he hid a jew and he was found, then this ukrainian and his family members were shot. that's why i think these people, they 're just saints, well, you, let 's put ourselves in their place, here you have to hide someone, and you think that you are responsible not only for your life, but for the life of your little one baby, would you do that? you would think 300 thousand times, right? yes, it is a difficult choice, it is a difficult choice, if you make such a choice, then... it is not clear what kind of human qualities you have, they may not be available to us, but what am i talking about, that this these are the cases, this hunting was like an animal, like an animal, and that is why, that is why the holocaust has an exclusive character, exclusively on this occasion for israel, although i think, my point of view, if i were a member of the knesset, i would believe that genocides are aimed at the destruction of national consciousness itself, the physical existence of other peoples should also be you'. and this, in principle, corresponds to

the definition of genocide, which, as you know, was also created by a lawyer of jewish origin, mr. lemkin, who is here in lviv, literally next to was born in our studio, i, too , talk about a lot of things, that all this happened here in these lands, one way or another, and the holocaust, and the pogroms, and the legal definition of what the holocaust is, all of this in one knot. therefore, again, i am not going to say that this is the right approach, simply because i have always believed that this is the wrong approach, i have always told my israeli friends that this is the wrong approach, but we have to understand why this is so, the ukrainian conditionally had the chance to be saved was simply not because he could come to the city and survive there, no, he came and died in the city, it’s just that, well, it happened that they just didn’t let you out, i wonder why you broke out, you could just not make it, it’s just that if you

lived there and were ukrainian, all this would allow you to hope for survival, well , that is, you just did not starve, with the holocaust there was a different situation, much more complicated, and it was the first situation of total, total destruction of the people, by the way, hitler, as you know, relied on the genocides in armenia, he said that no one remembers the armenian genocide, and therefore, if we exterminate all the jews, everyone will forget about that too, but he too i don't know, he finds it too. in the stereotypical sense, strange as it sounds , of the armenian genocide, because the armenian genocide was first of all a political, political genocide, they destroyed a huge number of people, their resettlement campaigns and so on, but they could not get to everyone, and it was not for them this is such an absolute goal, because they wanted to destroy the armenians not just as a nation, as a national movement, the young turks, as a national movement that, in their opinion , threatened the empire, by the way, something similar happened in... during the second world war, when

resettlement led to physical deaths and to the destruction of entire centers of life of the peoples of the soviet union, what happened to the crimean tatars, to the peoples of the caucasus, and to the peoples of the volga region, these were signs of genocide, because i say that people were resettled to other places, how many people died in by the way, the vistula operation, that's all, it was a continuation of this practice, as you understand, yes. that by and large we also have to understand this, and something that could not be talked about on the day of remembrance of the victims of the holocaust, but maybe we have it to say that the eviction of germans from those territories that were ceded to the soviet union and poland and other countries also had signs of genocide, can you imagine how many people did not make it, and these were just ordinary ones, they could have been german children, of course, that is another question , how people are responsible for the atrocities of their own state and government with their own lives, but simply these practices we do... that they will end with

the second world war, and by and large the very creation of the state of israel was also an admission of guilt, although the state of israel was created, strangely enough for other people , for those who escaped the holocaust, because from the very beginning they did not believe in the possibility of survival in europe, the leaders of the zionists, who were, as you understand, marginal in the jewish political movement, always, always their were considered some kind of strange people, because most people wanted to live... here and when they came and told their compatriots from germany, poland, where else, that you have to go to palestine? you will not survive here, everyone told them: listen, we are germans, well, you want to play with what you have here a nation state in palestine , well please, we are even ready to help, but don't touch us, and only some small groups of people, they really listened to it, they were few in number, but they were the people who survived, so those were the waves . there

, migrations are connected with this move, this is also a whole story, when i am in telyavu and walk there on dzengof street, i remember what he told me. knew that the old inhabitants of the city, that this street spoke the whole german language, because they were german jews who escaped from hitler, not from a good life, they did not want to go there to palestine by and large, because it was a completely distant civilization from them, but they survived, i was once in hamburg at an exhibition dedicated to the great german poet elsa lasker schürer, she was one of the few jewish german intellectuals of jewish origin. which survived because she decided that she believed, not being a sianist, being a brilliant german poet so, you know, german so decadent, moved to palestine, and there were these two photographs

immediately, which showed how everything has changed, you know, the kind of lady we saw on the streets of the 20s with a long cigarette, such a woman, such a hairstyle. a tanner's suit, a lamerlandrich outfit, this is berlin and nearby, this already a little bogged-down lady in this asian dress, combed in this manner of our grandmothers, this is jerusalem, her, she actually changed her identity from this trip, and by and large, that's was for her... and not only a loss of identity, that german culture lost a great poet who was one of those who created what we we consider german civilization, so there is a lot to think about, but i say again that for me the conclusion from the holocaust, this is what concerns the memory of my relatives, this is

why a nation state is needed at all, this is a great lesson for everyone , that if... you don't have a state capable of standing up for you, the soviet union did not evacuate jews from the occupied territories, although it knew exactly what would happen to them, it gave all these evacuation certificates only to those it needed, well, on military enterprises, somewhere else, somewhere else, and the general mass of ordinary people, it remained to wait for destruction, because the soviet government was not a jewish government, it was, if you like ... a russian government, well, in fact, it was russian, whatever it invented about itself, it was a russian government, a russian the soviet government, he didn't care about everyone else, and the only government, as it turned out, that can protect the jews at this critical moment is the israeli government, from a political point of view,

because the jews become israelis become a political nation, since the only government, which can to protect ukrainians, it is the ukrainian government, not in the end, if we will understand that too. in today's world, if something so shocking happens, we will have to remember again that there are ukrainian governments, there is a ukrainian state, because at the end, let's say, at the moment of final tests, it may turn out that even the country in which you live there 10 or 20 years, even the country of your passport will not think of you, and that can be frustrating, but on the other hand, if you have a country, you will know that you will definitely be accepted in this state, that's what it is in principle. what we did in 1991, if you like, is also one of the results, one of the results of what happened in europe during the second world war. hey, ukrainian jews are quite different, because there are those who remember some jewish traditions, somehow continue them, and there are those, as you say, everyone

has a jewish friend, a friend of mine once told me that i have a jewish roots, i say, well, what is in your family like that, really something that was passed down there from grandpa-pravid? preserved, he raised his shoulders and said: i don't know, and i say, then your family, unfortunately, became that family that was simply ground up and made into an ordinary soviet family, well, on the one hand, yes , on the other hand, agree, that we understand what a modern nation is, not necessarily when it comes to religious traditions, about the fact that people there pray in a synagogue or in a church, with a large number of ukrainians, also a huge number of people... are not there, let's say , religious, do not celebrate religious holidays, but feel themselves ukrainians, and by the way, this some thing that is, how do you say, some kind of stronger than a person, i have seen a huge number of times that the people that you call soviet people, who did not

remember their jewish origin, came to jerusalem, i just that saw with my own eyes, when i suddenly left, it, they started to feel the connection, i saw people who said that they were not... jews, but the moment they heard the folk songs, they knew for sure that it was their songs, although their parents and grandparents might not have sung them there, we had them, just like ukraine. by the way, it was in the soviet one a missed generation, this is the generation , relatively speaking, of my parents, because it was a struggle against cosmopolitanism, intimidation , wild anti-semitism, people were just afraid, but it's exactly one generation, from the generation of the grandfathers to the generation of the grandchildren, this connection has been restored again , i am already a part of this restored, well, generation, well, and excuse me, if we released one generation in 200 years of living on this earth, it is not so big for us, not such a big blow. this is a long story, you understand, just like ukrainians, if they have lived in russia for 200 years

produced a couple of generations there , because they were russified, if we take the development of this, i would say ethnos from the times of the kiev principalities there, the kiev principalities there, and the chernihiv principalities, relatively speaking, and up to today's ukraine, how many years is that, it's about 200 years there , and from that there were moments when ukrainians were colonized there, there were moments when ukrainians were russified , but somehow they remained ukrainians, although there were some generations that forgot traditions, the same claims can be made to anyone , the main thing is to be durable, me i have always been interested in the jews of ukraine, and i even once wrote an article in 1991, i think, ukrainian jews are like a bird of prey, and i compared a ukrainian jew with a polish one, i said what, let's say , a polish jew is a person who may or may not know his traditions there, be a secular person. uh, she feels jewish, but she speaks polish, she is part of polish society, she

is interested in the polish state, polish civilization, these are two parts that make her a polish jew, like hungarian, hungarian and something else , and something else, that is, it is romanian-romanian, and what is a ukrainian jew, for the most part it is a russian-speaking person, actually yes, but also ukrainians, but why, because a ukrainian himself is a russian-speaking person, this jew lives in a place, where a ukrainian addresses him in russian and his wife in russian, so that ukrainian jews appear. one important condition was needed for the ukrainians themselves to appear as a state-creating nation that itself speaks the ukrainian language and that itself is proud of its statehood, history, culture, and does not want to adjust to his older brother, and then people who have, relatively speaking, make up national minorities in this country, not only jews, but jews as well, jews are an indicator, by the way, they become ukrainian, and this happened for these 30 years. was also born in ukraine, he is jewish to me, and when i repatriated to israel,

he said them, you notice what has happened in general in these last 10 years, there were no ukrainians, well, i, well, of course, it was not necessary to say that there were not , there were some single people, ugh, at which we looked and thought, how they were the bearers of this ukrainianness, being jews. and they were also different, there was grandfather panas, a wexler actor, who simply, i would never even have suspected him of being jewish, because he was simply the embodiment of ukrainian for me, i then realized how close it is, if a person, he is not played, he was like that in the essence of his character, there was, say, the ukrainian poet abram katsnelson, who wrote poems in the ukrainian language there, managed the laboratory of young ukrainian poets of virpeni and many people even well-known classics of ukrainian poetry, i don’t even want to just mention their surnames, because that’s how it is, these people have created

such an image for themselves that i don’t even want to tell whether they wrote in russian, but he converted them to the creativity of the ukrainian language, because when this a tall man of jewish origin with the surname katsnelson came up and asked: "why do you write so lovingly in russian?" somehow it became conscientious and a person returned to his culture and so many people, so here, but this... it is not possible could be called mass, you can't call it the speed of the community, this happened before our eyes, it's such a miracle, by the way , since what happened to the ukrainian people was a miracle, what happened to ukrainian jewry was a miracle, we could such things, as a rule , people do not see, in which historical epochs they take place, and we can only read about it in history textbooks, in general, what we see today in ukraine is usually read in hand-me-down histories, we, the witnesses, can to talk about it so about how, how journalists, in general. journalists do not talk about this in the program, historians talk about it at seminars, there are some books, then

they will talk about this era, which we can discuss with you on television, this is such a gift of fate, and another historical events that we observe, this is what is happening now between israel and palestine, and now israel is now accused of carrying out a policy of genocide in the gas sector, well, it is interesting that the international court of the united nations, to which i will appeal... all appealed the republic of south africa, he partially granted his claim and did not issue a decision on the ceasefire in the gas sector, which is of course... but a defeat for those who brought this claim, because for them it was important that there be a decision on the temporary enforcement of this claim, israel was no longer accused of genocide, but an investigation was launched, and the interim measures, these interim measures oblige israel to take measures that would prevent the genocide in gaza until the court decides whether there was genocide, but

the most important thing would be if international court the un has recognized that israel must cease and israel would not cease fire. and he was then accused of violating the decision of the international court of justice of the united nations. this was a diplomatic idea that failed. and this is also a very interesting moment, that in principle, the organizers of this lawsuit, they did not say a single word about the israeli hostages who are in the hands of hamas. they did not say a single word about the fact that hamas carried out this attack on... israel in a situation where israel itself did not even have these inklings about any operation in gas sector, and this to some extent also speaks of certain double standards, you understand, we hear all the time that the conflict in the middle east has proved to the global cock that the west adheres to double standards, and we say this as

some kind of perfect a thing that doesn't even need to be polemised, but i'm curious, here is this... a great figure of our time, cyril lamaphos, who is accused of corruption, who accuses his predecessor of corruption, and released him from prison after a visit to moscow, to things, because there was no place in the prison for poor him, they didn't find a place for president tabombeka, here is this person who filed a lawsuit against israel, ugh, she went to moscow with complete peace of mind, kissed there with... vladimir putin, whose troops are bombing the civilian population, while , that ukraine did not attack russia , we are not hamas, we did not attack anyone, our territories are occupied, they are shelled, every day civilians and children die in our country, it can certainly not be called genocide, who are we compared to the palestinians by arabs, no one, but this is still necessary

take into account that these troops were there in boots, beards and others. in places that have already become a symbol of genocide for europe, they killed, raped, robbed, destroyed there, and cyril ramofosa did not even think about it, if only to say to comrade putin, uh, well, to express some of his own, even unlike some of the same narendremodi, did not tell him that war is bad, but simply wants the parties to somehow cease fire, as if we are equal participants in this conflict, did not leave brics for... did not break relations with russia federation, he did nothing, moreover, he tried somehow to make putin come to him in johannesburg and then he was simply afraid that the south african court, which does not obey him to the end, could arrest putin and bemtz and convinced putin not to fly , but there was lavrov, a representative of this very genocidal

regime, so why should we seriously pay attention to any claims that cyril ramofos is making with this campaign. to the international court of the united nations organization, well, seriously, well, this is a real double standard, you see, this is such a question that should really be considered and show all the cynicism of all these countries that tell us about the genocide of the population. so-called, and there is nothing good in the death of peaceful people anywhere, and a palestinian child is just as pitiful as a jewish or ukrainian one, it doesn’t even need to be explained, but again, we remember with you all these stories when israeli hostages are palestinian families also protect them, but

recently there was a story about a hostage, who... escaped from captivity, he was later found out about it only because he was released, released, by the way, because he had a second russian passport and his release was such a demonstration of putin's capabilities that he was there several people released, but he is an israeli, ugh, he escaped from captivity and was found by ordinary peaceful palestinians and handed over to hamas. well , civilians, well, this also says a lot, so when we speak, listen, there are militants, and there is a civilian population that does not participate in anything at all, they are for... well, they are about as hostages as the russians are putin's hostages, here we are talking to you now, you see how many people are standing in lines to sign these signature sheets for boris

nadezhdin, who is a very conditional anti-war candidate, but he at least says that he wants to stop war, and look , they stand in queues, no one touches them, the truth is, if they really wanted to stop the war, there would be 10 times more, 100 times more, we would see it. that is , it turns out that you, we say that russia is an authoritarian country, everyone is imprisoned there prison, when you wear one pantyhose in a poor place, come to some club , then you are rinsed on all television channels, that's all clear, but it turns out that when you participate in a procedure that is allowed by the authorities, you have the opportunity to express your citizenship without consequences, and these people, there are many, many of them for such a totalitarian country, but... but definitely not so much that we said that the russian population is part of this russian chauvinistic plan, this also says a lot, so when he says that it is peaceful the population does not participate in anything

, the civilian population allows such regimes, the civilian population of the gas sector elected hamas in the parliamentary elections and would elect him again, if there were free elections now, let's increase the result, the civilian population of russia elected putin and will elect him again, i think that also in fair elections, because she may not have chosen from such a number, that too. it is important to remember, and this is also an illustration of this whole situation, if hamas militants thought about their own civilian population, they would definitely not take hostages, they would release them, because in they had an opportunity for a truce , they would improve the conditions for their own civilian population so that they could return to those places where there are no militants, they want these people to be a human shield, and for some reason here are all these supporters of theirs. from johannesburg , that is, from pritoria, they don't even think about it, because unfortunately, when they were active politically during the anti-apartheid era, they did the same thing,

that's the problem, so they understand hamas better than israel. we are talking about today genocide, and actually, is this mass deportation of ukrainian children to russia, or is it ultimately recognized as genocide, as actions that signify. which have signs of genocide, of course, because this is an actual deliberate intervention in the composition of the population of a certain territory, an attempt to artificially change the composition of the population, to change the identity against the will of the people, against the will of the parents, against the will of the children themselves, using actual force, and precisely so, by the way, you know that this is the accusation that was brought against putin by the hague tribunal, huh. specifically related to deportation of children, we simply did not even understand, i think, before this accusation was made, what deep consequences such actions have, putin will not understand, he does not understand such things at all, he, if he did,

he would not have admitted it on camera, he did not understand at all what he was doing wrong , why, because according to the russian tradition, shacks are property, for him it is about the same as when they stole an enterprise once in the luhansk donetsk regions, when they did not think of annexing them, but just there develop a springboard for an attack. they took all the companies out of there, but what is the difference between a machine and a person, and you can go and work for the owner, and that is why he discussed it so calmly with this woman from lviv and bilova, since it was about some things, well, this is definitely the attitude of russians to the children , they think it's also some kind of property, how long will it be before it's officially said that it's genocide, i think it's a long time, because all these pro... they're happening until we need evidence , needed for witnesses to show, needed to carry out a certain procedure, and in any case, i think that the very fact of the accusations is already an important thing, but

again, how far is it possible to proceed in absentia in such a situation, how far is it possible to bring to justice those who really participated, do you remember how there were hearings on gas, when it was in gas, when there was a story with the plane, how many years it went on, ugh, who was found guilty as a result? the culprit turned out to be strilkov, who has now been jailed for four years in russia, and it is also interesting that if somehow the situation develops in an unpredictable way, he will sit for four years, and then putin's regime, let's say, will collapse in those four years, and he will be betrayed, uh, then he should pray that putin is alive and well, that he comes out of the prisons, well, or simply he will go to a better prison with better conditions, but for the rest of his life, he will be imprisoned here for four years and will again engage in sabotage, it's such a thing. although you know how you spent four years in russia, and then you were given another 10 for bad behavior, just like navalny, and so as long as you live, russia will fulfill this decision

of the gaza tribunal. discretion, well, just kidding, and this is all a lot of what this tribunal says, that we said a while ago: there will be no decision on the plane and the russians believed that there would not be one, that they are deliberately dragging out the time, after all, the people who were in to this international tribunal for the destruction of this malaysian plane, they wanted that there would be no legal claims against them later, and when it comes to such large-scale crimes, it is a long process, do you remember how many years, for 20 years , the work of this tribunal on yugoslavia, after rwanda. but in the end, they found almost everyone in our rank, even our colleagues with you, if you can call it that , well, colleagues of solovyov and skabieva, to be more precise, who called on the radio to destroy all their essentially compatriots, just a little bit of a different ethnic origin called, they were all found and put on all these radios

it seems to have been called a thousand hills on the radio. so what about that too, by the way, you have to think about this radio announcer of thousands of hillbillies from moscow, that putin still has billions of dollars there and he can change his face there , change shoigu's face, change medvedev's gender, make friends with him and go to argentina to live a happy family life sooner, and solovyov hardly has so many opportunities, well, solovyov is of jewish origin, he is already at the beginning of the war of invasion began to remind that he was a poor, unfortunate jew, what was wrong with him. but if there is a case of the international tribunal in gas, he will not be able to use it, because the law of return does not apply, it does not extend to people against whom criminal proceedings have been initiated introduction, this is such a wise law , it says that if you want, if you did not remember your jewish identity, and then you want to use it to avoid criminal prosecution, you must first stay away, and then come, so solovyov does not have yes, not much opportunity, despite the fact that he has

a jewish... origin there, they have to remember that too, it does not save in such a situation, no, these are the trends in the world here, you go the economist conducted survey and 20, 20 respondents aged 18-29 believe that the holocaust is a myth, it will not be possible to cancel the holocaust like this, 20% of america is young people from 18 to 29, the fact that the world is somehow god's will, education, i think that is the issue. this is a question of social classes, and this is again a question of avoiding responsibility , the united states is responsible for the holocaust, when it turned back ships with jews who wanted to escape, and these ships returned to europe, where people were then burned, is this responsibility, or it's just a reluctance to increase migration risks, in the language of our friend president donald trump, well that's a good question, really, and of course in

a society like this, where on the one hand there's... absolute abhorrence of any such xenophobic things, it's getting stronger with the hands of luck, and on the other hand, you understand that in north america there in the 1930s and 1940s, the jews also faced discrimination, for whatever reason, it’s just that we live in a different time, and therefore to talk about the fact that now the entire american society would like to take responsibility to believe that all this did not happen. it's easier to live you see, if you declare someone else's crime, especially your responsibility , to be fiction, it is much easier to live that way, and therefore, by the way, i think that even after the war, we will have to go through a difficult conversation about what the problems were in ukrainian society, in historical, to the extent that we can take responsibility for the crimes and sins of the past, in order to place this responsibility morally for those crimes and

sins that were committed against ukrainians. made during these centuries of the existence of the ukrainian nation, because you understand, you are only when you are morally clean, you can remind others of responsibility, and we have yet to experience this, as you understand, in various dialogues, mr. vitaly, thank you for today's conversation, thank you for saturday's political club, thank you to our viewers for being with us, vitaly portnikov , lesya vakulyuk, saturday political club.