thank you for being with us, thank you first of all natalsa didenko, thank you for being with us , we support the armed forces of ukraine, we donate, we support each other, we will get a lot, i say goodbye to you until tomorrow, take care and stay with espresso, because for the verdict program now, let's watch it together, good evening, we are from ukraine. glory to ukraine, this is the verdict program, my name is serhiy rudenko, i congratulate everyone and wish everyone good health. for the next two hours, we will talk about ukraine, the world, the war, and our victory. today in the program. caesar kunikov went to bottom. nato congratulated ukraine on another great naval victory. what's left of russia's black sea fleet. additional artillery and air defense. 19. the meeting in

the ramstein format took place in a virtual format due to the illness of the us secretary of defense. economy booking. the verkhovna rada and the president's office are developing different concepts, from lines to mobilization for an additional tax. for the next hour, we will talk about this and other things with our guests, people's deputy of ukraine fedor venislavskyi, general ihor romanenko and political scientist maxim. intelligent the second part of our program will feature political scientists ihor reiterovych and oleg sahakyan. however , before starting our big conversation, let's watch a video of how, near alupka, near the shores of the temporarily occupied crimea, soldiers of the main intelligence department of the ministry of defense of ukraine sank the large landing ship caesar kunikov of the black sea fleet of the russian federation with the help of naval drones. magura, let's see.

friends, in addition to the tv broadcast, we also work on our platforms in youtube and facebook, for those who are currently watching us live there, please like this video, subscribe to our pages and take part in our vote. today we ask you this, do you support? postponement of mobilization for additional tax, yes no, please vote on youtube, respectively yes, no, or leave your comment under this video, if you are watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote if you support the idea deferrals for mobilization for additional tax 0800 211 381 no 0800 211 382, all calls to these numbers are free...

vote, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. and we have our first guest on the phone, this is fedir vienislavskyi, people's deputy of ukraine, member of the verkhovna rada committee on national security, defense and intelligence, former representative of the president in the verkhovna rada of ukraine. mr. fedor, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. i congratulate you, glory to ukraine. glory to heroes. so, according to the information of the ukrainian pravda in the office of the president and the verkhovna rada's committee on issues economy of development are developing two different concepts of economic reservation , military service for those who have an official salary of more than uah 30-35 per month, or for those for whom the company will pay an additional tax of uah 20,000, in particular for fops, now the draft law that has been adopted in the first reading, preparations are being made for the second reading, well, probably for the final approval, when will it take place? what can you

say about these short stories that deal with the economic reservation of the mobilized? well , firstly, really in the second reading, i think that the draft law on... in the conditional, with the conditional name on mobilization, on improving mobilization issues will be adopted either at the end of february or at the beginning of march, because now until february 21 legislative amendments to this draft law adopted in the first reading, there are already about 30,050 of them and they continue to come in, so i hope that as soon as the deadline for submitting amendments and proposals ends. the committee on national security and defense and intelligence will consider these promptly enough proposals and will adopt the appropriate conclusion for with recommendations for consideration of this draft law in the hall of the parliament. as for the issue of the so-called economic reservation, which you are talking about now, we

considered these issues related to the reservation of conscripts for enterprises, institutions, and organizations, when we analyzed both in the open and... closed session of our committee, the preliminary text of the bill, which was approved by the cabinet of ministers, after which the issue of reservation was withdrawn, is one of the very important from the point of view in view of the relationship between the economic development of the state and the need to ensure the protection of territorial integrity, sovereignty, i.e. the actual fulfillment of military duty, which is enshrined in the constitution, at the moment i am not convinced that any economic levers will be accepted and they will be, well, let's say so , will be included in the text of the law, moreover, we agreed during the preliminary review in the committee together with representatives of the ministry of defense, the ministry of economy, the ministry of strategic industry museum that the issue

reservations will be decided by law only as a framework, that is, a certain model will be developed, which criteria will determine the criteria for future reservations. and the cabinet of ministers of ukraine, on the basis of legally established criteria, will already be able to clearly define the procedure for booking conscripts at the level of resolutions, and this especially applies primarily to the sphere of the military-defense complex, the military-industrial complex, as well as enterprises that ensure the functioning of critical industries, because indeed the question is very important, as i said, on the one hand, we must ensure the mobilization and call for the mobilization of those soldiers. which will replenish our losses and form reserves, on the other hand , we should not destroy the economy, so i am convinced that this issue will be the subject of such long discussions, some optimal model will be worked out, i think that the government will be able to at the level of sub-legal regulations act

of resolution to determine the main criteria, or the details of this process, the criteria will be defined in the law. chairman of the verkhovna rada committee on economic development dmytro natalukha in an interview. ukrainformu confirmed that the concept of economic reservation is currently under discussion and explained what problems it can solve, let's listen: this model of increasing the military contribution and military levy is voluntary for a specific employee, it actually allows you to ignore external factors, who will be the president of the united states, who orban will be in a good mood, we, at the expense of... our own ukrainian business, are beginning to accumulate additional financial resources in order to provide for the army, so this is the answer to whether armor is taking place for the military levy, this is the first story , the second story, it is also a matter of the fact that you

do not pay, it is not clear where, due to the fact that it is a military levy, this money goes exclusively for credit, it is as if money that has a specific purpose , the third story that we do n't care about. the forces are provided exclusively from ukrainian taxes, not a single penny of all our partnership money goes to the army. as i understand it, mr. fedor, this draft law aims, among other things, to detinize the economy, that is, if it wants to the company has employees who work legally, pay taxes, then, accordingly, in this way, the company can book so that these... employees do not leave, are not mobilized, but for this the company must work in the white, do i understand correctly? well , the idea is being discussed, i emphasize once again, but what dmytro natalukha said is absolutely correct, because we have to look into the future and ensure, at

the expense of our own development of our own economy , the formation of the state budget, which will to be directed partly to the sphere of the military, well, to the sphere of defense and security sector. defense security, but again , we have to be realistic, and anyone can open the law on the state budget for 2024 and see that, unfortunately, 2/3 of the funds are external borrowing, we can count on the fact that we will very quickly let's create an economic model that will actually cover such a deficit of the state budget, this is , well, excessive optimism, although we need to work on it, and indeed the committee on economic development is discussing in great detail various models, and they were just during the consideration of the previous bill, which the cabinet withdrew at our defense security committee, they were paying attention to exactly what i was talking about at the beginning of our conversation with you, that the economy... may not to endure a shortage of qualified personnel and then we will get the opposite, the opposite

consequence, the opposite consequences of such a mobilization process, therefore we must also ensure the interests of enterprises, which in fact indirectly also ensure the sphere of security and defense, but the process once again i emphasize a very difficult one, well, for me as a constitutionalist, it is somewhat dubious , to put it mildly, that at the expense of say... let's say, indirectly, the payment of some cash contribution, you can get a postponement from mobilization, because it is, let's say, dubious from the point of view equality of constitutional rights, freedoms of man and citizen, whoever can, or whoever can pay the company some additional money in the form of a military levy or other taxes, will receive from the line of mobilization, those companies that are unable to pay there will not receive a significant amount, so i think that... the issue is still a matter of deep discussions, and in the final version, i think, we will find the

optimal model that will comply with the constitution, will ensure that balance interests of security, defense and economic development. even before the adoption of this law, we see how in some towns, villages or settlements people begin to organize some kind of protests or speak out against the representatives. and express their dissatisfaction that theirs men can be mobilized there, and this is also a very dangerous trend during the war, in what way do you think the state and the authorities can prevent this, so that it does not happen, that is, in the conditions of war, are such actions permissible at all, if are unacceptable, then how should the law react to... similar actions, like, well, how it was in space, for example, well, unfortunately, we really have such

a demarcation of peaceful life there in those regions, which fortunately are minimally affected military operations, i.e. are minimally under fire or limited and that part of the life of ukraine, which is in fact in a continuous state of war, these are those who take part in hostilities, those who live directly in... zones that are close to the territory of the russian federation or to the zone of hostilities, so this this is precisely one of the key issues, for which this draft law, which we are talking about now, is being developed, because despite even the current norms of the law on mobilization preparation and mobilization, where all measures are related to ensuring the implementation of mobilization, they are distributed among various between various government bodies, bodies... social protection bodies, education bodies and

so on, to date, in fact, we have received a situation where representatives of only the territorial center for the recruitment of social support carry out appropriate mobilization actions, which, by and large the account should be carried out by a number of other subjects or different subjects, and therefore in this law, which we are talking about. in the first reading, the powers of local self-government bodies and enterprises are specified, institutions, organizations, in order for it to be, you know, not such a fragmented activity of only representatives of the military command, territorial centers of social support staffing, but also a consolidated activity of all components of this process, certainly, in order to avoid social tension, it is necessary in addition to actual mobilization actions to carry out such a well... i would say, clarifying, maybe even in some aspect propaganda activity,

regarding the need to preserve the state, restore the territorial integrity of our state, and we understand that the potential of russia, unfortunately, even despite the sanctions that are working, it still remains quite powerful, and without mobilization, without additional replenishment of our armed forces, other military formations, we hope that in we will succeed very quickly... restoring territorial integrity is hardly worth it, so it is necessary to do all this in a complex and the law that we are discussing and subordinate legal acts, they are also focused on this during the discussion. we drew the committee's attention to this first of all representatives of the ministry of defense, because, you know, mobilization cannot be ensured only by such, well, coercive measures of influence, it is necessary to demonstrate the benefits of the fact that a person will join the armed forces, that he will receive some social benefits, guarantees, help in business development ,

future education and so on, that is, it has to be a comprehensive approach, and we are working on it, i think, just... by the second reading, that will be one of the very important tasks that we have to achieve. and why, mr. fedor, volodymyr zelenskyi, as the supreme commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine , was not the leader of this process, the leader of changes to legislation and the creation of a new law on mobilization, since this is his absolute authority and generally a constitutional duty, why was he not the initiator, why is he constantly talking about what is wrong with this law... there is something wrong, there, the military is asking me to mobilize 500,000, he is the supreme commander, that is, the entire vertical that is in the state, it obeys him, well, the cabinet of ministers of ukraine, as the subject of the law of legislative initiative, and together with the military command with the ministry of defense, they implemented this, this idea, the president at various meetings that he holds, he only identified the key

problems that need to be determined, by joint efforts, respectively, of the ministry of defense and others... their ministries, central executive bodies, our committee, we have worked out a model that should satisfy both society and the defense security sector. by the way, about the security and defense sector, during the last week there was a large personnel rotation, that is, 16 generals were dismissed from their positions headed by the head of the armed forces of ukraine, is it appropriate in your opinion during the war. to carry out such a large personnel rotation, because these are all generals who fought since 2014, these are all combat generals, and they were dismissed in different ways, someone learned from the press about these dismissals, someone learned in another way whether there are now in there is some necessity for this, what can you say as a member of the profile committee, well, first of all, let's say

yes, i don't want to offend anyone, but i think, well, i consider it extremely unlikely that... someone learned about his dismissal from the internet or from the press, because i know the previous reasons, the previous, or rather, the cases when they were fired, there were also loud statements at a time when i know that the relevant military leadership was informed that they would be released there in a week, in two weeks , and so on, so there is such a political psychological underpinning or game on the part of some military, but as for your key question, is it worth it was with... to change, well, i think you know, well, personally, i am subjective, i do not see the expected result that the whole society expected, for example, from the hostilities in the 23rd year, we remember what were hopes for the spring-summer-autumn company, they planned to free large areas,

unfortunately, this did not happen and it is probably necessary to make some personnel decisions here so that the tasks... which society actually sees for our armed forces, they were executed, so let's wait there, well, let's say 3-4 months until the summer and we will see the results of this personnel rotation, i am convinced that they will demonstrate the fidelity of the decisions made by the president, no, the question here is not whether it is true or not, because the president has the right to fire according to the constitution even if all of them were to be appointed a new head of the committee, that is not the question here. the only question is that, well, apparently, ukrainians still need to know what valery zaluzhnyi was fired for, it was still necessary to articulate publicly, because it is still unclear, since one of the versions, that it is some kind of political ambitions of the industrious there or something else, i.e. do you know what the industrious was fired for? no, look

, well, first of all, we understand that two years of such an intense war, which ukraine is waging against the russian federation, the state that attacked our territory, is an extremely great psychological pressure on a person who makes relevant decisions, i b, well, general zaluzhny demonstrated efficiency during the first or second year of the war, but , unfortunately, fatigue accumulates, and the president, this is how you are now demonstrating on on the screen, absolutely adequately assessed the merits of general zaluzhnyi, he was awarded the title of hero of ukraine, but i think it is necessary to change some and... tactical, strategic approaches to the conduct of hostilities, and there is hope that general syrskyi will demonstrate that we can fight a little in a different way and achieve other goals, so let's wait, then we will already analyze... the truth or falsity of the decisions, and by the way, just at the next meeting of the committee, we will listen to the new commander-in-chief of the armed forces, about the tasks that he sees in front of him, that

are set for him by the higher political leadership and the chief of the general staff, that is, he will be informed in closed mode by the committee about precisely the questions that you are asking now, so i think that soon in a fairly short-term perspective society will be able to evaluate the results and effectiveness of such personnel changes. thank you, mr. fedor, it was fedir vienislavskyi, people's deputy of ukraine. friends, we are working live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for for those who are watching us live there, please like this video and vote in our poll. today we ask you about this, do you support the idea of ​​deferment from mobilization for additional tax, yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, if you have your opinion, please write in the comments below this video, if you ... watch us on tv, pick up your phone or smartphone and vote if you support a moratorium on mobilization for tax additional tax 0800 211 381 no 0800 211

382 all calls to these numbers are free, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. ihor romanenko, lieutenant general in the reserve, former deputy to... chief of the general staff of the armed forces of ukraine. mr. general, i welcome you, thank you for being with us today. congratulations. mr. general, since during the last week there were many comments and some evaluations of the actions of the chief of the armed forces of ukraine zaluzhnyi, and this large rotation, the general rotation, which the president conducted zelensky at the end of last week, i can't help but ask you how you... as a professional military man, as a person who once led the ukrainian army, one of the people who led the ukrainian army, how do you perceive such personnel rotation during the war? as

a risky step, but we saw what had accumulated, let's say, maybe not agreed upon, i would say a contradiction between the supreme commander-in-chief and the commander-in-chief. and it was not for the benefit, and let's say, mistakes that were from the point of view of strategic level management in the past year, and they had a basis precisely in these actions, well, this is a separate issue in the construction of strategic management, which would be in accordance with the legislation. it is built in such a way that the supreme commander-in-chief is political, forms the military-political, performs these tasks at the level of the defense forces of ukraine, i

emphasize this, and not only the armed forces , the commander-in-chief in martial law, and general syrsky, as the commander of the ground forces, by the way , who is responsible for the procurement centers are closed to him, that is, for these processes of the armed... forces subordinate to commander-in-chief, but the further it went, the more it happened that if the supreme commander communicated and worked with general syrsky last year in the bakhmud direction, general zaluzhnyi was carrying out the tasks of, say, the paris region of action for a counteroffensive on the berdyansky melitopol direction, but what about the operation that planned, most likely... it was the most profitable kherson direction, but the enemy knew about it, his intelligence, and therefore they crossed it by blowing up the dam, and, therefore, for a long time

by the end of the summer, the resource was accumulated only for one direction, how many different views on the implementation happened, and therefore the political direction of bakhmutskyi... and therefore , the two directions in zaporizhzhia already in the month of june realized that they had the strength and resources to advance there is no further than the first line, and therefore the rational approach was that it was necessary to stop the actions of these counteroffensives due to the fact that there were not enough forces so that the enemy not only such as aviation, but also... missiles, and a number of others, but this was very difficult to do because society was ideologically, determined, overheated for...

quick success, for a counter-offensive, achieving results, and all this did not happen, and in such conditions , all three military-political officials were to deal with and take responsibility for what happened back then it was necessary to pass a strategic defense, there was still some resource left for a counteroffensive, and the relationship between them did not contribute to this, so apparently they... made an analysis, conclusions critical of this, and the supreme commander made a decision to continue working in this state not normal, personally contradictions arose earlier, because at the beginning of the year the commander-in-chief , general zaluzhnyi, said that the military was needed, i personally heard when the president confirmed that the military applied for him to mobilize, replenish, but at what expense,

but how would it affect many things, the economy is easier, and now we are already trying in an accelerated manner, but the accelerated verkhovna rada has its own procedures, it does not work, the cabinet of ministers is still trying to improve this situation with the work of the centers equipment , but it will speed it up by another six months, there are not enough people to call up, they need to be trained, equipped, everything else, that is , a strategic mistake... that they have not done this since the beginning of last year and the consequences are now like this, and this is our internal task, if one another reason was the supply of weapons , stretched over six months, during which the russians built a strong defense in zaperizhzhia, and therefore all these actions in all these three directions, and then they also decided to connect the dry and the kherson direction, which is still the most promising, but the forces on on

fourth all the more was not enough, and that is why this is such a very state of affairs now, the conditions for the actions of the commander-in-chief of the syrian general are quite difficult, well, it is enough that he enters in such conditions, and in order for it not to be successful , he must be provided with resources, so they are talking about he formulated and already answered plan b, if there was an offensive counter and so on, and about what plan b, if we do not carry out the plan. i.e. the execution of the tasks of a strategic defense operation, the purpose of which is to stop the advance of the enemy, first of all, to destroy as many forces and means as possible, and then somewhere, if it succeeds, talk about gaining time in order to accumulate reserves for conducting a counteroffensive operation, therefore, in my opinion, these are the schedules, and that is why

there was a replacement, and... not just commander-in-chief novoosyrskyi, who due to a degree in functional duties izkam rose, because he did not become the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, but the commander-in-chief, according to our legislation, of the defense forces of ukraine, more broadly, it is also not easy, and hence there is quite a lot of risk of further actions, well we will keep an eye on... how general syrskyi will take up his new position, and accordingly, new commanders and separate commanders of separate areas in the ukrainian army, today, the general staff of the armed forces of ukraine confirmed the information about the destruction of the large amphibious ship of the black sea fleet caesar kunikov in black sea, it happened on the night of february 14, and...

of course, the russian public so modestly silences this event, but the main intelligence department of the ministry of defense of ukraine confirms that this impression happened ship by the magura naval drone, and already commenting on the destruction of another russian military ship in the black sea, nato secretary general jen stoltenberg noted that the expulsion of the black sea fleet of the russian federation from the western part of the black sea... a great achievement and a great victory for the ukrainians, and according to intelligence, most of the crew of this large amphibious ship, which was destroyed in the black sea, could not be saved, representative of the main intelligence department of the ministry of defense andriy yusov said about this, everything went according to plan, as a result, the enemy ship was destroyed and it cannot be restored, along with the cargo there was ammunition, and how many

people died there. it is not known for sure yet.