public activists and journalists , including, including, in order to more constructively discuss certain issues, not to destructively throw emotional slogans, there to overthrow the president, there to return the meritorious person, there is something else , there is to distribute money to everyone in a row, that is, this is not right, this not a statesmanlike approach, which does not take into account the complexity of society and the complexity of the current situation, but we see that this is partly played by russian propaganda, but, by the way, it is not acting directly with its stupid messages to ukraine, but often... mediated through the western media, when the washington post, cnn, new york times publish a certain article, which later turns out to be of russian authorship, but which, nevertheless, begins to sow certain such messages that are supposed to destroy internal unity, it is picked up by ukrainian journalists and activists, who spread it on quotes and refer to the authority of the western media. in addition, we have, of course, a large internal position that does not like the president and the office of the president, and they use it. each

problematic situation, rather with the selfish motives of shaking the president and punishing him, and not, say, with the motives of achieving unity and defeating the enemy, unfortunately, that is, politics is returning to ukraine despite the difficult situation, and one must, of course , be very careful not to harm in the first place turn to myself, but thank you very much, mr. anton, excuse me, we are in the caucasus, excuse me, we have the next stop after the sociologists, who somehow manage without counter-intelligence agents, decree. thank you very much, anton hrushetskyi, executive director of the kyiv international institute of sociology, was with us. now we have volodymyr kobchak, kobchak, head of the south caucasian branch of the army research center for conversion and disarmament. he is addressing us from the hero city of tbilisi. i definitely envy him, because i'll finish and go drink all the lviv coffee, he can

drink... well, good georgian wine after dinner on sunday and have a barbecue, but what are you going to do? good health, mr. volodymyr, thank you for finding time for us, my greetings, dear viewers, congratulations mykola, colleagues, look, i have you such a question is not georgian, this statement in munich by the prime minister of armenia, mr. pashinyan, that... "azerbaijan is still planning a full-scale war against armenia, it is felt that this is a real threat, azerbaijan really wants armenia as such not to existed because the word large-scale war, well, for me it means the disappearance of iran, as it is precisely for me that the large-scale war of russia against ukraine means, russia wants ukraine to be gone." similar theses. official revenge, i now see as

a kind of defensive reaction to preemption, if if you want, of course , let's put it this way, the threat of escalation is already on the territory recognized by international treaties on the internationally recognized territory from the side of azerbaijan or by the hands of azerbaijan, it is not zero, it exists, but it is necessary to emphasize such a point that if it happens, god forbid, this is there will no longer be... the azerbaijani-armenian, let's say, dimension, in my opinion, it will be mainly russian history, because, for example, even after the 44-day war, from the end of the 20th year, and even more so after azerbaijan not without moderation with moscow, not without negotiation, let's say yes, neatly with moscow, fully restored its territorial integrity by returning karabakh, but as a result of the counter-terrorist...

operation last year, the kremlin would really like the following formula, that is, azerbaijan makes aggression against armenia with its armed forces, enters the sunig region, or as in they say to azerbaijan, in zangizur, russia is running away, this leads to internal unrest in armenia, nikol pashinyan's regime is overthrown, and russia is definitely saving armenia in quotes again, the azerbaijani armed forces can. come up even with this schedule, armenia is already under the new government, under the government of the revanchists, under a completely pro-russian format, let's say so, turning into an er, let's say, a union state with russia, belarus, or, let's say, a hardening of belarus, but the main point, the conclusion against this background, if even now volodymyr kavchak and mykola veresny discuss this scenario, but it is definitely taken into account, including the consequences in baku, so i consider it, and when i return. to

the beginning as a defensive reaction on the part of the official yerevan against the background of the latest escalation of e-e with on the 12th and 13th of february , there was silence on one of the sections of the state border, by the way, the first since september of last year, on the other hand, i see that, of course, moscow would very much like what i am talking about to happen, but it is not on time and not, let's say so, on the agenda according to my personal assessments now in baku, that is, i would ask such a more philosophical question, but i don't want to, i would like to go back to georgia, i... where are you , how in principle can you imagine the situation, and am i imagining it correctly, that's how i would ask the question, sir volodymyr, is it really true that the majority of the population of georgia today is pro-ukrainian, and

therefore the question for me is how can there be a pro-russian government with a pro-ukrainian population, or am i mistaken, and in fact half of the population of georgia may be pro-ukrainian, but the other half pro-russian. no, er, it cannot be your last thesis, yes, because really, according to various estimates, the total majority of the population of georgia is on pro-ukrainian positions, and in principle, b, especially after february 22, i tell you more i will say that, according to various sociological polls in georgia , at least 70-75% of the population of georgia is in favor of european or euro-atlantic integration, and in such conditions, the current georgian government still looks like there is no alternative, well, following such, in

my opinion, strange policy, do not tease moscow , that's why, well, you can speak a lot on this topic, the main one, in my opinion, is the internal political pre-election. the asset of the ruling team of binzin ivanishvili is the dispersion and complete impotence of the georgian the opposition, here we absolutely seem to have discussed this in the past inclusion of your companies, they say a lot that someone there cannot unite before the execution, they are georgians, this impression is that they cannot unite even during the execution, this is the impression i have, i see now... a picture from the air, and here we have, well, in general , an oxymoron, when two delegations, against this background , visited munich, therefore, in principle, someone who understands a little about georgian aviation, politics, well, no contradiction actually exists now , i will explain why, having

pro-ukrainian positions, having pro-european positions, in general , a situation may occur at the end of the year when georgians... society against the background of the opposition is in the state i mentioned, it will accept the main thesis, the main strategy of the ruling team, the main thing is that we did not allow war, you see, they cynically say, if they are instigated, you will support ukraine, do one, two, three, they say, what do you want batumi to turn into mariupol, that is, so cynically, they brazenly play on such theses, and i have no idea complaints of the general population of georgia, because such anti-war theses, they work, they do not work objectively, then i simply do not want to ever generalize about georgia, because for me, georgia, for example, is volunteers who are not only, let's say, in relative terms figures per capita, the so-called foreign legion represents georgia, in

principle, the largest number of foreigners who fight for ukraine, more than 50 have lost their lives, and this is still used... a small balance of domestic politics of the current georgian government , mr. volodymyr, there is another question, such a general one, you know, do i understand correctly that the south caucasus is now, in spite of everything, in a more or less stable situation, it cannot be said that there are any threats in azerbaijan, so to speak, aliyev , can not. to say that there are so many threats to pashinyan in armenia, one cannot say that any radical changes are possible in georgia, that is, there is the russian factor, there is the turkish factor, there are many different factors, there is

the reorientation of armenia from russia to the west, and, but this is not such a heart-breaking process, no such, you know, the speeches of the population are comprehensive, whether the government is there. began to scold russia already in the loudspeakers, not for nothing, in the microphone, and if in georgia the way it is, in azerbaijan the way it is, and in armenia, well, approximately the way it is. i agree with your last thesis, well , look, all three countries of the south caucasus in one way or another in different proportions, because each topic is separate, it is desecrable, all three countries of the south caucasus, they are in the so-called ecosystem of russia, that is, this is also a circumvention of sanctions, and the support is not there only under the sanctioned goods of the russian economy, there are logistical things and other things related to the regimes, well, the situation here is very patchy, for example, in azerbaijan, despite the fact that all the elections, including ilham aliyev's premature ones, remind in a certain way of such

a day of babak, but right now, what happened on february 7, for the first time, ilham aliyev, he is not only legal within the framework of the legislation of azerbaijan, but he has total legitimacy among the azerbaijani population, and the main motive in the sense that here definitely from the restoration of territorial integrity, that is, some format there ... in the form of the influence of iran on the part of the russian federation to shake up the situation, well, here , let's say, they have opportunities at the highest levels of power, let's say this, because, for example, i agree with experts who say , that the so-called revolution from above is going on in azerbaijan, launched since the 19th year, when ilham aliyev is trying quite carefully to purge, including pro-russian cadres, who were left there as a legacy from his father and so on. this process is very painful, that is, there the influences are quite total, but in the classical way

to the extent that someone will rise from within , well, the positions of ilham aliyev seem unshakable, this is a medical fact, how long the factor of victory in the war, the unconditionally liberated territory will be sold to the electorate , how much this product will be constantly fresh, we will see, the situation is critically different in armenia, because the russian federation does not stop trying. to shake the regime of nikol pashinyan, but already in irmen russia is becoming so toxic not only among armenians, but also in irmen karabakh that they have to, once again, ukrainians will understand, put, do betting on outright freaks in armenian politics, who have absolutely no electoral prospects, let's say so, that's why there is only an escalation scenario, incitement and chaos of protests, would they like to do it with the hands of azerbaijan, we talked about it in... in the first block speech, the situation here is quite delicate, nikol pashinyanyan, well

, he is not so much turning away from russia as he is trying to imitate and keep a balance with the kremlin, which has total influence in the economy and not only in the security sector of defense in armenia and to balance between the search for possible, let's say, airbag alternatives to moscow. well, georgia strategically tolerates, as the speaker of the parliament said. we , we, we talked about, i'm sorry, mr. volodymyr , i have one last question, but it is very important, that's what hurts, you say that it's still, as they said, when the backyard of the russian federation, but this impression even from your analysis, that this is such a yard where the russian federation is gradually retreating, as if to say that if the armenians totally dislike russia, sometimes they hurt, then imagine, without... from a revolution from the outside, a change of power, not power, vector, in

armenia it does not work, and the same in azerbaijan, if there is a purge of pro-russians , and maybe about some others, but still the russians do not feel strong there, and about georgia , you say not because it is pro-russian, because the government there is pro-russian, but because the opposition does not know how to cope, did i understand you correctly, that the vector and trends are anti-russian? definitely strategic trends, what is the thesis that strategically, russia has already attacked ukraine on a full scale strategically lost, it is absolutely relevant and objective, but the problem of the region as a whole is that the wounded beast, russia, which is gradually losing its influence and opportunities, in the kremlin does not consider itself the loser, it is now taking drastic steps and the potential that she now has left, and it is enough for the south caucasus. these three capitals are waiting to see how russia will steer one way or another to a new, fundamentally new

status quo in geopolitical realities, after the ukrainian front or on the ukrainian front. they objectively expect this, formally, the region as a whole is in the frontal format of azerbaijan, and the region as a whole is , let's say, in the middle of the so-called sandwich between russia and iran, which is the most stable military-political alliance at the moment and they... act in complete coordination, and the sagging russian federation, now it is a completely new level of challenges and threats for the region, but in relation to georgia, you understand, well, the authorities. sorry, yes, volodymyr kopchak, head of the south caucasian branch of the center for army, conversion and disarmament research from tbilisi, sorry again mr. volodymyr, so that our next guest is avdiivka, and we need to talk about this avdiivka in more detail. we thank mr. volodymyr kobchak, the head of the south caucasian branch of the center for army research, disarmament conversion,

i hope he is not offended and will be with us on the air in the future. musa maghamedov, people's deputy of ukraine. general director of the avdiiv coke chemical plant from 12 to 19 years. good health mr. musa magamedov. we will also talk about the plant, but a very interesting point was suggested to me by the editors who had the previous one conversation with mr. magamedov, it is about the so-called zhduns, that is, people who are waiting, and there are zhduns who are waiting for the ukrainian army, and there are zhduns who are waiting for the russian army. but first about your plant, mr. musam ahamedov , thank you for finding time for us, thank you very much, what is it, what kind of plant is it, what does it do and how many people worked there, so i would ask, well, to understand its purpose , well , what kind of factory is this, so i won't count three for 2

km or 25 for 13 km, but if you tell us how many people worked, we'll imagine it, please. there is no more, because you need to understand that cold preservation for such powerful batteries is, well, it is very, very aggressive, ah, and there is, well, i believe, as a coke chemist, that these batteries,

uh, more will no longer work, it is impossible, and i understand that there will be no start-up, you just saw the administrative building, which was completely destroyed, and well, in my opinion, what kind of plant is no longer there, one more question, the coke chemical plant, that is.. coal is taken, and thanks to some chemical reactions, simple coal is made from this coal coking coal, which then goes to a metal foundry enterprise and helps to make metal, i understood correctly, so coal

in the absence of air and... at a temperature of 1150-1200° is coked and turns into coke, which then goes to metallurgical enterprises, and coke , which was produced at the aviev khokomic plant, it went to azovstal, it went to the ilyich and zaporizhstal plants, and now... after it, a powerful plant is in the corner of the wing , and out of eight coke chemical plants in ukraine , only four were involved, and the situation is not the best, and now you and i are hungry

for russian means of mass information. my beautiful editors gave me a tip here, they are broadcasting an interview with a resident of avdiyivka, who left the private sector of avdiyivka in the direction of occupied donetsk, this woman claims that there was no help from ukraine, that she was left to her own devices, but then journalists from explained that this was not true, until the last... and she was helped by the so-called white angels, she, she is even in the photos, here she is, and this is what you see next to her, here she is with food, with some... help, but nearby, as you can see, we have yellow and blue flags, this means that this is definitely not the russian army, this one is just a resident, and

these belarusians helped her, and there are photos of her, you can see now, she was killed by the shelling of the russians father, and he was lying right on the road, and the woman left him lying there, she went to the occupiers herself, and then i went to mr.... and musima homedov, a people’s deputy of ukraine, who, from kyiv, was a person from kyiv, and he must have worked there for many years , let's listen to a piece of sync, it tells me there is sync in us, let's see, on january 18 in the morning, we can say, in the morning , russian soldiers came from the tsarist hunting side, they walked along our lenina street, visited our residents. they checked documents, then they began to hide us from shelling. on the 20th, as a result of shelling , the house in which we were hiding was destroyed, and the civilians

were forced to deal with their fate independently, and i went to donetsk on foot, i met russian soldiers on the way and they helped me get to donetsk. that you understood, she speaks in russian, our translator translated it, because according to ukrainian legislation. now the russian language should not be on the air, this is how she describes the situation after, for many months, she was helped by ukrainian soldiers and so on and so on. i have a question for mr. musa: how many such women are there in donbas in general, who take help from ukrainians, but wait for the russians, when the ukrainians leave, they say that the ukrainians are bad, despite the help for bread. would be milk, and the russians are good, i think that what is going on there now is a full-fledged

war, and it is not normal to be a victim. that officer belykhin, i am friends with him and his wife, he is a courageous person, he imported people from avdiyivka to the last one, i also went there and visited the shelters and persuaded them to leave, which is relevant. let's talk about this woman, she worked at the plant in the production and design department, and she was not married, she had a strange

character, and i can say for sure that the director of the plant, yury ktsenenko, persuaded her to leave and...

people, and there was such a case , when gena yudin persuaded a woman with a child to leave, she refused, and the next day she and the child were killed, and i was and am... a supporter of the adoption of the law on forced evacuation, because wherever, wherever war is going on.

there was such a film: there is no place for old people here , that's probably right, there definitely shouldn't be civil society, there should be a law on forced evacuation, and i, but most of the deputies believe that it will not be democratic, and the draft law. i didn’t find support from musag, but look, avdiyivka, geographically, it’s actually donetsk, because i just for people to understand what avdiivka is, this is avdiivka, the city of sputnik, the city of satellite , it is 11 km from it to the donetsk airport,

about 20 km straight to donetsk, almost less, i drove from my home in donetsk to avdiivka in 11 minutes , it is true that it was at a speed of more than 200 km/h, but then i still broke the law, not now, but what was left... from the point of view of a civilian, i am a civilian, you are a civilian, we cannot discuss any staff, military circumstances, but for you, what does the fact that the ukrainian army left avdiivka mean, the weakness of the ukrainian army, or the wisdom of the ukrainian generals, or whatever, whatever you want to describe it, and about two weeks before

the start of the war... i spoke with our military man, a very, very good man, he has experience, he fights since the 14th year, and he said that if a full-scale war begins, we will hold out, hold out. a week or two weeks, we will not be able to defend avdeivka anymore, 2 years have passed and the fortifications that were built in avdeivka, when i worked at the factory, we helped with the fortifications, helped with materials, technique, and at my discretion. the military did

the impossible, and the fact that the avdiivka survived for two years is the pinnacle of heroism, and, well, here we are now, i don't want to either, i'm not a military man. i am not in the battles and about the decisions of the military , i can only give an assessment of the military, but i believe that i was already somewhere three days

before ours left. odiivka, i said, it's time to leave, because it's hell and, thank you very much, thank you very much, excuse me for interrupting musa magamedov, people's deputy of ukraine, general director of the avdiyiv coke chemical plant from the 12th to the 19th. thank you for your attention, news from iryna koval and the espso tv team. 20:00 in ukraine, news time on the

espresso tv channel, in the studio of iryna koval, congratulations. all viewers this morning