the right of the commander-in-chief also has legitimacy, that is, it is the society's perception of this or that person, this or that decision, action, and so on. the situation with the industrious, it goes far beyond the scope of authority, competence and so on, it is different, it is a different category of things, but there was no one to teach them. there was no one to learn from, because we live from a clean slate, as a young state, especially since the people who came in the 19th year, they faced problems that were for them, well, mega problems, they were titanic tasks, and therefore it is clear that their it was necessary to decide on the go, it would be clear that in such a situation, when this whole constellation of people with unique experience... will end up

somewhere else, well, it is clear that they will be among the candidates for the first papaha, it cannot be otherwise, such the laws of social life , the state machine, politics, but there is one more thing here, there is no politics in ukraine, what is in ukraine cannot be called a masonic lodge, but it cannot be called politics either, it is something else. political institutions do not work, and you and i have talked about this topic more than once, i said, and i will repeat it endlessly, we are building a democratic state in the conditions of war, i say again, a democratic state, not a totalitarian state, what happened is a classic example of the actions of the heads of the state, the political leadership. for a totalitarian

state, in a democratic state such actions, such actions are unacceptable. you have already mentioned , mr. roman, how it is perceived in the west, well, of course, in the current situation, and washington, and brussels, and bonn, berlin, forgive me, they say that this is an internal matter of ukraine, and it is understandable , what accordingly, legally and constitutionally, volodymyr zelenskyy has the right to... personnel changes, but we are watching what is happening in the congress of the united states of america, and obviously, this is not the best time for such a personnel rotation. we see how trump is now gaining momentum in the united states of america, we see how putin is trying to prove that ukraine does not exist, that he has the right to this part of the globe through the tucker carson interview, we see what is happening , that's all, what... we were waiting for at the end of the 24th

year, started at the beginning of the 24th year, that is not at the end of the 24th year, it is already happening to us now, the same trump you mentioned stated that there is also a big scandal in the world that during his presidency, at one of the meetings with the leaders of nato countries , he threatened to encourage russia to attack those who do not pay entry, or non-entry, contributions to the north atlantic. let's listen to what he said, because it's also interesting: one of the presidents of a large country stood up and asked: sir, if we don't pay and russia attacks us, will you protect us? i asked: you not paid, are you overdue? he said, yes, let's say it happens. no, i wouldn't defend you. moreover, i would encourage them to do whatever they want to do. you have to pay your bills. and

the money is gone, mr. roman, how do you see what is happening in the united states of america, in relation to what is happening in russia, because it looks like putin and trump are starting to play a game against biden, against ukraine, and against the whole world, well , then trump will get out of this game, and putin will get engaged by supporting trump, carlson or someone else. first, i follow trump's speeches quite closely all the time and the reaction to those speeches , and the moment that was reported is the moment of the meeting of the seven, and in this case the conversation did not take place between president trump and the president of another country, but a conversation.

took place between the president of the united states trump and the chancellor of germany, merkel and merkel, such a conversation took place. it is no coincidence that these words, which you have just shown, now caused in germany a very emotional and lively reaction, moreover, it was reacted to in nato, it was reacted to in france, in germany, in other nato countries, it was even reacted to in london, although london usually talks about such things in the anglo-saxon bloc of countries or the group of ukraine. they are silent, there are several points here that i cannot help but pay attention to, because these are two things, actually what you just quoted, and the second is that you have to give loans, it, well, let's do it, again

, i i will use the mildest options, it is somewhat taken out of context, and secondly, you need to understand who mr. trump? this conversation really took place, this conversation took place on the sidelines, where not only trump and merkel were sitting in relaxation mode, it was not business, it was not for an official meeting, it was just a conversation going on. trump, not only communicates in a similar way in such conditions, he is very vulgar, and bolton is about this in his book, he describes such things very well, and it is necessary immediately. to say that he still regretted trump in this book, because he allows himself a lot of very stupid things, but trump allows even more during the election campaign, and that it was said, then at the meeting of the big seven

on the sidelines, it was said from the point of view of pressure on the europeans, at that time, i will remind you, only two countries, only two'. states complied with the norms of payment of contributions to the nato defense budget. this is the first and second. therefore, i want to touch on this issue once again. the way it is titled, mr. serhiy, it was, well, salt was added to it so much that in fact the situation that was almost 6-7 years ago, it was not in the content that is being transmitted now, and what is currently in the elections allows himself trump, i remember this story from that time. second, this is the topic of what is being headlined in our country, not to provide aid to ukraine. the content of the conversation was

completely different. speaking, trump said that it is necessary to work on the lend-lease system. remember, you and i, like others, said that ... that the law on lendlease was passed, but it did not come into effect, dear, dear listeners, lendlease is translated as transfer to rent, trump, despite , that he is a businessman, he is in these military things, well , he floats about, well, like an ax in the water, he is not understands them, and having lost the word lendlease, he started talking about some kind of lease, about some kind of return, about some kind of all these other things, i'm just saying that during the election campaign, if i hadn't run for office so many times and hadn't heard all that

is being said in ukraine, i would accept such a spate of messages at face value and the headlines that are written based on these signals, but i want to remind you that lendlease is a law. accepted the lease transfer, i will reveal it now, because after all, we have to talk about it, we will have it, we will have another 40 seconds, well, then another time , actually - the law never came into effect, they started giving us a non-refundable loan and help, but mr. sergius, how to provide scrap metal, pay attention to what i say, but it's the truth, instead of to launch lendlease and produce from the workshop... we are fighting for the 10th year in metalobrukhta, they say that the leopard is not like that, but the first leopard is the t-55, and we laugh at the fact that the russians are taking the t-55 to the front. well,

mr. roman, we have to end our conversation, sorry, there is not enough time to continue talking with you for an interesting conversation, thank you for conversation, this is roman bezsmertny, a politician. diplomat, friends, we are working live and we are conducting a poll, would you like to see zazhno in ukrainian politics, now we will look at the intermediate results of the poll: 43% - yes, 57% - no, these are the results of the television poll. in 15 minutes we will have serhiy taran and oleksiy holobutskyi. don't switch, stay with us. greetings, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda. we have already come to the snake itself. the following shots may shock you. news from the scene. live kamikaze drone attacks. political analytics, objectively and meaningfully. there is no political season. exclusive interviews. reports from the hottest points of the front. freedom life - frankly and

unbiased. you draw your own conclusions. every week , the saturday political club helps to understand the processes taking place in ukraine and the world. vitaly portnikov, khrystyna yatskiv and invited experts based on facts give their assessment and forecast of the development of events. if you want to understand how our today will affect our tomorrow, watch the saturday political club. every saturday on espresso. greetings, friends, the verdict program is live on the espresso tv channel. this is the second part of our issue today. today in the program. the kurchenko fuel case. ex-people's deputy pashinsky was

searched. why did the law enforcement officers remember the story of nine years ago? rotations in the command of the armed forces. the president made major personnel changes in the military leadership. will this open up new political prospects for zelenskyi? russia is at war with the entire west. on the eve of the elections in advance. putin sends the world a known result signals through their agents. as well as live tv, we work on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those who are watching us live there now, please like this video and also subscribe to our pages. in addition, during the entire broadcast, we conduct a survey, we ask you about the following: would you like to see us in ukrainian politics? yes, no, on youtube. everything is quite simple, yes button, no button, or write your thoughts, write your comments under

this video. if you watch us on tv, pick up your smartphone and vote if you see the future of zaluzhny in ukrainian politics, 0800 211 381, not 0800 211 382. all calls to these numbers are free, call, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. i would like to introduce today's guests, they are... serhii taran, political scientist and political technologist oleksiy holobutskyi. gentlemen, i am pleased to welcome you to our broadcast, thank you for being with us today. greetings, greetings to you. well, since you are the main specialists in politics and political technologies in ukraine, i cannot help you don't ask what you think, whether you see the future of good in ukrainian politics, because our viewers and tv viewers answer these questions. it is interesting to hear your opinion as well, let's start with mr. sergey, you know

, not much depends on our opinion now, especially not in politics, we can see how much people understand it, if we look at sociological polls, which one way or another, but even now various structures are ordering, we will see that all of them have a hard worker, he does not have a party yet, but the rating is already there and there are already scenarios in which... he even wins in any election, maybe, of course, before the election itself, when the election comes, it will not be like that, there all options are possible, but the fact that he is de facto now involved in politics, well, that is beyond doubt, the question the only thing is that we don't have a politician, but his dismissal was done under political pretexts, so it creates certain difficulties, but you know, in ukrainian politics it often happened like that, you know, ukrainians really love those... who , well, as they believe, it is illegal to insult the government, and the campaign is big

the politics of many prominent ukrainian politicians began precisely with this, well, starting with kuchma and yushchenko and ending with a whole galaxy of various anti-corruption activists, activists who fought against the government there, they were oppressed by the government, and after that their foray into politics began, and now zaluzhny in the same way this story goes, in the same way it is filmed as on... citizens sometimes illegally and completely without grounds, and of course, after that, the campaign of a hard-working politician can absolutely begin, of course only under one condition, if he himself will want this. this is now. the only thing that essentially determines his political future is his own desire. well, yes, of course, because general zaluzhnyi did not declare his political views and did not position himself as a politician, although during the war the head of the armed forces of ukraine is the person on whom politics, business, the future of the president, and the past depend president, and the life

of every ukrainian, every person living in this country. mr. oleksiy. how, if we talk about zaluzhny, then probably, how without me me they married , well, it’s about the same, that is, whether he wants it or not, but he was pushed into the top league of ukrainian politics, it is not known when the elections will be, of course, and it is not known whether he will have a party, or not, will he run for office in presidents, it won't happen, would you like to see a hard worker in ukrainian politics? i hear everything, i just thought about it, the question is, you know, i don’t want to support this wave, this is ours, this is our problem, it’s huge, it’s the presence of a problem , what is the program of the industrious, what are the views of the industrious, well, you will vote diligent,

that it turns out that he is an inveterate racist, for example, yes, or a xenophobe, i don't know, he is a leftist. he's a socialist, for example , well, we're just talking, because you know , that's not enough, thank god, we still have at least some kind of democracy left, and you can't force a person into politics, well, that's the order, so to speak, that's how it is here i absolutely do not agree with serhiy, i have a lot of respect for the hard worker and consider him, well, in any case, he entered the history of ukraine, he is a person who will stand next to the most outstanding historical figures. with petlyura, with mikhnovsky, with bandera, there with many others, but for now it is precisely the military factor, part of their biographies, yes, but not the political part, and whether it will be this continuation, no one knows this answer, and again, he has a very difficult right now moment, very difficult, i

'm sure that his fate as a future politician will be decided in the next two or three months, if he doesn't submit this... gnaw doesn't do something during this time, all those, me me, i understand, now they will start spitting on me there in the screen directly and so on, yes, but i remember when i also told that this adventurer, that this person who changed owners several times , who spoke from every tv screen, and everyone loved him, ran after him, collected autographs, everyone listened to him, i saw female fans who were just ready. i just don't want to name this person, so now we see he has a rating of -76, minus 76, so i won't be able to do this, of course, because he didn't fit into this commune, we're talking about him we don't know anything about him except his military achievements, he can, that is, he is perfect

a candidate for the presidency, of course , ideally, yes, because if he continues, well... if in two or three months he says, hints that he is ready to engage in some kind of political activity, to engage, yes, then it will continue , everyone will come up with, yes , they will think, the left will think that he is left , the right will think that he is right, the centrists will think that he is a centrist, and the less he will say, the more the ukrainian people will like him. the problem is something else, the problem is that, well, i don't agree with serhiy here again, he was illegally removed from... it is illegal to remove the commander-in-chief, i just have no idea, this is what, what is this moment, he has a leader, the supreme commander, he was removed from his post during the war, this is a military post, a clear hierarchy, and he cannot be compared with all types the politicians that serhiy spoke about, who

started their careers from retirement, he is a military man, we don't have that, he's a turk. we are not greece in the 70s, we are not even libya, but in the 50s and 60s, right? we do not have a formed military caste that plays a political role, well, simply because of the weakness of democratic institutions, which were in those countries, i do not imagine that, that is, it will be a precedent simply, that is, i imagine, but this will fundamentally change our politics, i wish you, of course, success, i would very much like... to see a hard-working but it won't be the election we 're used to, and it won't be the political career we're used to in principle, yes, it will be completely different, and those who are now ... you won't like it, i have no doubt about it, well , listen, the same goes for politics unexpectedly zelenskyi also came, in principle, this is the first

, of course, of course, this is a unique situation, the second unique situation can be in ukraine, that is, this is the first, and the second, the most interesting thing will be here, and what role does luzhug play and this release that took place, how will it affect the future of... ukraine and the army and the front, and of course president zelenskyi, because uh, if the acting presidents make mistakes, then they have to suffer a lot, if, if we lose the war, then i i think no one cares about the political future of zalushny, nor about the political future of zelenskyi will be of interest, and this is the maximum we can count on, it is the government in exile, and therefore it would be... it seems to me that it is not at all related to this topic, well, but, but zelenskyi did not fire zaluzhny in order to to sit in exile, in principle, and obviously one of

the reasons was, this is precisely the rating of the people's trust, serhii, how is it useful for zelensky from the point of view of zelensky's future, who is so useful on zelensky's path to the second? presidency, well, i will answer first, when i spoke about the perception of zaluzhny, i did not say that, for example, he was removed unfairly, i emphasized that in the opinion of the voters, he was removed unfairly, similarly, when i spoke about his future political future, i spoke about the opinion of the voters, you know this, our voters always create idols for themselves, especially not wondering what their ideology is. and you can't do anything about it today, especially during the war, well, voters will pay less attention to ideology, unfortunately, by the way, and will pay more attention to

some leadership qualities, especially if this a leader from a military environment, they will guess for him what ideology he is from and they will vote for it, and they will come up with very serious stories why he was removed unfairly, although a share, so to speak, well, i want to emphasize... not illegality , and not justice in the fact that he was removed, there is definitely, because the only reason he was removed was his political rating, everything, not his professional qualities, not his failures or failures, but that, and it is all of us we understand perfectly well, and that's exactly how people will perceive it, and that's why he can be carried into politics in his hands , of course, i emphasize once again on the condition that he wants to, because in reality, well, it does not appear that he is very interested in politics, and that is also absolutely... normal, why is it for a military, professional, good politics should be interesting. in general, it would take us more than an hour to talk about what happens to military heroes who go into politics, because

there are completely different stories, they are completely different, opposite, and very successful, for example, like degol, there are less successful ones, well, for example, how pinochet, or there are other stories, but in any case, we are talking now about something, about the theoretical possibility of a hard worker becoming a politician. what will it mean for zelenskyi? well, as the current sociological ratings show, it will end for him, well, probably the loss of monopoly in power, that's at least. again, i'm not saying that, sociological polls are saying that. and he, of course, is very uncomfortable for him as a politician, maybe as the commander-in-chief of the army, which is probably convenient because he is successful, but as a politician who will compete with him, he is probably uncomfortable, but, oh... it seems to me that the phenomenon of zaluzhnyi is precisely that we should conclude that politics is returning, no matter what we talk about individual politicians, their

perspectives, politics itself is returning, and people at least perceive all these changes now in power, as political, not as professional, but as political, and it would be half the trouble, if it were not for one nuance, we no longer have democratic politics, it turns out that we have politics in part, but... politics in the conditions lack of freedom of speech, in the conditions of free speech competition, it is absolutely clear that military conditions in general, well, what kind of politics can be, it turns out not quite so correct, not quite fair, and to answer the question of how it will all end for the current government, it will be possible to say when a full-fledged, democratic, free politics will return to ukraine, then after the end of either this war or this... stage of the war, when free democracy returns to ukraine, it will be clear who and what has what rating, and by the way, it will be possible to measure ratings and be

convinced that it will be. the result of the elections, because whatever we say, until the end of hostilities, these are all very conditional things, but after the end of hostilities, we will look at their result, we will look at the borders, we will look at those geopolitical conditions, at the results of these geopolitical negotiations regarding ukraine, and this will have a decisive impact on the future of zelensky, and the future of the hostage, and of course, the future of all of ukraine. thanks, oleksiy, if... you want literally two minutes for a reaction to close this topic. of democracy is not when, but if it returns , this is my remark, it is not necessary, it is not guaranteed that everything will return to us even after the victory, well, secondly, regarding the ratings, i do not agree with the fact that the rating was exclusively the reason, the reason is disloyalty, and it seems to me that this worries the current government more than the rating, which, as

he rightly said, of actions, firstly, during the war it is very difficult to measure, secondly, very very quickly you can simply disappear, but loyalty is there or not. thank you, oleksiy. our second topic, friends, is the story that is today happened to serhiy pashynskyi, a former people's deputy of ukraine. today, he and his business partners were accused of causing losses in the state of almost 1 billion hryvnias. and this... story of 2014, that is , ten years ago, this story told by the sbu. let's listen. the suspicion was announced under articles 191 and 255 of the criminal code of ukraine. the ex-nard publicly denied being friends with his business partner, who owned a company involved in the criminal scheme. but, according to the collected evidence,

the people involved actively communicated , well, this is the most important conclusion that the people involved actively communicated, apparently in the messenger that pashinsky wrote on his facebook page, that this morning the sbu and nabu came to him with searches in the case of the nationalization of the oil products of the oligarch serhiy kurchenko from 2000 on march 22, i will head the national association of defense industry enterprises of ukraine, you don't need to look for me. search, during this time i never left ukraine, enterprises, members of the association produce drones, artillery, armored vehicles, ammunition, reb and radar stations. every day we experience the deaths of loved ones, russian bombings, audits of das, with, as the head of the association, the coordinator of many defense programs, i only have a request to the investigators, please do not distract me with kurchenko, a former oil official.

oleksandr katsuba, who was suspected of abusing his official position, stated that under the slogans of the nationalization of oil products by serhiy kurchenko, the oil products of naftogaz actually disappeared, well, 10 years ago frankly speaking, when something is taken out of such an old suitcase, some cases shake them and start moving again, the question arises, what is this done for, especially in wartime. when pashinsky was there in the first days of the war, despite everything, he did a lot by handing over weapons that were contracted for foreigners, so that, including tanya chornovul, used stugna during the defense of kyiv, and here, well, two years have passed, already 10 years in this case, this case was dragged out again, what do you think, gentlemen, about this, serhiy, well...

it seems that this matter is more political, because if there was really something so terrible, then everything would have been taken out, probably earlier, for which there was no need to wait 10 years. i don't like it at all when ukrainian law enforcement agencies have such a spoiler methodology, when they go to a press conference, tell all the cases in detail, well, you know that, well, these things need to be clarified in court, if you have a case , and this is by the way, well, i want to say about all law enforcement agencies in ukraine, so if you have a case, take it... everyone materials, take the case to court as soon as possible, and let's find out there in free competition with the defense, who is right, who is guilty, and all these materials can be made public there, if it is made public before that at a press conference, but at least the lawyers can to take all these materials in press conferences, to go to the european court and prove that there were terrible procedural violations, these are all cases,

accordingly, there is no point in carrying them out. because they were done with procedural violations.