er, trade their oil resources and have good relations with official ankara, what can erdogan and putin talk about on february 12? wow, the spectrum is such that we can, as they say, only write out the issues of the agenda, of course, we react extremely sensitively to such contact, and this is absolutely normal, because those who are friends or try to communicate with our enemies are always perceived, emotionally, like those who are trying to change sides there, or not to find their own benefit in such communication, in fact, turkey usually has their interests, but ankara does not stop efforts to find an opportunity, as they say, to find peace in the region , to persuade in a certain way to return to the negotiating table, first of all russia, but they will also offer most likely to us, and this topic always sounds and even... according to

the results of a recent telephone conversation with president zelensky, this was publicly voiced, although in fact the peculiarity of the turkish side is that they do not offer any solutions of their own, they are only ready to provide support in order to form a certain atmosphere, to form logistical support and so-called facilitation, that is, to create conditions for negotiations. they understand that this is frozen ice, and offer their own solutions, knowing enough. our position is a rather stubborn position of the aggressor country , so in this case it will be more about bilateral relations, that is , energy is on the agenda first of all, these are issues related to trade in gas, oil, and nuclear energy in the launch of the first nuclear power plant in turkey, these questions are related to trade, to those questions what... uh, western countries are putting before

ankara in terms of preventing the circumvention of sanctions, uh, and such situations from time to time come to the attention of the media, and it causes quite a serious reaction here in turkey. in addition, of course, this is a problem of the region, this is also the south caucasus, this is syria, first of all, because it causes the most concern in ankara, because the attacks on the eastern regions of turkey and... destabilization takes place precisely from the territory of northern northern syria, this is especially true of the region controlled by local courts, so-called the ypg, or syrian democratic forces, is extremely annoying to ankara, and there have already been several attempts there to launch another offensive against this sistrian kurdish enclave in syria , and this is one such stumbling block.

in possible communication with the assad regime, since already last year there were certain such public discussions about the need to restore contacts between zhenkara and damascus, but so far this direction has not taken place, that is, no visits have taken place, although the mediation of russia, as you know, there is also the astana process , and it's basically on par or development, or the ministry of foreign affairs, such communication takes place to some extent, but assad insists on the withdrawal of turkish troops from the territory. syria, on the other hand, turkey insists on the creation of a 30-kilometer security zone and is not going to withdraw its troops until the problem of what they consider the threat of kurdish separatism from the territory of syria is resolved. well, here is the question that should have been the first, lesya. after all, what is happening today between ankara and kyiv, mr. vasyl? between ankara and kyiv continues intensive dialogue, and in order for us to have no illusions about contacts from ankara with...

other capitals that particularly annoy us, i.e. iran and russia, let's remember that representatives of the united states are also here quite often of the states, linkin was recently, he was here just a few days ago, the head of the british foreign office, there was the prime minister, er, from italy, and also our dialogue is developing, we are now planning several important events, in the coming weeks in some members of the government will visit us here, i will not rush ahead with disclosure information has not yet been made public, but we have already formed the agenda for this year, we basically finished last year on a positive note , and as far as defense cooperation and trade and economic cooperation are concerned, we are growing, of course not everything goes public space and... first of all, this refers to the request from

ankara not to disclose all areas in the public space, as this in a certain way, as vankari believes, narrows their foreign policy maneuver, but... cooperation is underway, and those areas that i have already publicly discussed spoke, and those areas that will be announced by the relevant leaders, who functioned in certain areas, if it were their responsibility, then this year, i believe, we will have serious changes that will benefit both the defense capability and the strengthening of the economic i will have potential. thank you, mr. vasyl, vasyl bodner, ambassador of ukraine to the republic of turkey, was with us for... we will be in touch in just a few minutes, stay with us. kratal contains natural components that carefully care for your heart. kratal improves blood supply and functional state

of the myocardium, normalizes heart rate , increases physical and mental performance. kratal, a natural power for your heart. there are discounts on citramon darnytsia, 10% in... travelogue for you and save money. bleeding and inflammation of the gums. my advice. lakalut active. lakalut active actively overcomes bleeding gums. protects against periodontitis and visibly tightens the gums. lacquer active - an action that you feel immediately. novelty. lacquer activ+ with two-phase technology and plus active ingredients. for even more active protection lacal aktiv++. oh, and got wet. would you like some tea? mom, dad, what should i do to avoid getting sick? vitamin c, d3, zinc and the main one - quercitin. to strengthen blood vessels, just take quertin immuno, all in one package, in one capsule , four components together, so simple, one capsule a day, so convenient, quertin immuno, there are 15% discounts on strength detox at the pharmacies of plantain, pam and save . an unusual look at

the news. good health, ladies and gentlemen, my name is mykola veresen. sharp presentation of facts and competent opinions. and in america too they say, let's make better roads , we will have even better roads. a special look at the events in ukraine, there will be some katsaps on the border of kyiv and beyond. what kind of world does norman dream of, can we imagine it? all this in an informational marathon with mykola veresny. saturday 17:10, sunday 18:15 at espresso. verdict with serhii. rudenko from now on, in a new two-hour format , even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion on the evil of the day with the help of a phone survey, turn on

and turn on, the verdict with serhiy rudenko, every weekday from 20 to 22 on espresso. we continue the saturday political club program, les vakulyuk, vitaly portnikov, thank you, dear friends, for being with us, for being at espresso, we will now start the conversation with january 27, which is the international day of remembrance for the victims of the holocaust, what humanity experienced in the last century a terrible tragedy, and in the 21st century somehow you did not do it. conclusions from all that, sir vitaly, is there anyone in your family who has suffered? well, of course, my family suffered, it's just such a thing, you can't say that someone in the family suffered, you can say that someone in the family survived, that's a completely different story with the holocaust, that

's just how these issues look, that's why that my parents, grandmother and... grandfather, my grandmother's sister on my father's side, with a baby and with a husband, this martyrology can be continued for quite a long time, and some died in bavynoy yer, others died in different places in ukraine, that was the famous one is terrible a holocaust by bullets, you understand, because if the jews were there in poland or lithuania, they were sent to concentration camps. ghetto, then they destroyed it, then in ukraine, when the nazis came, they simply shot the population, they had no idea of ​​creating a ghetto here on most of the territory of our country, so this is precisely in western ukraine, here they were, you know, ghettos, which turned into camps, because these were different forms of destruction, different forms

of territory management, but i think that it is necessary to look at it more globally, in principle, so that we understood what is happening now, because it is very strongly connected with the russian-ukrainian war as well, that is in history. anti-semitism as such had two eras. the first era is connected with the time of faith, the era of faith in the history of mankind. when, in principle , a person's identity was determined by his faith, and the obvious deep chasm between christianity and judaism, to some extent the complex relationship, not so complex between islam and judaism, led to such mutual rejection, to such tragedies as the expulsion of the jewish population from of the pivanesky peninsula, but on the other hand , as you understand, people who became christians or muslims, as a rule , avoided the... they became an organic part of the societies in which they lived,

also not without suspicions that this they did only outwardly, but we know that a large part of the population of spain, portugal, it is not known how huge, has jewish ethnic roots, this is the part of people who decided not to leave, but to accept christianity, we do not even imagine their number in these times , but it was this is exactly the situation when jews... lived their lives in their communities, they did not interfere in the lives of christians, christians did not try to interfere in their lives, these were parallel worlds, and with very complicated relations, but parallel, that is, with extermination, pogroms , problems, but not total, total situations with extermination happened there episodically in the history of europe, let's say, like the pogroms of bohdan khmelnytskyi, let's say in ukraine, when almost all ukrainian jews were exterminated, it's still wonderful. not an example of such total extermination until holocaust, that's why before hitler bohdan khmelnytskyi was such a main negative

character in jewish mythology even, ugh, but on the other hand bohdan khmelnytskyi destroyed all the greek catholic priests during his uprising, this was also not aimed exclusively at jews, it was unorthodox, this is an orthodox uprising, so in the end, ukraine ended up in the arms of a wonderful man, the orthodox tsar of moscow, well, this is a separate story, i think we will have to continue with the legacy of bohdan khmelnytsky... gather with time, no no now, with the great french revolution , a completely different era began, uh, when it was determined that the european population , at least, they have equal rights, not religion, but citizenship have, uh, status, this also happened slowly, as the famous story about there about german patriots of jewish origin who fought against the french invaders, being members of the senates of their... cities, heads of regional authorities, such as, say, the father

of the great german poet heinrich heinen, and when the germans returned, they were expelled from all of these institutions, they were not jews and not christians according to german laws, they could not sit there, the french occupiers gave them the opportunity to choose and fight with them, and their german leaders, whom they defended and returned, immediately returned them to their own. a place behind the fence, but in the end it ended with a complete triumph of equality in europe, the last was russia, as always, which kept the jews within the limits of settlement until 1917 and created a kind of ghetto there in our territories of ukraine, poland, belarus, lithuania. the russians have never allowed any jews to live on their territories, only merchants of the first guild there, and someone else with a special permit, that is, why yes, well... that impure people of the wrong faith, i remind you of this again, orthodox empire, so when russians say that

ukrainians and belarusians are one people, you can ask them the following question: if the people are one, why could jews live among ukrainians and belarusians, but not among great russians, what kind of one people is this, that one can communicate with unclean by faith , and others are not allowed, it was already absolutely clear, i would say the separation, that the russians, the great russians, they are like that... they are all really orthodox, and that’s the way it is, you know, but wait, then the russians started telling about how they cleansed the world of nazism, well it is, it was already the next yes , but i just want to say about another thing, however, that we went back to the holocaust, by and large the real competition began, well that is, people of jewish origin, not necessarily religious, very often secular, like christians, began to live one life with their neighbors, and that's how it turned out, if the period of existence within the framework of religious such inter-religious separation. continued in europe for about 1,500 years and did not lead to

the disappearance of jews in europe, then the period before this existence within the framework of equal rights continued , but it is considered from 1789 to 19403, how long is that? well, about 250 years, 50 years, well , it turns out that the european peoples, not only the germans, could not stand this competition, they simply decided on those whom they considered competitors, just get rid of them physically . well, such a continental solution, ugh, that was the holocaust, a terrible absolute thing, because in principle this is a conditional religious division, which almost did not exist anymore, because you understand that there the jews... why is it a big shock, they considered themselves germans , that they were part of a political nation, patriots of germany, the jews of france considered themselves patriots of france, the jews of poland, for the most part at least there in this, i would say the non-religious part of the population, which was already huge, were patriots of poland, all these people were symbols of cultural and scientific achievements, well, of course, like the great polish poet julian

tuwim, or the great german poet heinrich heiney or there... all these german writers, poets and musicians and artists are famous, there are some imre calman, is the french prime minister edgar heriot there, well , they were just people who will be a part of this in their lives, i'm not going to mention all these names and all that other stuff right now, because it looks strange again, for these it didn't matter to people that they were jews, remember when nikol sarkazy became the president of france not so long ago, then all russian publications. and the french did not even mention it at all, you see, in principle, it is always mentioned in russia, here is the current minister of defense of great britain, he is a jew, where do we learn about this, not at all from the guardian newspaper, but from some russian telegram channel, it bothers them forever, ugh, in europe it stopped being interesting a long time ago, because they think about the interests of the political nation,

you see that putin every time he mentions zelensky, ugh, he immediately a jew mentions him. the origin is something that ukrainians don't even remember at all, you need to know it specifically, here's this and this and this one. this is the question of the victory over nazism, so in this respect it is an important moment when the european peoples moved away from the second world war a little bit, understood what happened, uh, in principle, the european jews themselves were almost gone, because you understand, that here are these communities, which remained ten thousand people in each country, somewhere more, somewhere less, they number a few million. communities that existed before the second world war, by and large, the jews were another european people, destroyed by their neighbors , just a large nation of a million people, it all disappeared, the jews after the holocaust exist in the form of a completely different, i would say group of communities, one of these is the israelis in the state, the other is american jews, european

jews are rather such a memorial complex, they are people in cemeteries, if at all. you can say people, this is a small group of communities in cemeteries, which are completely, by the way, these communities, which are in different countries, they are completely integrated into the life of their communities, and by and large, you and i are now observing the same thing with the ukrainian jews, who would always be part of the russian and then the imperial soviet discourse, but precisely because ukraine, as an independent state of all things civilized , has existed for 30 years, jews ukrainians become ukrainian jews, literally. in terms of integration into society, in terms of language, in terms of compliance with the understanding of how this country is developing, this is a small community, but it is ukrainian, and the people who are close to these people, as a rule, are not very they remember their jewish origin, as i have already said, as they do not remember about it, relatively speaking, poles or hungarians or french

people, but how many years have passed since the holocaust? somewhere in the 80s, 80s, the quality of the second world war, and i keep trying to say about this that , look, the second world war is over, people were in complete dismay, ugh, and even in the soviet union they said that if there had been no war, in at some point, all this is in the generation of people, they perish, died, and people came who began to say that we can do it again, ugh, it's a change of discourse when the generation that remembers what war is is disappearing. there are always those who say that war is a walk, the continuation of politics by other means, all the things that people who start a war always say, and it happened, and not only in russia, but i would say in the world, just democratic world, they look at values ​​in a different way, but wherever these values ​​are not there, they immediately decided that it is possible to defend it with war, now with the holocaust

, almost the same thing happened, generations came who do not feel their responsibility. parents marched for the holocaust, because you know, if there 40 years ago i go to an anti-israel demonstration, even with any good intentions there, i will remember that maybe my father, or myself, here i was at this on this street, i was sitting in this apartment, and my neighbor was taken to the police station with a three-year-old child, to whom i gave a piece of candy yesterday, and what was i doing? i didn't do anything, i lived my life, i went to work. said to his wife: oh, you know, hesya was taken away from genia, and continued to drink tea with chocolate, it's unpleasant for me, i feel... if not responsibility, then i have something , it seems that i did not take part in anything at all, if god forbid i took it, or my relatives took it, i had someone who served somewhere in

the administration of the non-obvizka ss, the regime of all, then i'm already in a state where it's better if i just don't go near it, but when i'm 25 years old, ugh, and especially if i'm an american student or french and... i think that the unfortunate palestinian people feel the same way the jews during world war 2, besides i might just be anti-semitic, the normal state of many people are, you know, xenophobic, but i could never legally express it, because i understand that speaking out legally against anti-semitism is about the same as legally running around paris or new york shouting i don't like sexual minorities, i will be looked at as an idiot, as a fool from... why do i need this, but to protect palestinians, no one will say that i am anti-semitic, because i am simply protecting poor palestinian children, from a racist state, attacks against jews are nothing like

any antisem will tell you, i have a jewish friend, i have a jewish friend, i 'm here at a demonstration that i don't like jews, just let israel stop the genocide, and that's an expression of antisemitism, when a person by and large even doesn't try to understand the situation that happened, but finally has the opportunity to... her feelings without fear of being, you know, declared an anti-semite, a xenophobe and so on and so forth, and this is also by and large the end of the era of this responsibility for the past, and i to you i'll be honest, analyzing all that, i can now explain to you why it was always important for me to have a ukrainian state, if you understand why exactly about ukraine? i dreamed of a state, but i looked at my classmates when i was a child, we lived in the same state, in the soviet union, this soviet union was an anti-semitic

state, i knew it very well, i had no doubts, but i had such an inner, inner feeling that there is a ship, so to speak, beyond the borders of this idiotic state, i didn't even know what it was like looks real. but for me it was just like some kind of world where there is a government, state, army, special services, courts, and all this in order to protect me, here i am in this state, which basically discriminates against me, which considers me by and large a stranger who treats me with contempt, but i am like a small child, everyone is in someone else's family, well practically, but my parents are there. they are for me, they, you know, like a small child, says, my father will come, she tells the adults there , some children there, who insult her in the yard, my father will come and intercede for me

, remember, the child may not even have a father, he may be an orphan, he will invent a father for himself, but i was no longer an orphan, and i had this state, and i thought, but these people who lived before 1948, they were orphans, what could they say, nothing, they could only think, dream about something, but nothing, father. there was no time when you were insulted by these adult and bad boys, you could not say anything to them, you looked at them with helpless eyes, and here i was looking at mine classmates who were ukrainians, and who in fact did not have their own state, whom anyone can make fun of there, if not in ukraine, then beyond its borders in any republic, without even realizing it, i am constantly faced with situations when russians even liberals do not understand what ukrainophobia is, until now, that it was, oh, you are a village... in this rural language, they came to kyiv in front of me, tried to switch to russian, to fix something for themselves, they had nothing to fix,

they were simply ukrainians, and they had it in them to destroy themselves, so that they would not be looked at as some idiots, i always thought that if we have this ship, and there are ukrainians standing here on the deck, but their ship is captured by a group of pirates, you need to get them out of here. and that's why for me, strangely enough, this whole story with the holocaust, you with this injustice and with this unjust attitude of our neighbors towards us, was one big signpost to ukrainian independence, because i saw this justice, when independence was proclaimed on august 24, 1991 ukraine, i breathed a sigh of relief for one reason, because i... that something is wrong with me personally - i had this dream, it's true, but i thought that nothing much was changing in my life anyway, but i looked at these of all people in the meeting hall of the verkhovna rada.

they were ukrainians, for 99%, you know, no one will humiliate them again, they too will always be able now, wherever they are, here or in another country, they will be able, when they insult and humiliate someone, to remember that there is , they will come, my parents will come and everything for you they will say that there is no need to insult me, i am not small, i have adults, and this is an incredible absolute feeling, which, which... by and large, these were deprived like air, you know, but if there is no air, it is not there, you breathe fig knows what, and then you climb to some mountain top, let it be a mountain top , and you feel how clean the air is, and if you have never breathed it, and this, too, by and large , should explain what is happening in general, and by the way, i want to remind you that the ukrainians, like the jews, survived eras

of destruction, they... lived through the holodomor precisely because there was no state that was supposed to protect them, here is this ukrainian peasant, he could not look at anyone to protect me, because the enemy army came, stood around his house and simply did not let him eat, this is the same example, very often, when talking about the holocaust and the holodomor, ukrainians say that ukraine honors the victims of the holocaust, but israel did not recognize the holodomor as genocide, israel did not recognize the holodomor as genocide because of... a specific attitude towards the holocaust itself, huh , which was always meant under israeli approach, by the way, i have always believed that the holodomor must be recognized as genocide, the genocide of the armenian people must be recognized. israel does not do this, because it means that when the holodomor occurred, ukrainians as a nation, as an ethnic target, could survive in other places, except the surrounded zones, that is,

relatively speaking, you were dying. famine in central ukraine, ugh, and my family that lived in that central ukraine actually witnessed and barely survived in that central ukraine, even though it was a jewish family, but if you lived in kyiv or in the dnipro or in kharkiv, no one ran after you and shouted that you are ukrainian and did not take bread from you under these conditions, on the contrary, the idea of ​​the holodomor is conditional in this, that ukrainian peasants took bread to feed formally ukrainian... workers in cities, because it was such a dictatorship, cynical, well, in fact , they sold it abroad, but, as it was all explained, something similar is happening with the armenian genocide, which is also strange, because the armenians remained to live in the turks, they were exterminated in large numbers, emigrated almost all of them, but there are still, as you know, armenian communities in turkey, they are few,

try to find them. but they are there , and there is such a stereotype that they do not exist in principle and that turkish people do not talk about it and do not mention it, for me, when i was turkish for the first time, i went to the store, i collected, when there were discs, i collected jewish folk music, i went to the store to buy turkish jewish music, and here i see that next to this disk of turkish jewish music is turkish armenian music, and for me it was before certain... destruction of stereotypes, because i had no idea that armenians were in turkey, and only after, i became interested in this, when i learned about the death of the turkish journalist grant dink of armenian origin, i realized that it is much more complicated process, if you were a jew, you basically had no chance of surviving the holocaust, and not only a jew, but you remember that if ukrainians, why are people given the title of the righteous of the world, if a ukrainian hid a jew and he was found... , then

this ukrainian and his members were also shot family, that's why i think that these people are just saints, well, you, let 's put ourselves in their place, here you have to hide someone, and you think that you are responsible not only for your life, but for the life of your a small child, you would start doing it, you would think 300 thousand times, the truth is, it is a difficult choice, it is a difficult choice, and if you make such a choice, it is not at all clear what kind of human qualities you have. such may not be available to us, but what am i talking about, that these are such cases, this hunting was like a beast like a beast, and that is why the holocaust has an exclusive character, exclusively in this regard for israel, although i think, my point of view, if i were a member of the knesset, i would think that genocides are aimed at destroying the national consciousness itself , the physical existence of other peoples must also be recognized.