i imagine them well enough, so everyone has to start with themselves, but here the paradox of the situation is that really a number of people, people who are quite authoritative, wrote about it as a fact that happened, a fait accompli, that is their choice, we they didn't do it with you, so we did it right, that means our level. information hygiene is higher than theirs, that's all. let's return to zelenskyi, but from the other side, from the side of the bill on mobilization, because on february 6 the government must first introduce a bill on mobilization to the parliament, and president zelensky expects a fair law on mobilization from the military leadership, calling for justice for conscripts. and digitalization of the

recruitment process, let's listen to what zelensky said. i expect from the military today a law on fair mobilization, or a continuation, or changes to the law, you can call it differently. in any case, i would like it to be a comprehensive, fair bill, after all, so their task today is to do it. and that no one does not say that this is a popular decision, but it is not popular, but i think it is important that the military prepare, the military together with the ministry of defense prepare a fair answer to this question, that is why i asked our military, when they prepare this bill, they and deputies, i asked that there should be no chance to walk on the streets, today there are opportunities for... the use of digital

format, etc., that is, we live in the time of digitalization, and even more so, we are a very digitalized country, we have established this process even during covid, and during the war, there are no questions to solve this, this is a modern question, mr. yevgeny, why does the supreme commander of the armed forces of ukraine distance himself from the military, he is their leader. during the war , he leads them, he says: well, what the military will prepare, that will be, why does he not take responsibility, it is not in the context of the fact that we disperse treason, but it would be quite logical, mobilization - this is a question of the whole society, the legally elected leader of this society is volodymyr zelenskyi, he is supreme according to the constitution the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine, then who should take responsibility for this draft law and the mobilization process? well

, that is, in order to present this society. volodymyr zelenskyi, who will celebrate 5 years of his tenure as president on may 20, 2024, is responsible for this mobilization under ukrainian legislation. during this time , the powers of the president could, in principle, be memorized, i think, and from... accordingly understand that politicians and power, which is formed by people through elections, they should determine a certain matrix, the military should implement it, not vice versa, we do not have a military junta, which the kremlin likes to scare us with, we have a democratic state.

it's just zelenskyi's team, i don't think that he himself is so involved in this process, but zelenskyi's team does not understand very well the fact that, in principle, there are quite a lot of unpopular decisions in ukraine at the moment for one simple reason, because they are popular. . there are no more solutions left, there are none, the war has been going on for so long, so long, that there are simply no popular solutions technically anymore, and the president will have to act in such a way to carry out effective mobilization, and therefore, accordingly, the question of...

the example of the government of national unity, its creation, is not talk, it is a tool, if you like, an algorithm for ... expansion of how the system of power should work at the moment, because we cannot hold elections during war, but change the government and restore the legal model in accordance with the constitution, return from the presidential office. to the parliamentary of the presidential republic, we are simply obliged, this is our goal for today, we have to really work with it practically, otherwise we may face

various negative tests, we must clearly understand for ourselves that... one of the tasks of ukraine in this war - not to turn into a small russia, and this task is extremely difficult, on the one hand, and on the other hand, its successful implementation allows us to count on the help of the west, on the consolidation of ukrainian society, on transformation. but the position when the president as supreme the commander-in-chief, you absolutely rightly noted that, says that he, well, it seems to be of no use here, it causes, at best

, laughter, at worst, it causes misunderstanding, because our partners are used to the fact that everything has work. by law, and by law it is the president who is responsible for mobilization, and he announces it, you understand, well , how about the military, well, that is, i don’t quite like this thesis that the military wants such and such mobilization from me, and i, as zelenskyi said even before at the press conference before the new year that they they demand to mobilize 400... people, and i am against it, and what are we for or what? that is, well, this is, unfortunately, a situation in which, uh, reluctance to take responsibility, simply plays against the president himself, and he will feel it in

a fairly quick time, because in the conditions of war, the category of social time, it. .. this is very compressed, but you just have to understand that society is exhausted on the one hand, in a state of exhaustion, it more sensitively notes for itself what kind of informational tricks we all face, well, this is actually, let’s say, understatement when he talks about mobilization, and... this constant hate that we saw under luzhny spills over into what we saw today, because this is basically the end of these misunderstandings, both public and non-public. literally 30 seconds, mr. yevgeny, how do you think this story with

mobilization and the political and military leadership of the state will develop? i would really like to see us form a government of national unity, and he did. took responsibility for the introduction of this bill and accordingly demonstrated how political should work responsibility, and we need this issue further, because mobilization is not only a military concept, it is a concept related to the economy, this concept is related to the social system, this concept is related to each of us, because first of all, that the war will last a long, undetermined long time. have to say on the mountain, and then the citizens have to realize it. thank you, mr. yevgeny, it was yevhen magda, director of the institute of world politics. friends, we work live on the tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, we are conducting a survey, we are asking you about whether you allow the freezing of the war with

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greetings, friends, live on the espresso tv channel, the verdict program, this is the second part of our issue, today we are talking about the following. a parliamentary crisis is looming, zelenskyi's allies are en masse drafting mandates, whether the government of national unity will save the situation. cleaning of the defense system. the participants in the scandal with the purchase of ammunition were arrested, who is to blame for the ammunition shortage? ukraine is once again offered to give up the territory, or is it possible to freeze the war with russia? in exchange for ukraine joining nato. we'll be talking about this and more with our guests for the next 45 minutes, but before we introduce them, i'll say that we're live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who watch us there. now live , please like this video and

subscribe to our pages on these platforms, and you can also participate in the survey, we are asking you today, do you allow a war freeze with russia yes no it's pretty simple on youtube if so press yes no no press no if you're sitting watching us live on tv pick up your smartphone and vote if you allow the freezing of the war with russia (0800-21 381 not 0800 211 382) call everyone. calls to these numbers are free. today, friends, we have a political science studio, i want to introduce today's guests, they are oleksiy holobutsky, political scientist, political technologist, deputy director of the modeling agency situations mr. oleksiy, i congratulate you. congratulations. vitaly kulyk, director of the center for researching civil society problems. mr. vitaly, i also congratulate you. i congratulate you. and

we are still waiting for the inclusion of volodymyr fysenko, political scientist, chairman of the board of the center for applied political science. research of penta. gentlemen, let's start with today's news, and the news that has been in the past two hours, i think that you have accurately followed the story with the inclusion of information about the dismissal of the honorable commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine, moreover, this happened quite actively, public people published information about in social networks, published information about what they knew. about the resignation of zaluzhny, they say that the decree was signed on his dismissal, zaluzhny was replaced by general budanov and there is already a decree, then the office of the president of ukraine was not as prompt as we would like, but denied this information, but for some time this information circulated and lived in society that it was your way, i.e.

, a conscious insinuation by some group of people that this resignation took place, it was you... only the information that these decrees were signed, but simply not made public, or what it was, mr. oleksiy, well, it could have been any of these options, absolutely, first of all, the situation has not yet been finalized, it is absolutely unknown, but so, what happened and did it really happen, so far as i understand it, only two people, who will remain, can say about it. will definitely put an end to this issue, at least for now, whether it is zelenskyi or zaluzhnyi himself, zelenskyi did not say anything in his evening address, we did not hear from zaluzhnyi either, so this the situation continues , you know, too many people, journalists gave this information, well

, it certainly could not have appeared in an empty place, but again, in this situation, there is nothing... there is nothing new, i remember i'm sorry, it was somewhere in the summer of 22 when i printed the post, well, i received information about the replacement of the old silsky, so and after that during these two years, one way or another , this information appeared from time to time about the fact that they are going to replace the poor one or something in another way, to solve his problem, so to speak. obviously, there is a problem, a communication problem, a relationship problem, probably of all the people who make decisions, in wartime, nevertheless, luluzhne appears to be the most authoritative and the most independent from, from the office of the president, so he is quite

logically, he is not suitable, everything is fine , really, mr. oleksiy, but in this situation, when there was an information torpedo, mariana was cornerless, and this torpedo attacked valery zaluzhny quite actively, then it is clear that this is an attack maryana bezuglai was considered as part of this plan to bring society to the point where, well, at least an active part of this society, what could this resignation be? i think the problem is not so much in the resignation, the question is not so much in the resignation, it is to equalize the responsibility, let's say, of the military leadership with the political leadership, i believe that after all... the main goal in this is not only to release the hard-working , well, how can it be that there is an attack on the military, well, not even an attack,

but there is a certain political discussion about that, well, i try so hard with such words not to be too confrontational, but that the military are not angels, that the military are also responsible for the problems that exist. there at the front and in general there is a problem with mobilization with everyone else, and how else to check the reaction of society to the fact that, after all, to remove a soldier, it is possible to throw in such information that we are about to look at the reaction, or all this the work she is conducting was conducted there by the same bezuglaya, and many others in order to reduce the authority of the industrious, it is already working or not working yet, it is possible in this was... and the current, current information store, which i repeat, has not yet ended, nevertheless, yes, it will end when we see a hard-working person at

his workplace. thank you, mr. oleksiy , mr. vitaliy, but why doesn't zelenskyy come out now and write down his position and say: we don't have any problems at all with the tyrant, someone is picking on us, someone is dispersing this information about the resignation of the head of the armed forces of ukraine, if this one. .. there is no problem, then it is not a problem for zelensky to record a short video and say that there are no questions no, well, actually there is a question, there are problems in the relationship, and i agree with oleksiy , all the rumors do not arise out of nowhere, and that there really are problems, that there is a contradiction between the bank and the head office, this is with kat polishenely, everyone knows about it, and these... questions have not been filmed, and it was possible to make a joint video with zuluzhny long ago, not only a photo, but also record a joint video where you can shoot any questions, but this

is not done , that is, it means that there really are prophecies, and these prophecies, they accumulate, they become more complicated, and accordingly, outside the limits of the pond, no communication, such live communication between the two people who manage the military sphere and the political sphere does not take place. therefore, it is obvious that this also creates space for manipulations, space for information operations in kydiv, which we observed today, and before and before that, the issue of the resignation of zaluzhnoy became more acute, but i would say that, for example, today i do not rule out , that there was no smoke without fire, moreover, i would not have been fascinated by mr. zaluzhny and... it was said that the attack on zaluzhny is some kind of political-technological special operation, that it is only

a matter of political competition, no, because there are questions for mr. zaluzhny and there are questions for the general staff, sometimes what bezugla says, it has a real ground under it, and these are objective questions that she asked, questions in a different way, questions in the form of how she did it, but questions, they are real, and these... questions asked by military personnel, including , officers, and on these and on these questions , the general staff is not worthy, by and large they really don't answer, that's why this miscommunication and attempts to find out some dates and put some strategic accents with the help of not addressing the national media, communicating with each other and with the ukrainian people through foreign mass media. information, and we see it all the time, one program statement, a program interview of mr. zaluzhnyi, then another program interview of mr. zelenskyi, but to whom it is a foreign publication, not a ukrainian one, it

seems strange to me that such communication, but it all overlaps, it causes mistrust to the authorities, it causes distrust in the military-political leadership as a whole, it raises the question of what is really going on there, and creates a space when any manipulation is picked up and... a session on the information space, and how does this affect the war with russia, how does it affect society , how does it affect the morale of those who are currently at the front, well, that is, there are misunderstandings and extramural discussion, because we see an absentee discussion, we see people who take part in an extramural discussion, there is a team of the president who throws something to the poor man there. is the team is diligent, obviously, which answers in absentia as well to president zelensky, how does all this affect the army, does it affect

the army? and how it is used by the russian federation, because they, for them, it is one of the elements to create tension within ukrainian society, because it is clear that the level of trust in zuluzhnoy is equal to the level of trust in the armed forces, well, it turns out that as long as zuluzh is the head of the zsu, then the trust of the zsu is equal to trusting zaluzhny, isn't that right, well, not really. because there is no certain non-correlation of trust to of the armed forces as before the constitution to certain figures, what kind of power inspires this institution, in particular some village offices record that this gap between the institution and the family name, it is already happening, this is the first, and secondly, as soon as god forbid, it will cease to be useful head of the central committee, we can measure his personal rating and personal trust, let's say in

a few months, and we will see that... the rating will be a little lower, well, not a little, much lower than when he is in his position, but trust in the armed forces will remain high enough, that's why this thing with ratings, well, i wouldn't worry too much about it, but to what extent it affects society, not the resignation directly, the immediate resignation itself, but the situation of uncertainty, when there is this misunderstanding of everything, the whole picture, uncertainty in relations. which is extrapolated on some expectations from the military and political leadership, they really have a negative effect, because it causes strategic disorientation, gives the impression that the government is in some kind of strategic helplessness, which exists a constantly active conflict that can manifest itself and decide to be in some unexpected way and it is not known when and it is not known what the unforeseeable personnel decision of the political leadership will be in relation to

the military command. all this accumulates further contradictions between the parties and affects the planning of military operations, it creates problems for communication, military leadership and political leadership, so i would be more afraid of the resignation of the most diligent, and that such a situation of uncertainty will continue to persist and give rise to a greater toxicity, i was more afraid of that. thank you, mr. vitaly, we are joined by volodymyr fisenko, political scientist, chairman of the board. center for applied political research, penta. mr. volodymyr, i congratulate you and thank you for joining our broadcast. yes, congratulations, good evening. oleksiy and vitaliy and i have already talked about these latest information leaks regarding the resignation of zaluzhny from the post of commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine. how do you perceive this whole story that unfolded, well, literally during

the last two hours and witnessed by... we were, and are there any reasons to wait for a decree on the resignation of the head of state, if not today, then in some near future? well, i think that it will happen someday, it is inevitable , there are no permanent people in positions, everything changes, regarding the resignation of the veteran, and not only that, there were rumors, the last one somewhere... well, for about two weeks there were rumors about possible rotations in the power unit , i.e. not only regarding the position of the commander of the armed forces, but it was also about some other heads of the security forces, i understand that it was discussed, the option of a certain reassignment was evaluated, the transfer of people from one position to another, this is basically a traditional well-known scheme, about two

days ago, if i am not mistaken, the traditional newsmaker ms. bezugla published the version that there are three candidates for the position of commander of the armed forces, and there were critical remarks on all three candidacies, and some commentators even drew attention to the fact that all this was not written in the traditional style of mrs. bezugla, but a bit like that, i would say politically technological, so... well, there are some expectations were, but you know what the paradox of the situation is, they can fire a diligent person, the tension there , as i understand it, remained, maybe because of the topic of mobilization, and maybe not only mobilization, i mean the draft law, well, everything that is there around the process mobilization, there is a contradiction, it is most likely a mutual one.