the eastern regions of turkey and the destabilization is taking place mainly from the territory of northern northern syria, especially this applies to the region controlled by the local kurds, the so-called ypg or the syrian democratic forces are extremely irritating to ankara and there have already been several attempts to launch another attack on this syrian kurdish enclave there in syria, and this is one of those ... a stumbling block in possible communication with the assad regime, since already last year there were certain such public discussions about the need to restore contacts between ankara and damascus, but so far this direction has not taken place, that is, no visits have taken place, although with the mediation of russia, you know, there is also the astana process, and this is mainly at the level of either development or the ministry of foreign affairs, such communication to a certain extent is happening, but... assad insists on the withdrawal of turkish

troops from the territory of syria, in return, turkey insists on the creation of a 30-kilometer security zone and is not going to withdraw its troops until the problem of what they consider the threat of kurdish separatism specifically from the territory of syria. well, here is the question that should have been the first, actually, les, what is happening today between ankara and kyiv, mr. vasyl? an intense dialogue is ongoing between ankara and kyiv, and so that we have no illusions. with regard to contacts from ankara with other capitals that annoy us here, i.e. iran and russia, let's remember that representatives of the united states are also here quite often, linkin was recently, the head of foreign affairs was here just a few days ago office in britain, was the prime minister from italy, and our dialogue is also developing, we are ... we are currently planning several

important events, in the coming weeks some members of the government will visit us here, i will not rush ahead with the disclosure of information that has not yet been made public, but we have already formed agenda for this year, in principle, we finished last year on a positive note, and as far as defense cooperation and trade and economic cooperation are concerned, we are growing, of course not everything works out. to the public space and primarily this concerns requests from ankara, not to reveal all directions in the public space, because this in a certain way, as vankari believes, narrows their foreign policy maneuver, but cooperation is ongoing, both those directions that i have already spoken about publicly, and those directions that will be announced by the relevant leaders, who the functions of which have certain directions if their responsibility, then we... will have this

year, i believe, serious changes that will benefit both the defense capability and the strengthening of bogsh's economic potential. thank you, mr. vasyl, vasyl bodnar, ambassador of ukraine in the republic of turkey, we were in touch, we will be back in just a few minutes, stay with us. events, events that are happening right now and affect our lives. of course, the news feed reports on them. however, it is not enough to know what is happening, it is necessary to understand. antin borkovskii and invited experts soberly assess events, analyze them, modeling our future, every saturday at 1:10 p.m., with a repeat on sunday at 10:10 a.m. studio zahid with anton borkovsky at espresso. we continue the program of saturday polytlub le valuk vitaly portnikov. thank you, dear friends, for being with us, for being at espresso.

let's start the conversation now with january 27, which is the international day of remembrance for the victims of the holocaust, humanity experienced such a terrible tragedy in the last century, and in the 21st century it somehow did not draw conclusions from all that, mr. vitaly, there is someone in your family, who was hurt well, of course, my family suffered, it's just such a thing, you can't say that... someone in the family suffered, you can say that someone in the family survived, it's a completely different story with the holocaust, there only this is the way this question looks, because my parents, grandparents, sisters, my grandmother on my father's side, with her baby, with her husband, this can be continued.

martyrologist for quite a long time, and some died in bavynoy yer, others died in various places in ukraine, this was the famous terrible holocaust by bullets. you understand, because if the jews were over there in poland, in lithuania, they were herded into constitutional camps, created ghettos, and then exterminated them, then in ukraine, when the nazis came, they simply shot the population, they had no idea the creation of ghettos here on most of the territory of our country, so it is right here in western ukraine, here there were, you know , ghettos that turned into camps, because they were different forms of destruction, different forms of territory management, but i think that it is necessary to look at it more globally, in principle, so that we understand what is happening. now, because it is very strongly connected with the russian-ukrainian war as well, but in the history of anti-semitism as such there were two eras. the first era is associated with the time of faith, the era of faith in human history,

when, in principle, a person's identity was determined by his faith, and a deep chasm between christianity and judaism is obvious. to some extent the complicated relationship, not so complicated between islam and judaism, led to such mutual rejection, to such tragedies of the expulsion of the jewish population from the iberian peninsula, but on the other hand, as you understand, people who became christians or muslims, they as as a rule , they avoided persecution, they became an organic part of the societies in which they lived, also not without suspicions that it was them made only externally, but we know that a large part of the population of spain, portugal, it is not known how huge , has jewish ethnic roots, this is the part of people who decided not to leave, but to accept christianity, we do not even imagine their number in these times, but this was exactly the situation when the jews lived their lives in

their communities, they did not interfere in the lives of christians, christians did not try to interfere in their lives, they were parallel worlds with very complicated relations, but parallel. but with extermination, pogroms, problems, but no total, total, some situations with extermination happened there episodically in the history of europe, let's say, like the pogroms of bohdan khmelnytskyi, let's say in ukraine, when almost all ukrainian jews were exterminated, this is such a great example of such total extermination before the holocaust, so there before hitler bohdan khmelnytskyi was such a main negative character in jewish, even mythology, ugh, but on the other hand, ban khmelnitsky. destroys all the greek-catholic priests during his rebellion, it was not aimed exclusively at the jews either, it was not orthodox, this was an orthodox uprising, so in the end ukraine ended up in the arms of a wonderful man, the orthodox tsar of moscow, well, this is a separate story, i think we will have to

deal with the legacy of bohdan khmelnytsky over time, not now, with the great french the revolution , a completely different era began, ugh, when it was determined that... the european population , at least, they have equal rights, not religion, but citizenship, they have, ugh, status, this also happened slowly, there are famous stories about german patriots of jewish origin, who fought against the french invaders, being members of the senates of their cities, heads of regional authorities, such as the father of the great german poet heinrich heine, and when the germans returned, they were expelled from... all these institutions, they were not according to german laws, jews, not christians, they could not sit there, the french occupiers gave them the opportunity to choose and fight with them, and the germans, their own leaders, whom they defended and returned, immediately returned them

in its place, behind the fence, but in the end it ended with a complete triumph of equality in europe, the last was russia, as usual, which kept the jews within the limits of settlement until 1917 and... there is a kind of ghetto in our territories of ukraine , poland, belarus, lithuania. the russians have never allowed any jews to live on their territories, only merchants of the first guild and others with special permission, that is, there are unclean people of the wrong faith, this is the orthodox empire, i remind you again, so when the russians say that ukrainians and belarusians are one people, you can ask them such a question, if the people are one, why could you live among... but not among the great russians, what kind of one people is this, that alone you can communicate with impure people , and the others can’t, it was already absolutely clear, i would say, the division, that the russians, the great russians, they are like that

, they are all really orthodox, and that’s it, you know, but wait, then the russians started talking about how they cleansed the world of nazism, well , it is, it was already the next yes, but i want just to say something else, after all, why after the holocaust, by and large , real competition began, well, that is, people of jewish origin, not necessarily religious, very often swedish, like christians, began to live the same life with their neighbors, and that's how you ... if the period of existence within the framework of religious such inter-religious separation continued in europe for about 1,500 years and did not lead to the disappearance of jews in europe, then the period before this existence within the framework of equality continued, it is considered from 1789 to 19403 that is how many, well, about 250 years, but it turns out that the european peoples are not only germans. could not stand this competition, they decided to simply get rid of those whom they considered competitors, just physically, well, such a continental

solution, ugh, that was the holocaust, a terrible absolute thing, because in principle, this is a conditional religious division, which almost did not exist anymore , because you understand that there the jews in germany, why is it not a big shock, considered themselves germans, that they were part of the political nation, patriots of germany, the jews there of france considered themselves patriots of france, the jews of poland, for the most part at least there... in this, i would say, non-religious part of the population, which was already huge, were patriots of poland, all these people were symbols of their cultural and scientific achievements, of course, like the great polish poet julian tuwim or there is the great german poet heinrich heinery, or there are all these famous german writers, poets and musicians and artists , there is imre kalman, or there is the french prime minister, edgar heriot. well, that is, these were just people who will be a part of this life, i

'm not going to mention all of them just now surnames and all this, because it looks strange again, it was not important for these people that they were jews, remember, when sarkozy became the president of france not so long ago, all the russian publications said that he was half-jewish, half-hungarian, and the french did not even mention it at all, you see, in principle , it is always mentioned in russia, here is the current defense minister of great britain, he is a jew about... where do we learn about this, not at all from the guardian newspaper, but from some of the russian telegram channel, they are forever fooled by it, ugh, v it stopped being interesting for europe a long time ago, because they think about the interests of political nations, you see that every time putin mentions zelensky, he immediately mentions his jewish origin, something that ukrainians don't even remember at all , you need to know this specifically, this is also this one, this is the question of victory over nazism, so in this regard it is... an important moment when the european peoples moved away from the second world war a little, understood what

happened, huh , in principle the most european there were almost no jews anymore, because you understand that here are these communities that remained ten thousand people in each country, somewhere more, somewhere less, these are communities of a few million that existed before the second world war, by and large the jews were another the european nation, the destroyed neighbors, simply a great nation of a million people. it all disappeared, the jews after the holocaust exist in the form of a completely different, i would say, group of communities, one of these is the israelis in the state, the other is the american jews, the european jews - it is rather such a memorial complex, it is the people in the cemeteries, well, if you can call it the people at all, it is a small group of communities in the cemeteries, which are completely by the way, these communities, which are in different countries, they are fully integrated into the life of their communities. and by and large, we are now observing the same thing with ukrainian jews, who have always been part

of the russian and then the imperial soviet discourse, but precisely because ukraine, as an independent state of all things civilized , has existed for 30 years, the jews of ukraine become ukrainian jews, literally, in the plan integration into society, in terms of language, in terms of compliance with the understanding of how this country is developing, it is a small community, but it is ukrainian. and the people who are close to these people, as a rule, do not remember much about their jewish origin, as i said, just as the poles or the hungarians or the french do not remember it, relatively speaking, about people, but how long has it been years since the holocaust, about 80, 80, so the quality of the second world war, and i keep trying to say about it, look, the second world war ended, people were in full swing. ugh , and even in the soviet union they said, if there had been no war, at some point all this is in the generation of people, they will die, they died, and

people came who began to say that we can repeat it, ugh, this is a change of discourse when a generation dies , which remembers what war is, there are always those who say that war is a walk, the continuation of politics by other means, all the things that people who start war always say, and it happened. and not only in russia, but i would say in the world, they just look at the democratic world differently values, but everywhere where these values ​​are not there, they immediately decided that it is possible to defend it with war, now with the holocaust it happened... it is practically the same. generations have arrived that do not feel the responsibility of their jewish parents for the holocaust. because you see, if i go to an anti-israel demonstration there 40 years ago, even with any good intentions there, i will remember that maybe my father, or myself, here i was here on this street, sat in

this apartment, and my neighbor was being taken to the concentration camp with her three-year-old child, who yesterday gave what was i doing i didn't do anything, i lived my life, went to work, told my wife, oh, you know, hesya from genius was taken away, and continued to drink tea with chocolate, i'm uncomfortable, i feel, even if not responsibility, then something i have, it seems that i did not participate in anything at all, if god forbid i took, or my relatives took, someone served me somewhere in the admin. so i'm already in some kind of state that i'd rather not just get close to it, but when i'm 25 years old, yeah, and especially since i'm american student or french and i think the unfortunate palestinian people feel the

same as the jews during world war ii, except i might just be anti-semitic, well normal. well, a lot of people, as you know , are xenophobic, but i could never legally express it, because i understand that speaking out legally against anti-semitism is about the same as legally running around paris or new york and yelling at me like sexual minorities, well , they will look at me like an idiot, like bovdor z the middle ages, why do i need this, but to defend the palestinians, no one will say that i am anti-semitic, because i simply protect the poor palestinian children from a racist state, and i have nothing against jews, as with ... anyone tells you antisem i have a jewish friend i have a jewish friend i'm here at the demonstration not because i don't like jews just for israel to stop the genocide and this is an expression of antisemitism when a person by and large doesn't even try to understand the situation , which took place, but finally has the opportunity to express her feelings without fearing that she will, you know,

be declared an anti-semite, a xenophobe and so on and so on, and this... well, by and large , the era of this responsibility for the past is over and i'll be honest with you les, but analyzing everything well, i can explain all this to you now, why it was always important for me to have a ukrainian state, if you understand why i dreamed of a ukrainian state, i looked at my classmates when i was a child, we lived in one state in the soviet union, this soviet union was antisem state, i knew it very well, i had no doubts, but i had such an inner, inner feeling that there was a ship, relatively speaking, beyond the borders of this idiotic state, i didn't even know what it really looked like, but for me, it was just like some kind of world where there is a government,

a state, an army, special services, courts, and all this is to protect me. ugh, here i am in this state, which in principle discriminates against me, which considers me to be a stranger, which treats me with a glance, here i am like a little child, everyone is in someone else's family, well, practically, but my parents are there, they are there for me, they know how a little child says, my father will come, she tells the adults there, some children there, who are the courts are insulting, my father will come and intercede for me, take heart. the child may not even have a father, he may be an orphan , he will then invent a father for himself, but i was no longer an orphan, and i had this state, and i thought, but these people who lived before 1948, they were orphans, what could they say nothing, they could only think, dream about something, but nothing, the father was not there, when you were insulted by these adult and bad boys, you

could not say anything to them, you looked at them with helpless eyes, and here i was looking at my classmates who were ukrainians. who didn't really have their own state, whom anyone can make fun of there, if not in ukraine, then in any republic beyond its borders, without even realizing it, but i am constantly faced with situations when russians do not even understand liberal views, what is ukrainophobia until now, that she was, oh, you are a villager, you speak this village language, they came to kyiv in front of my eyes, tried to switch to russian, to fix something for themselves, they had nothing to fix, they were just ukrainians. and they had to destroy it in themselves so that they would not be looked at as some idiots. and i always thought that if we have this ship, ukrainians are here. are standing on the deck, but their ship is captured by a group of pirates, they need to be driven out of here, and therefore for me, strangely enough , this whole story with the holocaust and you

with this injustice and with this unfair attitude of our neighbors towards us, was one big signpost to ukrainian independence, because i saw this justice, no wonder, when on august 24, 1990... the first year , the independence of ukraine was proclaimed, i sighed with relief for one reason, because i thought that there was something personally with me, something in me, it was a dream, it's true, but i thought that nothing much changed in my life anyway, but i looked at all these people in the hall meetings of the verkhovna rada, they were ukrainians, 99%, i think, no one will humiliate them anymore, then they will always be able to now, wherever they are, here or in another country. they will be able, when someone is insulted and humiliated, to remember that there are, here they will come, my parents will come, and they will tell you that there is no need to insult me, i am not

small, i have adults, and this is an absolutely incredible feeling, which, which ukrainians, by and large, were deprived of like air, you know, if there is no air, there is no air, you breathe fig knows what, and then you rise on some mountain. the top, let it be on the governa, and you feel how clean the air is, and if you have never breathed it, and this, too, by and large , should explain what is happening in general, and by the way, i want to remind you that ukrainians, like jews survived eras of destruction, they survived the holodomor, precisely because there was no state to protect them, this is a ukrainian peasant, he could not look at anyone to protect me, because it was an enemy army that had passed and stood around his house. and they just didn't let him eat, that's it the very example, very often ukrainians , when it comes to the holocaust and the holodomor , say that ukraine honors the victims of the holocaust,

but israel did not recognize the holodomor as genocide, israel did not recognize the holodomor as genocide due to a specific attitude towards the holocaust itself, ugh , which was always meant by the israeli approach, i, by the way, always believed that it is necessary to recognize... the holodomor as genocide, the genocide of the armenian people must be recognized. israel does not do this because it means that when the famine occurred, ukrainians, as a nation, as an ethnic target, could survive in other places, except for the surrounded zones, so relatively speaking, you were starving in central ukraine, ugh, and my family, who lived in this central ukraine, were actually witnesses and barely survived in this central ukraine, although it was a jewish family. but if you lived in kyiv or in the dnipro or in kharkiv, no one ran after you and shouted that you were ukrainian and did not take your bread from you under these conditions, on the contrary, conditionally, this

is the idea of ​​the holodomor that ukrainian peasants they took away bread to feed formally ukrainian workers in the cities, because it was such a dictatorship, cynical, well, in fact , they sold it abroad, but, as it was all explained, something similar happened with the armenian genocide, which is also strange, because the armenians remained to live in turkey , they were exterminated in large numbers , almost all of them emigrated, but there are still, as you know, armenian communities in turkey, they are few, you try to find them, but they are there, and there is such a stereotype that they do not exist in principle and that turkey is about it doesn't say, it doesn't remembers for myself, when i was in turkey for the first time, i went into a store, i... i collect, when there were cds, i collected, jewish folk music, i went into a store to buy turkish jewish music,

and here i see that next to this disc of music of turkish jews is the music of turkish armenians, and for me it was to some extent the destruction of stereotypes, because i had no idea that armenians existed in turkish, and i only became interested in it later, when i learned about the death of a turkish journalist grant dink of armenian origin. that is a lot a more complicated process, if you were a jew, you basically had no chance of surviving the holocaust, and not only a jew, but you remember that if ukrainians, why are people given the title of the righteous of the world, if a ukrainian hid a jew and they found him, they also shot this ukrainian and members of his family, that's why i think that these people, they are just saints, well , here you are, let's put ourselves in their place, you have someone to hide, and you think that you answer no only for your life, but for the life of your little child, you to start doing it, you have thought 3000 times,

it is true, but it is difficult. choice, if you make such a choice, then it is not at all clear what kind of human qualities you have, they may not be available to us, but what i am talking about is that these are such cases, this hunting was like an animal, like an animal, and therefore, that is why the holocaust has an exclusive character, exclusively in this regard for israel, although i believe, my point of view, if i were a member of the knesset, i would believe that genocides are aimed at destroying the national consciousness of existence itself. other peoples must also be recognized physically, and this in principle corresponds to the definition of genocide, which, as you know, was also created by a lawyer of jewish origin, mr. lemkin, who was born here in lviv, literally next to our studio, this is also a lot about says that all this happened here on these lands, one way or another, and the holocaust, and pogroms,

and precisely the legal one. defining what the holocaust is, it's all in one knot, so again, i'm not going to say that's the right approach, just because i always believed that this was the wrong approach, always told his israeli friends that this was the wrong approach, but we have to understand why this is so, the ukrainian had a conditional chance to save himself not simply because he could come to the city and survive there, no, he came and died on the spot, because simply, well, it happened that they were not released simply. i mean, if you broke out, you might simply not have made it, but simply, if you lived there and were a ukrainian, all this would allow you to hope for survival, well, that is, you simply did not starve, with the holocaust the situation was different, much more difficult, and this was the first situation of total , total destruction of the people, by the way, hitler, as you know, relied on the genocides in irmen, he said that no one remembers the

armenian genocide, and therefore, if we destroy everyone. everyone will forget about it too, but he is also wrong, he was also in the stereotypical understanding, no matter how strange it sounds, of the armenian genocide, because the armenian genocide was first of all a political, political genocide, they destroyed a huge number of people, their resettlement campaigns and such another, but they could not to get to everyone, but it was not such an absolute goal for them, because they wanted to destroy the arvirmen not just as a nation, as a national movement, the young turks, as a national movement that, in their opinion, threatened the empire, but... or something similar happened during the second world war, when resettlement led to physical deaths and to the destruction of entire centers of life of the peoples of the soviet union, what happened to the crimean tatars and the peoples of the caucasus and the peoples of the voloch region, these were signs of genocide, because i am talking about people resettled to other places, how many people died on the way, the vistula operation, that was all, it was a continuation of this practice, as

you understand, so even by and large we also have to understand this, and what could be not to talk about the horrors of the holocaust on memorial day, but maybe we should say that the eviction of germans from those territories that were ceded to the soviet union and poland and other countries also already had signs of genocide, can you imagine how many people did not make it, and these were just ordinary, they could have been german children, uh, that's of course, again the question, how people are responsible for the atrocities of their own state and... with their own lives, but simply these practices, we thought they would end with the second world war, and by and large the very creation of the state of israel was also an admission of guilt, although the state of israel was created, how strange it is for other people, for those who escaped the holocaust, because from the very beginning they did not believe in the possibility of survival in europe. zionist leaders who were, as you understand, marginal in the jewish political movement, always, always.

they were considered some strange people because most of the people wanted to live here, and when they came and told their compatriots from germany, poland, where else, that you have to go to palestine, you will not survive here, everyone told them, listen, we are germans, well, you want to play that , that you have a national state in palestine, well, please, we are even ready to help, but don't touch us, and only some small groups of people, they really listened to it, it was numerous. not many, but these were the people who survived, so there were waves of migration associated with this move, it's also a whole story, when i 'm in tel aviv and i'm walking on dziangof street, i remember being told that the old residents of the city, that this street all spoke german, because they were german jews who ran away from hitler, not from a good life, they did not want to go there to...