, i'm not going to mention all these names and all that other stuff right now, because it looks strange again, it didn't matter to these people that they were jews, do you remember, when sarkozy became the president of france not so long ago, all the russian publications

said that he was half-jewish, half-ogre, and the french did not even mention it at all, you see, in principle, it is always in... everyone mentions here is the current defense minister of great britain, he is a jew, about where do we learn about this, not at all from the guardian newspaper, but from some russian telegram channel, it always bothers them, ugh, it stopped being interesting in europe a long time ago, because they think about the interests of political nations, you see that putin every time , when he mentions zelenskyi, well, he immediately mentions his jewish origin, something that ukrainians don't even remember at all, you need to know this specifically, here's this and this and this one, this... on to the question of victory over nazism, so in that sense it is important the moment when the european peoples moved away a little from the second world war, realized what had happened, well, in principle , the european jews themselves were almost gone, because you understand that here are these communities, which remained ten thousand people in each country, somewhere more, somewhere less, these are communities of a few million, which were before the second

world war, by and large, the jews were another european people, destroyed by their neighbors. just a large nation of a million people, it all disappeared, jews after the holocaust exist in a completely different form, i would say groups of communities, one of these is the israelis in the state, the other is american jews, european jews - it is more like a memorial complex, it is a people in cemeteries, well, if it can be called a people at all, it is a small group of communities in cemeteries, which completely, to things, these communities that are in... different countries, they are fully integrated into the life of their communities, and by and large, we are now observing the same thing with ukrainian jews, who would always be part of the russian and then the imperial soviet discourse , but precisely because ukraine is like an independent state of all civilizational things has existed for 30 years, the jews of ukraine are becoming ukrainian jews literally, in terms of

integration into society, in terms of language, in terms of compliance with understandings. for the way this country is developing, this is a small community, but it is ukrainian, and people who are close to these people, as a rule, do not remember much about their jewish origin, as i said before, how i do not remember it relatively speaking, the poles or hungarians or the french talk about people, but how many years have passed since the holocaust, somewhere in the 80s, 80s, yes, the quality of the second world war, and i try to talk about it all the time... to say that, look, the second world war is over, people were in full swing, huh, and even in the soviet union they said, it would be a lie there was no war, at some point all this is in the generation of people, they died, died, and people came who began to say that we can repeat, uh, this is a change of discourse, when the generation that remembers what

war is is disappearing, there are always those who say that war is a walk, a continuation of politics by other means. all the things they always say people who start a war, and it happened, and not only in russia, but i would say in the world, just the democratic world looks at values ​​differently, but wherever these values ​​are not there, they immediately decided that it is possible to defend it with war, now with the holocaust almost the same thing has happened, generations have come who do not feel the responsibility of their jewish parents for the holocaust, because you know, if there 40 years ago i go to an anti-israel demonstration even with ... whatever good intentions there are, i will remember , that maybe my father or i myself, but i was here in on this street, i was sitting in this apartment, and my neighbor was taken to the police station with a three-year-old child, whom i gave a piece of candy to yesterday, but what was i doing, i was doing nothing, i was living my life, i went to work, i said to my wife: "oh ,

you know, hesya was taken away from genia." and continued to drink tea with chocolate , it is unpleasant for me, i feel that even if it is not responsibility, then there is something in me, it seems that i did not participate in anything at all, if god forbid i took part, or my relatives took part, i don't have someone working somewhere in the administration the sss, the vichy regime, i’m already in such a state that it’s better i just don’t get close to it, but when i’m 25 years old, ugh and... moreover , i’m an american student or a french one, and i think that i’m unhappy the palestinian people feel the same way the jews did during...world war ii, except i might just be anti-semitic, well, the normal state of a lot of people is, you know, xenophobia, but i could never legally express that because i understand that

it is legal to speak out against anti-semitism it is the same as legally running around paris or new york and shouting i don't like sexual minorities, i will be looked at as an idiot, as a bolder from the middle ages, why do i need this, but to protect the palestinians, no one will say , that i am anti-semitic because i simply protect the poor pales'. baby from a racist state , there is nothing wrong with attacking jews, as any antisem will tell you, i have a jewish friend, i have a jewish friend, i'm here at the demonstration not because i don't like jews, just let israel stop the genocide, and that that kind of expression of antisemitism where a person by and large doesn't even try to understand the situation that happened, but finally has the opportunity to express his feelings without the fear of being, you know, called... an antisemite, a xenophobe, and so on and so forth, and this is also by and large the end of this

era, of responsibility for the past, and i will tell you honestly, but analyzing all that, i can now explain to you why it was always important for me to have a ukrainian state, if you understand , why exactly about i dreamed of a ukrainian state, but i looked at my classmates when i was a child. we lived in the same state in the soviet union, this soviet union was an anti-semitic state, i knew it very well, i had no doubts, but i had such an inner, inner feeling that beyond the borders of this idiotic state, there is, relatively speaking ship, i didn't even know what it really looked like, but to me it was like just some kind of world where there is a government, a state, ah... an army, special services, courts, and all this for to protect me, here i am in this country, which in principle discriminates against me, which

considers me to be largely a stranger, which treats me with contempt, i am like a small child in a strange family, well, practically , but my parents are there , they are there for me, you know, like a little child, she says , my father will come, she tells the adults there, some children there, how old they were orphans, what could they say, nothing, they could only think, dream about something, but nothing, your father was not there when you were insulted by these adults, bad boys, you couldn't say anything to them, you looked at them indifferently. we are eyes and so i looked at my classmates who were ukrainians. and who actually did not have their own state, whom we can make fun of there, if not in ukraine, then

in any republic abroad. even without realizing it, i constantly encounter situations when russians, even with liberal views, do not understand what ukrainophobia is, until now, that it existed. oh, you're a peasant, you speak this country language, they were coming to kyiv in front of me, trying to cross over. on russian, to fix something for themselves, they had nothing to fix, they were just ukrainians , and they had to destroy it in themselves, so that they would not be looked at as some idiots, i always thought that if we have this ship, and the ukrainians here they are standing on the deck, but their ship is captured by a group of pirates, they have to be driven out of here, and therefore to me, strangely enough, this whole story with the holocaust and you... with this injustice, and with this unjust attitude of our neighbors to us, was one big signpost, which the day of ukrainian independence, because

i saw this justice so strangely, when on august 24, 991 , the independence of ukraine was proclaimed, i breathed a sigh of relief for one reason, because i thought that there was something personally wrong with me that it was a dream for me, it's true, but i believed that nothing particularly changes in my life anyway. but i looked at all these people in the meeting hall of the verkhovna rada, they were 99% ukrainians, and i think that no one will humiliate them anymore, then they will always be able to now, wherever they are, here or in another country, they will be able, when someone is insulted and humiliated, to remember that there are, here they will come, my parents will come, and they will tell you that you should not insult me, i am not small, i have adults. and this is an absolutely incredible feeling, which, by and large, ukrainians were deprived of like air, you know, if there is no air

, you breathe, you know. than, and then you climb to some mountain peak, let it be a mountain peak, and you feel how clean the air is, and if you have never breathed it, and that is also a plus should largely explain what is happening in general, and by the way, i want to remind you that the ukrainians, like the jews, survived eras of destruction, they survived the holodomor, precisely because there was no state to protect them, here is this ukrainian peasant , he could not look at anyone. he will say: he will protect me, because the enemy army came, stood around his house and simply did not let him eat, this is the same example, very often ukrainians, when it comes to the holocaust and the holodomor, say that ukraine honors the victims of the holocaust, but from israel did not recognize the holodomor as genocide? israel did not recognize the holodomor as a genocide due to a specific attitude towards itself, towards the holocaust itself, uh, what was meant, always

under the israeli... approach, by the way, i always believed that the holodomor should be recognized as a genocide, the armenian genocide should be recognized people israel does not do this, because it means that when there was a famine, ukrainians as a nation, as an ethnic target, could survive in other places, except for the surrounded zones, so relatively speaking, you were starving in central ukraine, ugh, and my family i, what lived in this central ukraine. actually witnessed and barely survived in this central ukraine, although it was a jewish family, but if you lived in kyiv or in dnipro or in kharkiv, you, no one ran after you and shouted that you are ukrainian and did not take from you bread from under these conditions, on the contrary, conditionally in the same idea of ​​the famine, that ukrainian peasants took bread to feed formally ukrainian workers in the cities, because it was such a dictatorship, cynical, well, in fact, they

sold it abroad, but... as it was all explained, something similar happens with the armenian genocide, which is also strange, because armenians remained to live in turkey, they were exterminated in large numbers, almost all of them emigrated, but in turkey there are still, as you know, armenian communities, they are few, you try to find them, but they are , and there is such a stereotype that they don't exist in principle and that turkish people don't talk about it and don't mention it to me when i... first i was in turkey, i went to a store, i collected, when there were discs, i collected jewish folk music, i went to the store to buy music of turkish jews, and here i see that next to this disk of music of turkish jews there is music of turkish armenians, and for me it was to some extent the destruction of stereotypes, because i had no idea that armenians were in turkish, and only after i i became

interested in this when... i learned about the death of turkish journalist grant dink of armenian origin, i realized that this is a much more complicated process. if you were a jew, you basically had no chance of surviving the holocaust, and not just a jew. you remember that if ukrainians, why people? they give the title of the righteous of the world, if a ukrainian was hiding a jew and he was found, then this ukrainian and his family members were also shot. that's why i think these people, they 're just... saints, well, you, let 's put ourselves in their shoes, here you have to hide somebody, and you think that you're not only responsible for your own life, but for life of your little child, you would start doing this, you would think 300,00 times, right? yes, it is a difficult choice, it is a difficult choice, if you make such a choice, it is not at all clear what kind of human qualities you have, such maybe not available to us, but what i am talking about is that these are such cases, this is hunting.

and that is why the holocaust has an exclusive character, exclusively in this regard for israel, although i believe, my point of view, if i were a member of the knesset, i would believe that genocides are aimed at destroying the national consciousness itself, the physical existence of other peoples must also be recognized, and this, in principle, corresponds to the definition of genocide, which, as you know, was also created by a lawyer. of jewish origin, mr. lemkin, who is here i was born in lviv, right next to our studio, i, too, have been told a lot that all this happened here in these lands, one way or another, the holocaust, pogroms, and the legal definition of what the holocaust is, all in one node, so again i'm not going to say this is the right approach.