these are the cases, this hunting was like an animal, like an animal, and therefore, that is why the holocaust has an exclusive character, exclusively in this regard for israel, although i think, my point of view, if i were a member of the knesset, i would believe that genocides are aimed at the destruction of national consciousness itself, the physical existence of other peoples should also be recognized, and this in principle corresponds to the definition of genocide, which, as you know, was created by a lawyer of jewish origin, mr. lemkin, who here in lviv, i was born next to literally our studio, i also talk about a lot of things, that all this happened here in these lands, one way or another, and the holocaust and the pogroms, and the legal definition of what the holocaust is, all of this came together, so again, i'm not going to say this is the right approach.

simply because i always believed that this was the wrong approach, i always told my israeli friends that this was the wrong approach, but we have to understand why this is so, the ukrainian had a conditional chance to save himself not simply because he could come to the city and survive there, no came and died on the spot, you simply already, well , and it happened that they simply did not let you out, i mean , if you broke out, you could simply not make it, but simply, if you lived there and were ukrainian, you were allowed to do all this. to hope for survival, that is, you were simply not starving, with the holocaust there was a different situation, much more complicated, and it was the first situation of total, total destruction of a people, by the way, hitler, as you know, relied on the genocides in armenia, he said , that no one remembers the armenian genocide, and therefore, if we destroy all the jews, that too everyone will forget, but he didn't understand either, he was also in the stereotypical understanding of the armenian genocide, no matter how strange it sounds, because the armenian genocide was primarily political . genocide, they destroyed

a huge number of people, their resettlement campaign and so on, but they could not get to everyone, and there was no such absolute goal for them, because they wanted to destroy the armenians not just as a nation, as a national movement, the young turks , as a national movement that, in their opinion, threatened the empire, by the way, something similar happened during the second world war, when resettlement led to physical deaths and to the destruction of entire settlements. the peoples of the soviet union , what happened to the crimean tatars, and to the peoples of the caucasus, and to the peoples of the volga region, these were signs of genocide, because i say that people were resettled to other places, how many people died on the way, the vistula operation, that's all there was a continuation of this practice, as you understand, so, by and large, we also have to understand this, and that is something that could not be talked about. on the day of remembrance of the victims

of the holocaust, but maybe we have to say that the eviction of germans from those territories that were ceded to the soviet union and poland , other countries also already had signs of genocide, can you imagine how many people did not make it, and these were just ordinary ones, they could have been german children, uh, of course, this is another question , how people are responsible for the atrocities of their own state and government with their own lives, but simply these practices, we thought that they would end with the second world war, and by and large the very creation of the state of israel was... also an admission of guilt, although the state of israel was created, strangely enough, for other people, for those who escaped the holocaust, because from the very beginning they did not believe in the possibility of survival in europe, the leaders of the zionists, who were, as you understand, marginal in the jewish political movement, always, always, they were considered some kind of strange people, so that the majority of people wanted to live here, and when they came and told their compatriots from germany, poland, and other codes that you... you have to go to palestine, you

will not survive here, they were all told, listen, we are germans, what about you i want to play with what you have here is a nation state in palestine, well please, they are ready to help, but don't touch us, and only some small groups of people, they really listened to it, they were not many in number, but they were the people who survived, that's why there were waves there, migrations are connected with this move, this too. the whole story, when i'm in tel aviv and i'm walking there on zengoff street, i remember being told that the old people of the city, that this street all spoke german, because they were german jews who fled from hitler, not from a good life, they did not want to go there to palestine by and large, because it was a completely distant civilization from them, but they survived, i was once in hamburg at an exhibition dedicated to the great german poet elsa laskersch. she was

one of the few jewish german intellectuals of jewish descent who survived because she decided that she believed without being a zionist, being a brilliant german poet like that, you know. german such a decadent moved to palestine and there were such two photos which immediately showed how everything has changed , you know, the lady we saw in the films of the 20s with a long cigarette, a woman like that , a hairstyle like that, a leather suit, a dress , lamer dietrich, this is berlin. and next to me, a lady who is already a little stuck in this asian dress, combed in this manner of our grandmothers, this is jerusalem, her, she actually changed

her identity from this trip of hers, and by and large, it was not only a loss of identity for her, it is german culture that has lost a great poet who was one of those who created. in what we think german civilization, so there is a lot to think about, but i say again that for me the conclusion from the holocaust, this is what concerns the memory of my relatives, this is why a nation state is needed at all, this is a great lesson for everyone, that if you don't have a state capable of standing up for you, the soviet... did not evacuate jews from the occupied territories, although he knew exactly what would happen to them, he gave all these evacuation certificates only to those he needed, well, at military enterprises , somewhere else, somewhere else, and the general mass of ordinary people remained to wait

extermination, because the soviet government was not a jewish government, it was, if you will, a russian government, well, in fact, it was russian, whatever it made up about itself, it was a russian government. the russian soviet government, he didn't care about everyone else, and the only government, as it turns out, that can protect the jews at this critical moment is the israeli government, politically, because the jews are becoming, the israelis are becoming a political nation, because the only the government that can protect ukrainians is the ukrainian government, not in the end, if that's us too let's understand, in today's world, if something so shocking happens, we will have to remember again that there are... ukrainian governments are the ukrainian state, because, let's say, at the moment of final tests, it may turn out that even the country you live in there 10 or 20 years, even the country of the passport that you have will not think of you, and this can be a disappointment, but on the other hand, if you have a country, you will know that you will be accepted in this country without fail,

which is basically what we did in 1991 year, if you like, it is also one of the consequences, one of the results of what happened in... ukrainian jews, they are quite different, because there are those who remember some jewish traditions, somehow continue them, and there are those who as you say , everyone has a jewish friend, a friend of mine once told me that i have jewish roots, i say, well, what is there in your family ? shoulders and said, i don't know, and i say, it's yours... unfortunately, became that family that just grinded and turned into an ordinary soviet family, well, on the one hand yes, on the other hand , agree that we understand what a modern nation is, not necessarily when it comes to religious traditions, about the fact that people there pray in a synagogue or in church,

with a large number of ukrainians, also a huge number of people there are not, let's say, religious, do not celebrate religious holidays, but feel themselves ukrainians, and by the way, this is some kind of thing that is... how can you say, some kind stronger than a person, i i see a huge number of times how the people you call soviet people who didn't remember their jewish origins came to jerusalem, i just saw it with my own eyes, as it suddenly happened, they started to feel a connection, i saw people who said that they were not jews, but in the moment they heard folk songs, they knew for sure that these were their songs, although how could their parents not be there singing. and grandfather, we had, like the ukrainians, by the way, a generation was missed in the soviet era, this is the generation, relatively speaking, of my parents, because it was a struggle against cosmopolitanism, intimidation, wild anti-semitism, people were just afraid, but it is exactly one generation, from the generation

of grandfathers to the generation of grandchildren, this connection has been restored again, i am already part of this restored, well, generation, well, and sorry if we are in... 2000 years living on this land produced one generation, it is not so big for us, not such a big blow, it is a long history, you understand, just like ukrainians, if they have lived in the territory for 200 years. released a couple of generations there, because they were rutified, if we take the development of this, i would say the ethnos, from the time there, the principalities of kyiv, the principalities of kyiv there and the principalities of chernihiv, conditionally speaking, and up to today's ukraine, how many years is it, it 's about 200 years there, and from that, there were moments when ukrainians were polonized there, there were moments when ukrainians were russified, but somehow they remained ukrainians, although there were some generations that i even once wrote

in the year 91, i think, an article ukrainian jews are like a rich bird, and i compared ukrainian jews with polish, i said what it is, let's say a polish jew is a person, who may or may not know her traditions there , be a secular person, she feels like a jew, but she speaks polish, she is part of polish society, she is interested in the polish state, polish civilization, these are two parts that make her to polish jews, as hungarian, hungarian and so on, and so on, that is, it is romanian romanian, and what is a ukrainian jew, for the most part it is a russian-speaking person, actually yes, but also ukrainian, but why, because he is a ukrainian himself, it is russian-speaking man, this one a jew lives in a place where a ukrainian speaks to him in russian and to his wife in russian, in order for ukrainian jews to appear, one important condition was needed, for the ukrainians themselves to appear as a state-building nation that itself speaks the ukrainian language . and which itself is proud of its statehood, history, culture, and does not want to settle under

its elder brother, and then people who have, relatively speaking, make up national minorities in this country, not only jews, but jews as well, jews are an indicator, to things, they become ukrainian, and this happened over these 30 years, since recently i have been here with my good friend, an israeli diplomat, who was also born there in ukraine, he said to me: do you remember what happened in general? in these last 10 years, ukrainian jews appeared, and when i repatriated to israel, they were not there, well , of course, i could not say that they were not there, there were some single people, ugh, at whom we looked and thought, how they were the bearers of this ukrainianness, being jews, and they were also different, grandfather panas was, well, the vekslerov actor, who was just me... i would never even have suspected him of being jewish, because he was simply the embodiment of ukrainian for me, then i realized how

close it is, if a person, he didn't play, he was like that in essence of his character , there was, let's say, the ukrainian poet abram katsnelson, who wrote poems in the ukrainian language there, managed the laboratory of young ukrainian poets and many people, er, even famous classics of ukrainian poetry, i don't even want to just name names, because that's how it is, these people created itself. such an image that you don’t even want to tell them to write in russian, but he converted them to the creativity of the ukrainian language, because when this tsivachola person of jewish origin with the surname katsnelson came up and asked, why do you write so lovingly in russian, she somehow became conscientious and people returned to their culture and so many people, so here, but it could not be called a mass, we can call a thunder the consciousness of the community, this happened... in our eyes, it is such a miracle, by the way, as , miraculously, that's what happened to the ukrainian people

, what happened to ukrainian jewry is so wonderful, we could, as a rule, people do not see such things, in what historical eras they take place, and we can only read about it in history textbooks, in general, what we we see today in ukraine, what is usually read in history textbooks, you and i, witnesses , can talk about it in the same way as journalists, in general, journalists do not talk about it in the program, historians talk about it in seminars, there are some books , then about this one the era will be told. which we can discuss with you on television, this is such a gift of fate, but another historical event that we are watching is what is happening now between israel and palestine, and now israel is now accused of being the one who conducts politics genocide regarding the gas sector, well, it is interesting that the international court of the un , which was addressed by the south african republic, partially for... filed a lawsuit and did not issue a decision on a ceasefire in the gas sector, which

is, of course, a serious defeat for those who this lawsuit filed because it was important for them to have a decision on the temporary provision of this claim, israel was no longer accused of genocide, but an investigation was started, and temporary measures are ordered, these temporary measures oblige israel to take measures that would prevent genocide in gaza until the court decides whether there was genocide, but... the most important thing would be if the un international court recognized that israel should cease fire. israel would not cease fire. and he was then accused of violating the decision international court. organizations of the united nations. this was a diplomatic idea that failed. and this is also a very interesting moment, that in principle, the organizers of this lawsuit, they did not say a single word about the israeli hostages who are in the hands of hamas. they did not say a single word about the fact that hamas carried out this attack

on israel, a situation when israel itself had no idea about any operation in the gas sector. and that. to a certain extent, it also speaks of certain double standards, you see, we hear all the time that a conflict is imminent in the east, he proved to the global rooster that the west adheres to double standards, and we say this as some kind of accomplished thing that does not even need to be disputed, but i am interested, here is this great figure of our time, cyril romafosov, who is accused of corruption, who his predecessor accuses him of... corruption and released him from prison after a visit to moscow, by the way, because there was no place for him in prison, they didn't find a place for president tabombeki, and this is the person who filed a lawsuit against against israel ugh, she went to moscow with complete peace of mind, kissed there with vladimir putin,

the troops bombarding the civilian population, despite the fact that ukraine ugh. russia did not attack , we are not hamas, we did not attack anyone , our territories are occupied, they are shelled , every day civilians, children die in our country, it can certainly not be called genocide, who are we compared to the palestinian arabs, no one, oh, but this must still be taken into account, these troops were there in the butches, wards and other places that had already become a symbol of genocide for europe, they killed, raped, robbed there. were destroyed and cyril ramofosa did not even think about it, at least to tell comrade putin, uh, well, to express some of his fe, even in contrast to some of the same on renderremod, did not tell him that war is bad, but just wants the parties somehow ceased fire, as if we were one, equal participants in this conflict, did not leave brics, did not break relations with the russian

federation, did not do anything, moreover, tried somehow somehow with... to make it so that putin came to see him in johannesburg and then he was simply scared that the south african court, which does not obey him to the end, could arrest putin and bemtz would be there and convinced putin not to fly, but there was lavrov, a representative of this very genocidal regime, so why we should seriously pay attention to some lawsuits that cyril romafos is submitting to the international court of the united nations with this campaign, seriously, this is... real double standards, you see, this is an issue that should be seriously considered and to show all the cynicism of all these countries that tell us about the

so-called genocide of the palestinian population, and there is nothing good in the death of peaceful people anywhere. and a palestinian child is just as pitiful as a jewish or ukrainian one, it doesn't even need to be explained, but again, we remember with you all these stories when israeli hostages are in palestinian families, and they protect them, but recently there was a story about a hostage who escaped from captivity, he was later found out about it only because he was known. released, by the way, because he had a second russian passport and his release was such a demonstration of putin 's capabilities that he released several people there, but he is an israeli, uh, he escaped from captivity, and ordinary peaceful palestinians found him and handed him over hamas to

itself, well, peaceful residents, well, this also says a lot, so when we speak, listen here... there are militants, and there is a civilian population that does not participate in anything at all, they are hostages, well, they approximately such hostages as the russians are putin's hostages, here we are now we are talking to you, you see how many people are standing in lines to sign these signature sheets for boris nadezhdin, who is a very conditional anti-war candidate, but he at least says that he wants to stop the war, and look, they are standing in lines, no one knows them touching, true, yes, well, if they really were. would like to stop the war, there would be 10 times more, 100 times more, we would see it, that is, it turns out that you, we say that russia is an authoritarian country, they put everyone in prison there, when you... .stockings on to a famous place, you come to some club, then you get rinsed all over the television channels, that's all clear, but it turns out that when you participate in

a procedure that is authorized by the authorities, you have the opportunity to express your civil position without consequences, and these people, there are many, many of them for such a totalitarian country, but certainly not so much that we said that the russian population is part of this russian chauvinistic plan, that is also asking a lot. says, therefore, when they say that the civilian population does not participate in anything, the civilian population allows such regimes, the civilian population of the gas sector elected hamas in the parliamentary elections and would elect him again if there were free elections now, with a greater result, the civilian population of russia elected putin and will elect him again, i think in fair elections, because they may not have elected such a number, it is also important to remember, and it is also an illustration of this whole situation. "if the hamas militants thought about their own civilian population, they would definitely not take hostages, they would release them, because they had an opportunity for a truce,

they would improve the conditions for their own civilian population population so that it can return to those places where there are no militants, they want these people to be human shields, and for some reason here are all these supporters from johannesburg, that is, from pritoria, they do not even think about it, because unfortunately , when they were active politically during the struggle against apartheid, they did the same thing, that's the problem, that's why they understand hamas better than israel. today we are talking about genocide, and actually, whether this is the mass deportation of ukrainian children to russia or not eventually recognize it as genocide, as, as actions that mean, that have features of genocide, certainly because it is an actual conscious intervention. that is, in the composition of the population of a certain territory, an attempt to artificially change the composition of the population, to change the identity against

the will of the people, against the will of the parents, against the will of the children themselves, using actual force, and that is why, by the way, you know that this is an accusation , which was presented to putin by the hague tribunal, it is precisely related to the deportation of children, we simply did not even understand, i think, before the nomination of this accusations, what profound consequences do these have... and putin won't understand, he doesn't understand such things at all, if he did, he wouldn't admit it on camera, he didn't understand at all what he was doing wrong, why? because according to the russian tradition, serfs are property. he, for him, this is about the same as when they once stole an enterprise in the luhansk and donetsk regions, which, when they did not think of annexing them, but simply developed there a bridgehead for an attack, they took all the enterprises from there, but why a machine is different from a person, and you can go and work for... the master, and that is why he discussed it so calmly with this lviv and bilova, since it was about some things, this is also probably the attitude of russians towards children, they

believe that it's also kind of like property, how long will it be before it's officially said that it's genocide? i think it's a long time, because all these processes, they're happening, you need evidence , you need witnesses to testify, you need to go through a certain procedure and... in any case, i think the very fact of expulsion accusations, this is already an important thing, but again, how possible is an absentee procedure in such a situation? to what extent is it possible to bring to justice those who really participated, do you remember how the gas hearings were, when the gas was involved, when there was a story with the plane, how many years did it go on, ugh, who was found guilty in the end, the shooter was found guilty , who has now been imprisoned for four years in russia, and it is also interesting that if somehow... the situation develops in an unpredictable way, he will sit for four years, and then putin's regime, let's say, will collapse in these four years, and he will be betrayed, ugh, then

he should pray that putin is alive and well, that he gets out of prison, or just that he sits in a better prison with better conditions, but not the rest of his life, here he will be imprisoned for four years and will again engage in sabotage, this is such a thing, although you know how in russia he spent four years, and then they gave you another 10 for bad behavior, like in... like navalny and so it will be in life, will russia fulfill this decision of the gaza tribunal at its own discretion, well jokes, jokes, this is all also a lot of what this tribunal says, what we said at the time: if there will not be a solution, the russians believed that there would not be one, that they were deliberately dragging out the time, after all, the people who were in this international tribunal for the destruction they wanted this malaysian plane so that later there would be no legal claims against them, and when it comes to such large-scale crimes, it is a long process, do you remember how many years, there are 20 years? the work of this tribunal continued in yugoslavia and rwanda, but in the end they found almost everyone in our rank, even

our...colleagues with you, what can you call it, colleagues of solovyov and skabiyeva, to be more precise, who called on the radio to destroy all their fellow countrymen, they simply called for a little bit of a different ethnic origin, but they were all found and imprisoned, all these radio on radio a thousand hills, it seems to have been called, so by the way, you have to think about this, too, by the way, this announcer of the radio thousand hills from moscow, that putin still has... billions of dollars there and he can change his face there, change the face of shaig , change the gender to a bear, make friends with him and go to argentina early to live a happy family life. and solovyov hardly has so many possibilities anymore? well, solovyov is of jewish origin, he already at the beginning of the war of invasion began to remind us that he is a poor, unfortunate jew, which he was criticized for, but if there is a case of the international tribunal in gas, he will not

be able to use it, because the law on . does not apply, does not apply to people against whom criminal proceedings have been initiated, this is such a wise law, it says that if you want, if you didn't remember your jewish identity, and then you want to use it to avoid criminal prosecution, you first go to prison and then come, so solovyov doesn't have that much opportunity, despite what he has there have jewish origin, they should also remember that, it does not save in such a situation, no, these are the trends in the world here... you go and the economist conducted a survey and 20-20 respondents aged 18-29 believe that glokost is a mvv. er, it will not be possible to cancel the holocaust like this, 20% in america, young people from 18 to 29. the fact that the world is somehow god's will , education, i think it's an issue of education, it's an issue of social classes, and it's an issue again of avoiding responsibility, that

the united states is responsible for... the holocaust, when they for ships with jews who wanted to escape were turned around, and these ships returned to europe, where people were then burned, is this a responsibility, or is it just a reluctance to increase migration risks, speaking in the language of our friend president donald trump, well, that's a good question, really, and of course in such a society where on the one hand there is an absolute revulsion to any such xenophobic things, it has grown stronger over the years, thankfully. and on the other hand, you understand that in north america, there in the 30s and 40s, the jews also suffered from discrimination for whatever reason, it's just that we live in a different time, and that's why the whole american society wanted to talk about that now to take responsibility, no, that's why there are certain strata who simply try to believe that all this did not happen, it's easier to live that way, you know, if at all to announce someone else's, especially your crime, your

liability of invention. it is much easier to live like this, and therefore, by the way, i think that even after the war we will have to go through a difficult conversation about what were the problems in ukrainian society, in historical ones, to what extent we can take responsibility for the crimes and sins of the past, to place this responsibility morally for the crimes and sins committed against ukrainians during these centuries of the existence of the ukrainian nation, because you understand, you only when you are morally pure. you can remind others about responsibility, and that too, we still have to go through, as you understand, in various dialogues, mr. vitaly, thank you for today's conversation, thank you for the saturday political club, thank you to our viewers who were with us, vitaliy portnikov, lesya vakulyuk, saturday political club.

exhausting battles, the armed forces of ukraine defends itself in order to go on the attack, the results of the 18th ramstein, what secret weapon does ukraine get and an alternative to expensive shells, how do ukrainians assemble drones, just at home? congratulations, anna yavamelnik is with you, and this is the news, summaries of the week. muscovites attacked poltava with rockets. is hitting an industrial facility in the kremenchug district - announced the head of the region, philip pronin. a fire broke out as a result of the shelling, all emergency services are working. information about the victims is being clarified. a child was killed as a result of an attack by the russians, with an aerial bomb on small borluk in the kharkiv region . a 13-year-old girl died in the hospital today. the occupiers dropped another 17 bombs on the village.