but it seems to me that the first laurat was korniychuk, by the way, from literature, well no , well, this, well, she is soviet, the tail is not easy, so christ is very difficult, but the main thing is that there are always suspicions that something is moving from the mountain, and there is always a suspicion that any of the public people... can either be bent or bribed, this is spread in society, and when i was a year ago, when i gave up my authority, i had such a marathon, micro-marathon interview, and i am constantly asked, well, tell me what you are there, they influenced you from the office, and i say, well, it's interesting, how can i be influenced, well what, what can i do... if i, as i have in

previous years, so to speak, have not acquired anything, but in what way, well what? look, that is, you are now saying that the mentality of our society is the same, any state award will always be under suspicion, under scandal, and there will always be people who will not trust, if it is not a state award , then they will say that it is a feud, there is a laureate. you are, unless for some reason the bbc book of the year, well , because it is the bbc brand, it does not cause such a doubt, but anyway, well, people say, well agreed among themselves, of course, that there are their own, of course, that there is what was called at one time the russian word grupovshchyna, where will you go, because we are all, all cultural figures , one way or another stomping on the same platform.

and you know everyone, or at least through one handshake, you once worked with someone, you once were with someone, everyone would find a desire, yes, but, but when it starts, especially when you touch the eyes of the steel type of hierarchy , how they hated us in the writers' union, god, how they hated us. union of composers about we will definitely talk about old hierarchies, because this is a very interesting story, this is a collision of new and old worlds, but in fact , many of the people who are watching us now have understood that the conversation about state awards is not only about the shevchenko prize , and above all our conversation, our dialogue here is connected with the translation prize, with the oldest, very authoritative, teaching

prize of maksym rylsky, which is more than 50 years old, and which, as they say, is stagnant even at the time when the shevchenkivska the award was given there for the works of socialist realism, the maksym rylsky prize was equally awarded to very worthy people, very worthy translators, that is, this prize is very important, very authoritative, and last week the committee of the... maksym rylsky prize announced the names of the laureates of the 2023 prize. the prize was awarded, in particular , to dmytro drozdovsky, literary scholar, literary critic, and andrew shepard. to the translator, ah, from russian, for the translation into english of the collection of texts by the irpin children, irpin is my home. the problem is that the literary critic. researcher

dmytro drozdovsky of the institute of literature has been accused of plagiarism more than once, and there is a conclusion of the commission of the institute of literature that 60-64% of one of his scientific works is plagiarized. and the problem is that this andrew shepard, who allegedly translated the works of the irpin children together with dmytro drozdovsky, is a real translator. from russian and is the editor of the journal of the british-russian society "east-west review", this publication is a reflection of the views of the so-called good russians, that is, until now this publication remains a platform of representation of russian culture abroad. we are in touch with tamara gundarova, as i promised you, tamara gundarova is a literary critic of cultural studies. doctor of philology,

a professor who currently teaches ukrainian literature at harvard. mrs. tamaro, welcome, good evening, good day. and tell me , please, how did you perceive this decision of the maksym rylsky award committee? i must say that i was not surprised, because the fact is that this story with rozdovsky, which began four or five years ago, it, it is not finished, and i have such the impression that, in fact, it is like a cancerous tumor, it spreads in our society as well, in the same way in his... different spheres, eh, because here we are talking not only about borrowing, let's say, but also about, about scientific reputation, about the reputation, the translator , the editor of the universe, which remains, remains druzdovskyi, eh, you understand what the matter

is, when this story with plagiarism began, at our institute, i will simply remind, during the discussion of the dissertation, dmytro druzdovskyi, which was completed in doctoral studies of our institute, the fact of borrowing was discovered, e a whole commission was created, which included not only us, as employees of the institute, but also, but we also invited our colleagues from other universities, from other universities, and we, in fact, did not even suspect in general that is waiting for us, in fact we can talk about the fact that this is such a unique fact of such total... total total plagiarism, the whole work in fact, when you talk about or mention about 64% of borrowings, in fact the situation looks like that 64% we analyzed this works, is to understand

the manuscript is more than 300 pages, and there are actually 90% of those borrowings, that is, it is a borrowing that can be called total, it is not about borrowing some pieces. understand the text of other people's texts, here we are talking about articles, for example, articles published in western publications in english, rather poorly translated, which from the beginning, from the first line, from the first word to the end , are inserted as a section of drozdovsky's dissertation, you can imagine, yes that right away it actually turned out that you understand, this kind of ... er fraudster is not quite decent the reputation, the approach, appears in different areas, and what was important , it seems to me that first of all, it was actually about the destruction of science itself in general, and the paradox

is that despite the fact that after this this stories with drozdovsky, they began to talk a lot about plagiarism. and there was even such an official order about checking at the level of student works, let's say, dissertations, necessarily articles too, but i want to say that this continues, and it seems to me to a certain extent that like such a cancerous tumor, it permeates ukrainian, in particular, science and humanities to a very large extent, and it goes to other fields, and this story with the award, it simply points to that, it points to the fact that... this, this, this, this plagiarism, or this dishonesty, it extends to other areas, it actually destroys them, as, for example, it destroys the same rila prize. ms. tamara, you wrote last week that drozdovsky remains

a desirable person at the institute of literature, moreover, they are proud of him and perceive him as an unfair victim, so how can this be, you are talking about the fact that it is a cancerous tumor. this is the problem of the ukrainian academy's tolerance for plagiarism, and i'm sorry , i'll ask you directly, what would happen if something similar happened, for example, in a western academy, for example, in harvard, where you now teach, how would colleagues react to such facts? well, i will tell you that in fact , dishonesty and playaad are between this is not only a suto-ukrainian phenomenon, we... constantly hear about these stories, and a recent story at harvard, a very loud story about dismissal, that the president of harvard university, who was accused of plagiarism, was forced to resign, this is a very, very big scandal, eh, but

plagiarism happened very often, you understand what is meant by plagiarism, sometimes plagiarism is considered just such well-known phrases that, in other words... you ca n't paraphrase, you know, it's like, how to take, for example, to say that, the sky, the sky is blue , let's say, there is blue, yes, but you, you are into such things must succeed too, so that's a different case. but you understand what case? the case of druzdovsky shows that he was not actually punished anywhere in any field, or is not responsible for his actions, except that we, we, did not allow him to defend, he still has not defended this thesis, he, by the way, i must say, made several attempts to negotiate with various universities in ukraine and defend himself, by the way, with the support of mon. who wrote letters with a request to help him defend himself, to take him to the defense, he allegedly rewrote, he

changed and so on, but the repeated ones are different, yes so to speak, the examinations showed that nothing in particular had changed there, so that trozdovsky remained unpunished, and he remains, for example, in our institute, he remains, so to speak, a victim of our attack, er, it is said, so to speak, how we became enemies me in particular, because i took the garbage out of the house, you understand, it is considered, i must say that not only among us, let's say, among some employees or in the directorate, but also in society it is also considered that there is nothing here, everyone that's how they do it, you see, here they said it en masse, but you understand that at the same time we turned to the shevchenko committee , of which drozdovsky was a member. we must give credit to serhii trimbach, who actually reacted to all that and posed questions to

the members of the shevchenko committee, but that's it, but it didn't gain any publicity, but one more position, and it's very important here, drozdovsky was and remains an editor of the universe, you understand, he remains, all the members of the editorial board, only stricha and oleksandr... they announced that they were leaving the editorial board, but it was quiet, no one was talking about it, it was not so public that they knew about it, you understand what i want to say, that this case with shepherd, he it just shows once again that the reputation of science, literary studies, literature, the literary field is actually being undermined not only within the borders of ukraine, but also outside its borders, because rostovsky is involved in his scams, i can't do it otherwise... to name many scientists, from outside, from outside the borders of ukraine, we

it was discovered, for example, that he is simply faking, he is falsifying responses to some actions, which, when we addressed them , we were simply shocked that they got into this story, because all this was interpreted completely differently by drozdovsky, in relation to them, it the same goes for sheper too, they addressed me , wrote to me, it's just that i'm not going to be a watchman for rostovsky, you see, i have my own...my tasks, but i was told that druzdovskyy promises some minor to a third-rate ukrainian poet to translate it and to be published somewhere abroad, but obviously , people just wrote to me about it and so on, that is, there are a lot of such stories, i want to say that in my opinion, drozdovsky is interesting and brilliant in his own way, brilliant in this way, you understand, as a literary character in a fraudulent novel, so... and you understand, and this story with a prize, she simply showed what remains obvious,

i will ask mrs. tamaro, i will ask mrs. tamaro, you now have a prize, maksym strikha, a scientist and also the translator, by the way, is the only one a member of the maksym rylsky prize committee, who disagreed and left the committee in protest, and he wrote a text called how the rylsky prize was killed. he writes that the committee can still meet and make some decisions, but it will no longer have, it will already have very little impact on actual ukrainian translation, do you agree that the award was really killed, or do you think this is a bit of an exaggeration ? you know, it sounds really good, i want to remind you that during the actual 17th. in the 18th year, i also wrote an article about how drozdovskyi, who was

a consultant at the time, said that the field of science is being killed, the field of ukrainian science is being destroyed, so actually this is just a repetition of these actions. i think to myself, you see, the question is for me, i really like the fact that i am very glad that you are discussing the actual issue of bonuses today, because it seems to me that the issue of bonuses in general in ukraine is very... difficult today, starting from shevchenkivska and rila and so on. i do not think that the rylsky prize, that this story killed the rylsky prize? absolutely not, that's why what and... the name, because it bears the name of rylsky, as well as the reputation of rylsky, nothing and no one ever, especially druzdovsky and his company, they cannot undermine it, it is about what, what it is worth doing, how to get out of this situation, and it seems to me, for example, that i myself even wanted to write such a public letter of appeal

regarding these awards, well, for example, to take an award , not only the rila award, but an award, for example , lesya ukrainka, lesya award... a ukrainian woman who also appeared in soviet times, she is sentenced to a prison for children. you can to imagine that the most intellectual writer is ukrainian, it is believed that she is a children's writer. this is an absolutely typical soviet gesture, when, so to speak, a woman, a writer, is assigned a certain role, well, let's say, an educator, a mother for children, and so on. that is, it is only in such a patriarchal, strictly patriarchal society. can be the most intellectual writer, a modernist, yes, be considered, so to speak, such a writer who, i am not talking about the fact that for children it is no no no it's not disrespectful, let's say it's not prestigious , it's just that le ukrainka didn't specialize in it, it's not staiko, there are many other authors who are actually

writers for children, lesya ukrainka, you know, shevylyov wrote a book called a book not for ... children, he actually spoke about this high, high level of criticism and literature, with the criterion of which he approached literature, and he said that these are really texts not for children, not for not for infantile, so to speak, reading, here again, i was once involved but one only once, it seems, before the gogol prize , i didn't know about its existence at all, you see, i noticed that neither the popularity nor the level of the works that are submitted for this prize, well... you just understand, well, it's terrible, gogol i, what are we, we just quietly throw him out of our field, from our literature, from our consciousness and so on, but you understand, gogol is great, it is worth fighting for gogol, and the gogol prize should also be given for the best achievements, yes , you understand, that is, it seems to me that all these awards, which were created in soviet times, must

their rules, their principles and everything else should be reconsidered and rewritten, otherwise i... we will never get out of the fact that people like drozdovsky will win, and from the way the jury is selected, obviously, the way the committees are selected, this it can be seen, for example , on the example of the current shevchenkivskyi committee, yes, this raises a lot of questions, i think it is necessary to talk about it and ask, i simply began to demand that all these issues be considered at the level of ministries, the government there and so on, who is responsible for this, thank you, and it was that... tamara gundaro, we thank you so much for taking the time to get involved. tamara gundarova, a scientist and literary critic, was in touch with us. thank you, by the way, to the members of the shevchenko committee for the previous, as it is the previous convocation of the convocation. by the way, mrs. tamara very aptly said now about the composition of the jury and

the composition of the committees of some awards, i would say. a large part of the awards of people who are very far from humanitarianism, and i will now show the appeal that the ukrainian cultural community sent, this is an open letter, yes, that the activists of culture sent to to the prime minister of ukraine, to the minister of culture of ukraine, to the head of the state tv radio and to the members of the committee of the maksym rylsky prize, and in this appeal, which i signed. there have been a lot of worthy people , it is said that the rylsky prize, actually the laureate, the laureates of this prize for the past year significantly undermine the role of one of the oldest prizes in ukraine, and devalue translation work, endangering the burden in culture and trust in state

institutions in general, and now they write about the fact that the committee is very little and... represented specialists in translation, and this calls into question the ability of the maksymarinsky committee to assess the quality of the translation, because several translators from the community suspect the laureate of using machine translation, that is , it is about druzdovsky, without further editing, moreover, the text itself, despite its importance, so these the texts of the irpin children, despite the importance of this text, in which , well... actually for ukraine, as well as for the world, these texts are simple and do not contain any translation challenges, which are requested by the cultural workers, which are requested by the cultural community, firstly, to cancel the results of this year's award due to the unreliability of the professional community, mistrust of the professional community, secondly, to form clear criteria and a clear system for evaluating nominated

works, this is what tamara gundurova was talking about, and to dismiss the current composition of the ryvsky award committee. in your opinion, yura, will this save, or will these three points save the rylsko award? let's start from the very beginning, why is it important in principle, because we've been on the air for 10 minutes, and i imagine how people side of the tv, what are they talking about, some kind of award show, some kind of druzd translation, but maybe the word scandal, yes scandal, stopped them at the screen, i assure you that we are very, very knowledgeable and very... first of all, the translation is an extremely important branch of national culture, this is the first, and

here is nataliya yakovenko, well, our giant, historian, maybe i don't know, well, there is number one or not, number one in ukrainian history, historiography, she is to my taste. she is the number one historian who abandoned her research and is translating even titus into ukrainian libya. tid livius is an ancient roman historian who wrote 100 volumes there, and here ms. natalya is sitting and translating, when she is asked why, she says, well , she can't, it's like, if they don't have italy in the culture, that's all. .. well, well, no, how can there be no shakespeare in culture, this is not pre-culture, yes, and this is a very important point, that is, these are the people who bring world cultural heritage into your

own culture, or there, say, oleksiy panych translates aristotle , and we have a high-quality philosophical, well, professional philosopher, translated aristotle into ukrainian, i think to myself, here we are... we have almost the first constitution there, the constitution of philip, yes, the constitution, of philip the eagle, who, by the way, knew all this about livius and aristotle, because he studied at vilni in the jesuit college, and then in the kyiv-mohyla college, and if he did not know all this, this, if this, well, he knew, this... obviously in the original, then we would not have the constitution of philip orlyk, and there would not be this tradition of constitutional law, there would not be this

legal consciousness, at least in certain ones to the elites, what is legal consciousness, it means that no moment can put you in a jail for reasons of revolutionary expediency, that's the point. that mr. shepard appears there, i don't know, i have to research it every time, but i looked, they put out pieces of this translation, it's just very bad english, you know, very bad, for that, it's just, well, it's a shame, it's a shame. but to send to the world on behalf of ukraine and it is a shame to promote it in such a way, and the third,

in fact, is integrity in general, because we do not have an institution of reputation, only about this the dead man didn't say anymore, she doesn't work here, and everyone, that's why, i'm glad that you're here. tamara gundurova, because there is a person with an impeccable reputation that no one can, and the fact that she represents ukraine at harvard for a minute just proves that our culture, our humanitarianism is at a sufficiently high level of ukrainian scientists and humanitarians, know, translate, issue and... invite, and this means that the only thing that can be reloaded in any way, in general, in principle, anything, and the rylsky prize.

in particular, it is not to prescribe the criteria, because every time there are some small circumstances that turn the situation 180°, and to restart the chapter, the jury, the high jury, the jury, will still be dissatisfied, as dissatisfied with the decision of the nobel committee, or dissatisfied with the decision there.. .or the oscar committee, whatever , will always be unhappy, but at least if there are people in white robes, and we have them, i insist, uh, and here it is again, going back to the beginning, from my personal mistake , with which we started this broadcast, no

it is necessary... to fight for some operational er achievements er, if they go to the detriment of this general level of trust in society. you mentioned the white robes, and we're almost out of time, but i can't help but ask a final question, which is very important. you said whitewash, but you said it earlier. about the old hierarchies, and for me these are the scandals that are constantly happening, and not only in awards, it happens, they happen around the ukf, they happen around the dovzhenko center, they happen around state cinema, they take place around any cultural or scientific institution, and this is a conflict of old and new, white robes, new intellectual inquiries and challenges, and those people who are the bearers of these bureaucratic soviet

values. look, it seems to me that anna vovchenko, also a translator, is wonderful, she summarized what was happening very well, i will quote her post, please show it. anna vovchenko writes the following: you can, of course, wait until all this stale, stale, overgrown with moss alternative party, paid for from our and from you taxes, will simply disappear over the years and in accordance with the laws of biology, but in the meantime, this hall... the party is not just associated in the average mind with the state as opposed to the commercial lit process, it represents it, i.e. the state, in its segment of activity and thus himself opposes the state in this modern, adequate, simply decent and appropriate intellectual questions of the 24th year, humiliates our state to the level of yanukovych and tabachnyk

of plastic wreaths and for... at the ukrainian stand in frankfurt, in a word of all that, with what we began to forcefully, literally with blood , 10 years ago. tell me, please, do we have the prospect of breaking away from this, from these old hierarchies? of course, you just need to shake it up, i'm sorry, i understand that institutions are fed by traditions, but if the institutions are toxic, then they need to be shaken up. we are talking not only about age, mr. dmytro, yes, he is a very young man, well, we are, we are barely acquainted, but i saw him, well, in the same, in that shevchenko committee, he is quite a representative of a new generation, no, but we have enough people with a code, and i am still convinced that in the young generation, which is not yet bogged down in these

relationships, people who are ready to stand up for dignity, stand up for the truth, and we must, we must say all the time, the truth exists , yes, white and black exist, the light side of power and the dark side of power, this is not convention, this is not fiction, it exists, and if there is an opportunity for decent people to unite, then it should be done... and there is an opportunity, there are forces in society , despite the fact that the society, well, many decent people have left, just physically, they are now gone ukraine, and in general it is alleged that this is not the case in ukraine, but at the same time, if we do not do this, we will blush with shame from time to time, during the war, it is harmful for the country.