because in fact, in addition to the fact that there are powers that no one chose from the supreme commander-in-chief, there is also legitimacy, that is , the perception by society of this or that person, this or that decision, action, and so on. the situation with the industrious, it goes far beyond the scope of authority, competence and so on. it's different, it's different. categories of things, but there was no one to learn from them, there was no one to learn from, because we live from a clean slate, as a young state, especially since the people who came in the 19th year, they faced problems that for them there were, well, mega problems, they were titanic tasks, and therefore it is clear that they had to be solved on the go, it is clear that

in such a situation, when this whole galaxy of people with unique experience will end up somewhere else, well, it is clear that they will become the government of contenders for the first papaha, it cannot be any other way, such are the laws of social life, the state machine, politics, but there is one more thing here, there is no politics in ukraine, what is in ukraine on... cannot be called masonic lie, but it cannot be called politics either, this is something else, political institutions do not work, and you and i have talked about this topic more than once, we talked, i said, and i will repeat it endlessly, we are building a democratic state in conditions of war, i say again, a democratic state, not a totalitarian state , what happened is classic. an example of the actions

of the heads of state, political leadership for a totalitarian state, such actions, such actions are not permissible in a democratic state. you have already mentioned, mr. roman, how it is perceived in the west, well, of course, in the current situation, and washington, and brussels, and bon, berlin, forgive me, they are talking about the fact that this is an internal matter of ukraine, and it is clear that... volodymyr zelenskyi has the right, legally and constitutionally, to make these personnel changes, but we are watching what is happening in the congress of the united states of america , and obviously this is not the best time for such personnel rotation, we see how trump is now gaining momentum in the united states of america, we see how putin rushes to prove that there is no ukraine, that he has the right to this part of the globe or . via tucker's interview

carson, we see that what is happening, that this is all, what we were waiting for at the end of the 24th year, began at the beginning of the 24th year, that is, not at the end of the 24th year, it is already happening to us now, the same trump mentioned by you said that the scandal is also big in the world, that during his presidency, at one of the meetings with the leaders of nato countries , he threatened to encourage. russia to attack those who do not pay entry or non-entry fees to the north atlantic alliance. let's listen to what he said, because it is also interesting. one of of the presidents of a great country stood up and asked: "sir, if we don't pay and russia attacks us, will you protect us?" i asked: "you haven't paid, you're overdue." he said, yes, let's say it happens. no, i would not defend you, more... mr.

roman, how do you see what is happening in the united states of america in relation to what is happening in russia, because it looks like putin and trump are starting to play the game against biden, against ukraine, and against the whole world, well, trump will come out later. of this game, a will putin enlist the support of trump, carson, or someone else? first, i follow trump's speeches pretty closely all the time, and the reaction to those speeches, and the moment that was talked about is the moment of the g7 meeting, and in this case the conversation. was

not between president trump and the president of another country, but the conversation took place between the president of the united states trump and the chancellor of nimes. merkel and merkel, such a conversation was, not by chance, these words, which you just showed, now caused a very emotional and lively reaction in germany, moreover, it was reacted to in nato, it was reacted to in france, in germany, in other nato countries, it was even reacted to in london, although london... usually about such things in the anglo-saxon block of ukraine or group of ukraine, they are silent ah, there are a few points here that i can't help but pay attention to, because these are two things, actually, what you just quoted, and the second is that you have to give

loans, it's, well, let's do it again well, i will use the mildest options, it is somewhat taken out of context. and the second is necessary understand who is mr trump? this conversation really took place, this conversation took place in the corridors, where not only trump and merkel were sitting in relaxation mode, it was not business, it was not for an official meeting, it was just a conversation. trump, not only communicates in a similar way in such conditions, he is very vulgar, and ... this is bolton in his book, he describes such things very well, and it must be said right away that he also regretted trump in this book, because he allows himself a lot of very nonsense, but even more trump allows during the election campaign, and what was

it was said then, at the meeting of the big seven on the sidelines, it was said from the point of view of pressure on... on the europeans, at that time, let me remind you, only two countries, only two states fulfilled the norms of payment of contributions to the nato defense budget. these are the first and second , so i want to touch on this issue once again, as it is titled, mr. serhiy, they added salt to it so much that in fact the situation that existed almost 6-7 years ago, it... was not in this the content that is currently being transmitted, and what trump allows himself to say in the election. i remember this one history since that time. second, this is the topic of what is being headlined in our country, not to provide aid

to ukraine. the content of the conversation was completely different. speaking, trump said that it is necessary to work. on the lendlease system, remember , you and i, like others, said that the law on lendlease was adopted, but it did not come into effect, dear listeners, lendlease is translated as transfer to rent. trump, despite the fact that he is a businessman, he is in these military things, well, he floats about, well, like an ax in water. he does not understand them, and having lost the word lendlease, he began to tell about some lease, about some return, about all these other things, i'm just saying that during the election campaign, if i hadn't

run for office so many times and hadn't heard everything that was being said in ukraine, then i would have accepted such messages for pure coin and title. which are written according to these signals, but i want to remind you that the lendles law has been adopted, the lease transfer, i will reveal it now, because after all, we need to talk about it, we will have it, we will have another 40 seconds, well, then others together, actually lenis is not a law began to act, they began to provide us with a non-refundable loan and assistance, but mr. serhiy, how to provide scrap metal, take what i say, but... it is true, instead of starting a lend-lease and releasing new products from the workshop, we tre 10 -th year we are fighting on metallobrukta, they say, the leopard is not like that, but the first leopard is the t-55, and we laugh at the fact that the russians

are taking the t-55 to the front. mr. roman, we have to end our conversation, sorry, there is not enough time to... continue talking to you for an interesting conversation, thank you for the conversation, this is roman bezsmertny, a politician, a diplomat, friends, we are working live and conducting a survey, would you like to see a stalwart in ukrainian politics now? we will look at the intermediate results of the poll: 43% - yes, 57% - no, these are the results of the television poll. in 15 minutes we will have serhiy taran and oleksiy holobutskyi. don't switch, stay with us. no one is immune to burst pipes, and even a small leak can cost you tens of thousands of hryvnias for repairs. unpack tv presents superpro insulating tape. strong, rubberized, waterproof tape that will instantly stop any leakage, and

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greetings, friends, live on the espresso tv channel, the verdict program, this is the second part of our today's issue, today in the program. the kurchenko fuel case, do ex-people's deputy pashynskyi came with searches, why right. the guards remembered the story of nine years ago. rotations in the command of the armed forces. the president made major personnel changes in the military leadership. will this open up new political prospects for zelenskyi? russia is at war with the entire west. on the eve of the election, with the result known in advance, putin is sending signals to the world through his agents. the same with direct tele'. we are live on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are currently watching us

live there, please like this videos, and also subscribe to our pages. in addition, during the entire broadcast , we are conducting a survey, we are asking you about whether you would like to see a professional in ukrainian politics, yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, the yes button, the no button, or write your thoughts, write your comments under this video. if you watch us on tv, take it. pick up your smartphone and vote if you see the future of the ukrainian politics 0800 211 381 no 0800 211 382, ​​all calls to these numbers are free... call, at the end of the program we will pick you up the results of this vote. i would like to introduce today's guests, they are serhii taran, political scientist and political technologist oleksiy holobutskyi. gentlemen, i am pleased to welcome you to our broadcast, thank you for being with us today. greetings, greetings to you. well, since you are the main specialists in political technologies

in ukraine, i cannot but ask you, what are you? do you think, do you see the future of zaluzhny in ukrainian politics, since these questions are answered by our viewers and tv viewers, it is interesting to hear your opinion, let's start with mr. serhiy, you know, from little depends on our opinion now, it is already in politics, we can see how much people understand it, if we look at the sociological polls, which in one way or another, but even now are ordered by various structures, we... see that in all of them there is a swindler, he doesn't have a party yet, but he already has a rating and there is already a scenario in which he even wins in any election. maybe , of course, until the elections themselves, this will not be the case, there all options are possible, but the fact that he is de facto now involved in politics, well, that is beyond doubt, the only issue

is that we don't have a politician, but his dismissal took place under a political pretext, that's why it's... certain difficulties, but you know, in ukrainian politics it often happened like that, you know, ukrainians are very they love those who, well, as they believe, are illegally insulted by the government, and the journey into big politics of many prominent ukrainian politicians began precisely with this, well, starting with kuchma and yushchenko and ending with a whole galaxy of various anti-corruption activists, activists who fought there against the government , their power is oppressive. and so after that, their foray into politics began, and now zaluzhny is going through this story in the same way, he is being filmed, as in the opinion of the citizens, sometimes illegally and completely without grounds, and of course, after that, zaluzhny’s foray into politics can absolutely begin, of course only for one condition, if he wants it himself, this is now the only thing in essence that determines his political future, it is his

own desire, well yes, of course, because general zaluzhnyi did not declare ... any political views and did not position himself as a politician, although during the war the head of the armed forces of ukraine is the person on whom both politics and business, and the future of the president, and the past of the president, and the life of every ukrainian, every person living in this state, depend. mr. oleksiy, how, if we talk about zaluzhny, i guess they married me without me, well, it’s about the same, so... whether zaluzhny wants it or not, but he was pushed into the top league of ukrainian politics, it’s unknown, when the elections will be held, of course, and it is not known whether he will have a party, will not, will he will not run for president, you would like to see a hard worker in ukrainian politics, ladies, i hear everything, i just

thought, this question is, you know, well... i want to support this wave, this is ours, this is our problem is huge , it is the existence of a problem, what is the program of zaluzhny, what are the views of zaluzhny, well, will you vote for zaluzhny, it turns out that zaluzhny is a racist, for example, yes, or a xenophobe, i don’t know, he has leftist views, he is a socialist, for example , well, we're just talking, because you know, that's it not only that, thank god, we still have... at least some kind of democracy left, and you cannot force a person into politics, well , by order, so to speak, yes, i absolutely do not agree with sergiy here, i have a lot of respect for zaluzhny, and i think he, well, he entered the history of ukraine in any case, he is a person who will stand next to the most outstanding historical figures, with petliura, with mikhnovsky, with bandera, there with many

others, but for now it is a military man. .. the active part of their biographies, yes, but not the political part, and whether there will be one this continuation, this, this, no one knows this answer, and again, he has a very difficult moment now, very difficult, i am sure that his fate as a future politician will be decided in the next two or three months, if he does not give a signal, does not something during this time, all those, me me, i understand, now they will start spitting at me there on the screen. directly and so on, yes, but i remember when i also told that this adventurer, that this person who changed owners several times, who from every tv screen... gave and everyone loved him, ran after him and collected autographs, everyone listened to him, i saw female fans who were just ready to tear him up, i

don't just want to name this person, so now we see he has -76 rating -76, yes, that's why i don't deserve this, of course due to the fact that he did not fit into this commune, we know nothing about him, except for his military exploits. he can, that is, he is an ideal candidate, of course for the presidency, ideal, yes, because if he continues, well, roughly speaking, if in two or three months he says, will hint that he is ready to engage in some kind of political activity, engage in, yes, then from now on, everyone will come up with, yes, they will think, the left will think that he is left -wing, the right-wing will think that he is right-wing, the centrists will think that he is a centrist, and the less he will talk, the more he will be liked by the ukrainian people, the problem... in the rest, the problem is that, ah, well, i disagree with serhiy again here , he was filmed legally, what is it

illegal to film at all commander-in-chief, i just can't imagine, this, this, which, what is this moment, his, he has a leader, supreme the commander-in-chief, he was removed from his post , during the war, this is a military post, a clear hierarchy, and he cannot be compared with all those politicians that i spoke about... serhiy, who started his career from retirement, he is a military man, it is in we are not there, we are not turkey, we are not greece in the 70s, we are not even libya, but in the 50s, 60s, yes, we do not have a formed military caste that plays a political role, well, just for the sake of due to the weakness of the democratic institutions that existed in those countries, i do not imagine that... then this will be a precedent i'm just imagining it, but this will fundamentally change our politics, i wish you success of course , i would very much like to see the next president

be a hard worker, but it won't be the elections we're used to, and it won't be a political career to which in principle, we are used to it, so it will be completely different, and those who are now very strongly pushing the philistine politician will not like it, i have no doubt about it, well , listen, the same goes for politics... hopefully zelensky also came, in principle, this is the first, yes, of course, of course, this is a unique situation, the second unique situation can be in ukraine, that is, it is the first and the second, here the most interesting thing will be, and what is the role of zaluzhny and this release that took place, how, how will it generally affect the future of ukraine, and the army, and the front, and of course president zelenskyi, because, if... the acting presidents make mistakes, then they have to do a lot, if, if we lose the war, then i think

no one will be interested in the political future of zalushny, nor in the political future of zelensky, and this is the maximum we can count on , it is for the government in exile, and therefore, so to speak, it seems to me not at all no, not on this topic, well, but, but zelenskyi did not release zaluzhnyi to sit in... in exile in principle, and obviously one of the reasons was, this is precisely the rating of the people’s trust, serhiy, how is zaluzhnyi for zelensky from the point of view of zelensky's future, who, who is so diligent in zelensky's path to the second presidency? well, i will answer first, when i spoke about the perception of zaluzhny, i did not speak. that, for example, he was removed unfairly, i emphasized how in the opinion of the voters, he was removed unfairly, as well when i spoke about what kind

of political future he has, i spoke about the opinion of the voters, you know that, our voter always creates idols for himself, especially without asking questions about their ideology, and you can’t do anything about it today, especially under during the war, voters will pay less attention to ideology, unfortunately, by the way, and will pay more attention to some leadership qualities, especially if this leader is from a military background, they will guess what ideology he is from and vote for it, and they will come up with very serious stories, why he was removed unfairly, although the share is not, well, so to speak, well, i want to emphasize not legality, but not justice in the fact that he was removed, of course, because the only reason for which he was removed is his political opinion. everything, not his professional qualities, not his failures or failures, but precisely this, and we all understand this very well, and this is exactly how people will perceive it, and that is why

they can wear it on their sleeve. politics, of course, i emphasize once again on the condition that he wants to, because in fact, well, it does not seem that he is very interested in politics, and this it is also absolutely normal, why should a military , professional, successful person be interested in politics, in general, it would take us more than an hour to talk about what happens to military heroes who go into politics, because there are completely different stories, they are completely different, opposite and very successful, for example , like de gaulle, there are less successful ones, well, for example, like pinochet or... there are other stories, but in any case, we are talking now about what, about the theoretical possibility of an industrious person going into politics, what it will be for zelensky? well, as the current sociological ratings show, it is for him it will end, well, probably with the loss of monopoly in power, this is at least, this is again, this is not me saying, this is what sociological polls say, and he, of course, is very uncomfortable for him as a politician, maybe as, as

a commander. charviy is probably convenient , because he is successful, but as a politician who will compete with him, he is probably inconvenient, but it seems to me that the phenomenon of zaluzhny is precisely that we should conclude that politics is returning, so that there we did not talk about individual politicians, their prospects, politics itself is returning, and people at least perceive all these changes in power now as political, not as professional, but as political and... it would be half the trouble if it were n't for one nuance: we no longer have democratic politics, we have partial politics there is, but politics in conditions of lack of freedom of speech, in conditions of free competition, it is absolutely clear that in military conditions in general, well, what can politics be, it turns out not quite so correct, not quite fair, and to answer the question, how will it all end on for the current government, it will be possible

to say that... then, when a full-fledged , democratic free politics returns to ukraine, then, after the end of either this war or this stage of the war, when free democracy returns to ukraine, it will be clear who and what has what rating, and until things, it is then that you will be able to measure the ratings and be convinced that this will be the real result of the elections, because whatever we say, until the end of hostilities, these are all very conditional things, but after the end of hostilities, we will look at their ... result, we will look at the borders, we will look at those geopolitical conditions, the results of those geopolitical negotiations regarding ukraine, and this will have a decisive impact on the future of zelensky, and the future of the hostage, and, of course, the future of all of ukraine. thank you, oleksiy, if you want, literally two minutes for a reaction, regarding democracy, regarding democracy not when, but if it returns. this is my

remark, it is not necessary, it is not guaranteed that we will have everything back even after victory, well, secondly, regarding the ratings, i do not agree with the fact that the rating was the only reason, the reason - disloyalty, and this, it seems to me, worries the current government more than the rating, which, as serhiy rightly said, first of all , it is very difficult to measure during a war, and secondly , you can simply disappear very, very quickly, but loyalty is whether it is there or not . thank you, oleksiy, our second topic, friends, is the story that happened today with serhiy pashinsky, a former people 's deputy of ukraine, today he and his business partners were accused of causing losses to the state of almost 1 billion hryvnias, and this story is from 2014, that is, ten years ago, this story that speaks

sbu, listen. the suspicion was announced under articles 191 and 255 of the criminal code of ukraine. the ex-nard publicly denied being friends with his business partner, who was the owner of the company involved in the criminal scheme, but, as evidence collected shows, those involved were actively communicating. well, this, this is the most important conclusion, that the persons involved were actively communicating, probably in the messenger. what pashynsky wrote on his facebook page that this morning the sbu and nabu came to search him in the case of nationalization oil products of oligarch serhii kurchenko. since march 22, 2000, i have been the head of the national association of defense industry enterprises of ukraine, there is no need to search or search me, during this time i have never left ukraine, the participating enterprises of the association produce drones, artillery,

armored vehicles. ammunition equipment of the repta station.