in the coming weeks, some members of the government will visit us here, i will not rush ahead with the disclosure of information that has not yet been made public, but we already have an agenda for this year, we ended last year on a positive note in principle, and as far as defense cooperation is concerned, and trade and economic, we are growing, of course not everything goes into the public space and... first of all, this concerns the request from ankara not to reveal all directions in the public space, because in a certain way, as vankari believes, it narrows their a foreign policy maneuver, but cooperation is going on, and those areas that i have already publicly spoken about and those areas that will be announced by the relevant leaders, who are the ones who functioned , and there are certain areas of their responsibility that we will have this year, i think are serious. .. moves that

will benefit both the defense capability and the strengthening of the economic potential of the god-state. thank you, mr. vasyl. vasyl bodner, ambassador of ukraine to the republic of turkey, was in touch with us. we'll be back in just a few minutes, stay tuned by us there are discounts on aquamaris. 15% in pharmacies plantain pam and savings. there are 15% discounts on strength detox at psyllium pam and oskad pharmacies. separate consents of the sapsan unmanned aircraft complexes of the state special service of transport. we appeal to the viewers of the tv channel to join in the fundraising of the crown and technical equipment for our friends. thank you, glory to ukraine,

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turn on and turn on, verdict with serhiy rudenko, every weekday from 8 to 10 pm at espresso. we continue the saturday political club program, les vakulyuk, vitaly portnikov, thank you, dear friends, for being with us, for being at espresso. let's start the conversation now with january 27, which is the international day of remembrance for the victims of the holocaust, humanity experienced such a terrible tragedy in... in the last century, and in the 21st century somehow they did not draw conclusions from all that, mr. vitaly, in your family there is anyone hurt? well, of course, my family suffered, it's just such a thing, you can't say that someone in the family suffered, you can say that someone in the family survived, it's a completely different story with the holocaust, there that's just the way it is, it seems.

because the parents of my grandparents, my grandmother's sister on my father's side, with a baby and with a husband, this martyrology can be continued for quite a long time, and some died in my grandmother's grave, others died in different places in ukraine, it was this famous terrible the holocaust from... bullets, you understand, because if the jews were over there in poland, in lithuania, they were herded into constitutional camps, created ghettos, then exterminated them, then in ukraine, when the nazis came, they simply shot the population, they had no ideas the creation of ghettos here on most of the territory of our country, so this is right here in western ukraine, here there were , you know, ghettos that turned into camps, because they were different forms of destruction, different forms of territory management, but i think that it is necessary to look at it more globally. so that we

understand what is happening now, because it is very strongly connected with the russian-ukrainian war, but in the history of anti-semitism as such, there were two eras. the first era is associated with the time of faith, the era of faith in human history, when, in principle, a person's identity was determined by his faith, and the obvious deep chasm between christianity and judaism, to a certain extent the complex relationship, not so complex between islam and judaism, led to such mutual rejection, to such tragedies of the expulsion of the jewish population from... the piranean peninsula, but on the other hand , as you understand, people who became christians or muslims, as a rule , avoided persecution, they became an organic part of the societies in which they lived, also not without suspicion that it was them made only externally, but we know that

a large part of the population of spain, portugal, it is not known how huge, has jewish ethnic roots, this is the part of people who decided not to leave, but to accept. christianity, we don't even imagine their number in these times, but it was exactly such a situation when jews lived their lives, in their communities, they did not interfere in the lives of christians, christians did not try to interfere in their lives, these were parallel worlds with very complex relationships, but parallel, but with extermination, pogroms, problems, but not total, total some situations with extermination happened there episodically in history. europe, let's say, like the pogroms of bohdan khmelnytskyi, let's say in ukraine , when almost all ukrainian jews were exterminated, this is such a great example of such total extermination before the holocaust, that's why there before hitler, bohdan khmelnytskyi was such a main negative character in jewish mythology, ugh, but on the other hand

, khmelnytskyi destroyed all the greek catholic priests during his time uprising, it was also not aimed exclusively at the jews, it was not orthodox, it was an orthodox uprising, so in the end ukraine was in arms. the wonderful man of the orthodox tsar of moscow, well, this is a separate story, i think we will have to deal with the legacy of bohdan khmelnytsky over time, not now, with the great french revolution, a completely different era began, well, when it was determined that the european population, at least it has equal rights, not religion, but citizenships have, well, status, this also happened slowly, you know are famous there. stories about there about german patriots of jewish origin who fought against the french invaders, being members of the senates of their cities, heads of regional authorities, such as the father of the great german poet heinrich heine, and when the germans returned, they were expelled from all

these institutions, because according to german laws they were not jews, not christians, they could not sit there, the french occupiers gave them the opportunity to choose and fight with them, but... the germans, their own leaders, whom they persisted and returned, they immediately returned them to their place, behind the fence, but in the end it ended with the complete triumph of equality in europe, the last was russia, as always, which kept the jews within the limits of settlement until 1917 and created a kind of ghettos in our territories of ukraine, poland, belarus, and lithuania. the russians never allowed a single jew to live in their territories, only merchants of the first guild there. and to someone else with special permission, that is, why is that, well, what are not pure people of the wrong faith, i remind you again orthodox empire, so when russians say that ukrainians and belarusians are one people, you can ask them the following question: if the people

are one, why could jews live among ukrainians and belarusians, but not among great russians, what kind of one people is this, what one can communicate with impure believers, and the other cannot. it was already absolutely clear , i would say, the separation, that the russians, the great russians, they are like that, they are all really orthodox, and that's it, you know, but wait, then the russians started talking about how they cleansed the world of nazism, well it is, it is there was already the next yes, but i just want to say something else, after all, that we returned to the holocaust, by and large the real competition began, well, that is, people of jewish origin, not necessarily religious, very often secular, as well as christians, began to live one life with one's... neighbors, and as it turned out, if the period of existence within the framework of religious such inter-religious separation continued in europe for about 1,500 years and did not lead to the disappearance of jews in europe, then the period of existence within the framework of equality continued it is considered from 1789 to 1943,

how many is that? well, about 250 years, 250 years, well , it turns out that the european peoples are not at all... only the germans could not stand this competition and decided to simply physically get rid of those whom they considered competitors, well, such a continental decision, ugh, that was it the holocaust, a terrible absolute thing, because... basically this is a conditional religious division that almost didn't exist anymore, because you understand that there the jews in germany, why is it a big shock, considered themselves germans, that they were part of the political nation, the patriots of germany, the jews of france considered themselves patriots of france, the jews of poland, for the most part, at least there in this, i would say the non-religious part of the population, which was already huge, were, the patriots of poland, all these people were symbols of cultural and scientific achievements, they spoke in poland, for example,

it was not important that people were jews, remember, when sarkozy became the president of france not so long ago, all the russian publications said that he was half- jew, half-hungarian, and the french in general it was not even mentioned, you see, in principle, it is always mentioned in russia, here is the current minister of defense of great britain, he is a jew, where do we learn about this, not from the guardian newspaper at all, but from some russian telegram channel, it always bothers them , uh, it stopped being interesting in europe a long time ago, because... they think about the interests of political nations, you see that putin every time he mentions zelensky, uh, he immediately mentions his

jewish origin, what for ukrainians are not even remembered at all, it is necessary in particular, you know, this and this and this , this is the question of the victory over nazism, so in this respect it is an important moment when the european peoples moved away from the second world war a little, understood what happened, uh, in principle, the europeans themselves there were almost no jews anymore, because you ... understand that these communities, which remained ten thousand people in each country, somewhere more, somewhere less, these are communities of a few million that existed before the second world war, by and large jews were another european people destroyed by their neighbors, just a large nation, in a million people, it all disappeared, jews after the holocaust exist in the form of a completely different, i would say, group of communities, one of these is the israelis in the state, the other is american jews, european jews are rather such a memorial complex , this is the people in the cemeteries, well, if

you can call it the people at all, this is a small group of communities in the cemeteries, which are completely, by the way, these communities, which are in different countries , they are completely integrated into the life of their communities, and by and large now we are with you we observe the same with the ukrainian jews, who have always been part of the russian and then the imperial soviet discourse, but precisely because... as an independent state of all civilizational things has existed for 30 years, the jews of ukraine are becoming ukrainian jews literally, in terms of integration into society, in terms of language , in terms of compliance with the understanding of how this country is developing, this is a small community, but it is ukrainian, and people who are close to these people, as a rule, do not remember much about their jewish origin, as i already said that poles or hungarians don't remember about it, relatively speaking? or the french about people, but how many years have passed since the holocaust,

about 80, 80, yes, the quality of the second world war, and i keep trying to say about this , that look, the second world war is over, people were in full swing, uh, and even in the soviet union they said that if there was no war, at some point all this is in the generation of people, they will die, they died, and people came who began to say that... we can repeat, uh, this is a change of discourse, when for the generation that remembers that is disappearing such is war, there are always those who say that war is a walk, the continuation of politics by other means, all the things that people who start a war always say, and it happened, and not only in russia, but i would say in the world, just a democratic world , looks at values ​​differently, but wherever these values ​​are not there, they immediately decided that they can defend it with war. now with the holocaust , almost the same thing happened: generations have come who do not feel the responsibility

of their parents went for the holocaust, because you understand, if there 40 years ago i will go to anti-israel demonstration, even with any good intentions, i will remember that maybe my father or myself, here i was here on this street, sitting in this apartment, and my neighbor was taken to the constables with a child . to whom i gave a piece of candy yesterday, and what did i do? i didn't do anything, i lived my life, went to work, told my wife: oh, you know hsieh from... the genius was taken away and continued to drink tea with chocolate, i feel bad, i feel, even if not responsibility, then something in there is me, it seems that i am not at all why didn't i take part, if god forbid i took it, or my relatives took it, i had someone who served somewhere in the administration, not necessarily the ss, the regime will change, then i'm already in such a state that

it's better i just don't get close to it, but when i'm... 25 years old, uh, and especially if i'm an american student, or a french one, and i think that the unfortunate palestinian people feel the same way that the jews did during world war ii, except that i might just be anti-semitic , this is a normal condition for many people, as you know, xenophobia, but i could never legally express it, because i understand that speaking out legally against anti-semitism is an insult, just like it 's legal to run around... paris or new york and shout i don't like sexual minorities and i'll be looked at as an idiot , like a boldor from the middle ages, why do i need this, but to defend the palestinians, no one will say that i am anti-semitic, because i am simply defending the poor palestinian children, from the russian state, there is nothing to attack the jews, as any will tell you antisemite, i have jewish friend, i have a jewish friend, i

'm here at the demonstration not because i don't like jews, just for israel to stop the genocide, and that's an expression of anti-semitism when a person... by and large doesn't even try to understand a situation that took place, but she finally has the opportunity to express her feelings without fear of being, you know, called an anti-semite, a xenophobe and so on and so forth, and this is also by and large the end of the era of this responsibility for the past, and i will tell you honestly, analyzing all that. me to you, all this, me i can now explain to you why it was always important for me to have a ukrainian state, so that you understand why i dreamed of a ukrainian state, i looked at my classmates when i was a child, we lived in the same state in the soviet union, this soviet union was an anti-semitic state , i knew it perfectly well, i had no doubts, but i had such an inner,

inner feeling that there was a ship beyond the borders of this idiotic state, so to speak, i didn't even know , as it is real looks, but for me it was just like some kind of world where there is a government, state, army, special services, courts, and all this is to protect me, here i am in this state, which in principle discriminates against me , who considers me by and large a stranger, who treats me with... i am like a small child, everyone is in a stranger's family, well, practically, but my parents are there, they are for me, they, you know, how small the child says, my father will come, she tells the adults there, some children who insult her in the yard, my father will come and intercede for me, feel yourself, the child may not even have a father, he may be an orphan, he will invent a father for himself, but i

was no longer an orphan, and i had this state, and i thought, what about these people who lived in touch. in 948 they were orphans, what could they say? nothing, they could only think, dream about something, but nothing, the father was not there when you were insulted by these adults, er, bad boys, you could not say anything to them, you looked at them with helpless eyes, and here i was looking at my classmates who were ukrainians, and who did not really have their own state, who could be ridiculed by anyone there, if not in ukraine, then in any republic outside of ukraine, without even realizing it, but i am constantly faced with situations when russians do not even understand liberal views, what is ukrainophobia, until now, what was it, oh, you are a villager, you speak a rural language, they used to come to kyiv in front of me, they tried to switch to russian, to fix something for themselves, they had nothing to fix, they were just ukrainians, and they had to destroy it in themselves so that they would not be looked at as

some idiots, i always thought that if we have this ship. and the ukrainians are standing here on the deck, but their ship is captured by a group of pirates, they must be driven out of here, and that is why for me, strangely enough, this whole story with the holocaust and with you with this injustice, and with this unfair attitude of our neighbors to us, was one big signpost to ukrainian independence, because i saw this justice, no wonder, when on the 24th. in august 1991 , the independence of ukraine was proclaimed, i breathed a sigh of relief for one reason, because i believed that there was something with me personally, something with me, it was a dream, true, but i believed that it was mine. nothing much changes in life anyway, but i looked at all these people in the meeting hall of the verkhovna rada, they were ukrainians, 99% of them, i know that no one will

humiliate them anymore, so they will always be able to now, wherever they are here or in another country, they will be able, when they insult and humiliate someone, to remember that there is, here they will come, my parents will come and tell you everything, that you should not insult me, i am not small. i have grown-ups, and this is an incredible absolute feeling, which , to a large extent, ukrainians were deprived of like air, you know, if there is no air, there is no, you breathe fig knows what, and then you climb to some mountain top, let it be on i drive, and you feel how clean the air is, and if you have never breathed it, and this, too , by and large, should... explain what is happening in general, and by the way, i want to remind you that ukrainians, like jews , have survived destruction, they survived the famine, precisely because there was no state that would have them

to protect, here is this ukrainian peasant , he could not look at anyone, he will protect me, because the enemy army came, surrounded his house and the commoner did not let him eat, this is the same example, very often ukrainians, when it comes to the holocaust and about the holodomor, they say, but ukraine commemorates. a victim of the holocaust, but israel did not recognize the holodomor as genocide? israel did not recognize the holodomor as a genocide because of its specific attitude to the holocaust itself. ugh. what was always meant by the israeli approach. by the way, i always believed that the holodomor must be recognized as genocide, the genocide of the armenian people must be recognized. israel does not do this, because it means that when there was a famine, ukrainians, the nation, as an ethnic target, could survive in other places than the surrounded zones, so relatively speaking, you were starving in

central ukraine, ugh, and my the family that lived in this central ukraine was actually witnesses, and barely survived in this central ukraine, although it was a jewish family, but if you lived in kyiv or in the dnipro or in kharkiv, no one ran after you and shouted that you are ukrainian and did not take your bread from you under these conditions, on the contrary. conditionally, this is the idea of ​​the holodomor, that ukrainian peasants took bread to feed formally ukrainian workers in the cities, because it was such a dictatorship, cynical, well, in fact, they sold it abroad, but how was it all explained? something similar is happening with the armenian genocide, which is also strange, because the armenians remained to live in turkey, they were exterminated in large numbers, they emigrated almost all of them, but in... in turkey, there are still, as you know, armenian communities, they are few, you try to find them, but they are there, and there is such a stereotype that they do not exist in principle and that

the turkish language does not talk about it and it does not remember, for myself, when i was first turkish, i went to a store, i collect, when there were cds, i collected jewish folk music, i went to a store to buy music of turkish jews. and here i see that next to this disc of music of turkish jews there is music of turkish armenians, and for me it there was a certain breaking of stereotypes, because i had no idea that armenians existed in turkish, and only after i became interested in it, when i learned about the death of turkish journalist grant dink of armenian descent, i realized that it is a much more complicated process, if you were a jew, you basically had no chance of surviving the holocaust, and not only a jew, you... remember that if ukrainians, why are people given the title of the righteous of the world, if a ukrainian hid a jew and they found him, they shot him and this ukrainian and his members

families, that's why i think these people, they 're just saints, here you are, let 's put ourselves in their shoes, here you have to hide someone, and you think that you are responsible not only for your life, but for the life your little baby, you would start doing that, you would think 300,00 times, right? yes, it is a difficult choice, it is a difficult choice, if you make such a choice, it is not at all clear what kind of human qualities you have, those may not be available to us, but what i am talking about is that these are such cases, this hunting was, as on a beast like a beast, and that is why the holocaust has an exclusive character, exclusively in this regard for israel, although i believe, my point of view, if i were a member of the knesset, i would believe that genocides are aimed at destroying national consciousness the physical existence of other peoples must also be recognized, and this, in principle, corresponds to the definition of genocide, which, as you know, was also

created by a lawyer of jewish origin, mr. lemkin, who was born here in lviv, literally next to our studio, i also talk a lot about what i say that all this happened here in these lands, one way or another, and the holocaust and the pogroms, and the legal definition of what the holocaust is, all of this in one knot, so again, i'm not going to say that this is the right approach, simply because... i thought it was the wrong approach, i always told my israeli friends that it was the wrong approach, but we have to understand why it is, the ukrainian had a conditional chance to save himself, just not because he could come to the city and survive there, no, i used to come and die in the city, it’s just that, well, it happened that they didn’t just let me out, i i mean, if you broke out, you might simply not have made it, but simply, if you lived there and were a ukrainian, that's all you could

hope for... for survival, well, that is, you simply weren't starving, with the holocaust, the situation was different, much more complicated, and this was the first situation of total, total destruction of a people, by the way, hitler, as you know, relied on the genocides in armenia, he said that no one remembers the armenian genocide, and therefore, if we destroy everyone jews, everyone will forget about it too, but he is also not a man, he was also in a stereotypical understanding, no matter how strange the armenian genocide sounds, because the armenian genocide was primarily a political, political genocide. they destroyed a huge number of people, their resettlement campaign and so on, but they could not get to everyone, and there was no such absolute goal for them, because they wanted to destroy the arvirmen not just as a nation, as a national movement, the young turks, as national movement, which in their opinion threatened the empire, by the way, something similar happened during the second world war, when resettlement led to physical deaths and to the destruction of entire

centers of life. of the soviet union , what happened to the crimean tatars, and to the peoples of the caucasus, and to the peoples of the volga region, these were signs of genocide, because i say people were resettled to other places, how many people died on the way, the vistula operation, you see, these were all there was a continuation of this practice, as you understand, so, and by and large we also have to understand that, and something that could not be talked about on the day of... the memory of the victims of the holocaust, but maybe we should say it , that the eviction of germans from those territories which went to the soviet union and poland, other countries also already had signs of genocide , can you imagine how many people did not make it, and these were just ordinary ones, they could have been german children, uh, of course, this is again the question of how people are responsible for the atrocities of their own state and power with their own lives, but simply these practices, we thought that they would end with the second world war, and by and large the very creation of the state

of israel was also a guilty plea, although the state of israel was created, strangely enough for other people, for those who escaped from the holocaust, because from the beginning he did not believe in the possibility of survival in europe, the zionist leaders, who were, as you understand, marginal in the jewish political movement, always, always, they were considered some kind of strange people, because the majority of people wanted to live here, and when they came and told their compatriots from germany, poland , where else do you need to go... to palestine, you will not survive here, everyone told them, listen, we are germans, well, you want to play with what you have here a national state in palestine, well, be it please, we are ready to help, but don't touch us, and only some small groups of people, they really listened to it, they were not many in number, but they were the people who survived, so there were waves of migration there related to this moving, this is also a whole

story. when i am in tel aviv and walk along dzengov street, i remember being told that the old residents of the city, that this street all spoke german, because they were german jews who fled from hitler, not from a good life , they did not want for by and large there to palestine, because it was absolutely some distant civilization from them, but they survived, i was once in hamburg at an exhibition dedicated to the great german poet elsa lasker schurer, she was. one of the few jewish german intellectuals of jewish origin who survived, because she decided that she believed, not being a zionist, being a brilliant german poet, so, you know, german, so decadent, moved to palestine and there were such two pictures at once, which showed how everything changed, you know, like that yes...