the world for two hours to keep abreast of economic and sports news, two hours in the company of favorite presenters, presenters who have become like-minded to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio , events of the day in two hours, vasyl zima's big broadcast, a project for intelligent and caring people , in the evening for espresso. greetings, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda. we have already approached the serpent himself. the following shots may shock you. news. live event locations, kamikaze drone attacks, political analytics, objectively and substantively, there is no of the political season, exclusive interviews, reports from the hottest points of the front, the shot of svobodalai frankly and impartially, you draw your own conclusions. verdict with serhiy rudenko, from now on in a new two-hour episode.

format, even more analytics , even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion on the bad day for with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and turn on, the verdict with serhiy rudenko, every weekday from 8 p.m. to 22 for espresso. the guest of our broadcast today is yair lapit, the leader of the opposition in the israeli knesset, the head of the ye shatzit party, the former prime minister and minister of foreign affairs of the state of israel. erif top. mr. lapit. good evening, thank you for inviting me. today is the 725th day of russia's war against ukraine and the 135th day of the war in the middle east. when the war started in

our country 725 days ago, you were one of the heads of the israeli government, you made principled decisions in the situation that developed in the world at that time. you imagined the globalization of this conflict and that the events may spread to the middle east as well. in fact, everyone understood that... that it was, it was the beginning of such a new era, for a very long time people thought that when , after all, states would again use weapons to change the world order, and they thought that it would only terrorists and criminals do this, and when the war happened, and... when russia invaded ukraine, we

realized that this would lead to changes in the world, and we experienced a shock after that, and if we look today at geopolitically, at these question, this is such a struggle between authoritarian countries and democracies, and the story with ukraine, it was only the beginning, i hope that we will not enter into dark times, but there is a possibility that... the tragedy of the ukrainian people is only the beginning of something bigger. that's exactly what i wanted to talk to you about. you and i are almost the same age. one of your grandfathers died in the budapest ghetto during world war ii. one of my grandfathers died on the fronts of world war ii somewhere in russia. and now we see how people who are 30-40 years younger than us are dying. what can be done to avert such a...

global danger, well of course you may have some not so good thoughts about human nature because of it, indeed my relatives, some of them died defending freedom in the world and indeed it is a part of history and... this is how it was before the start of the russian invasion of ukraine , there will always be people, there will always be countries who believe that they have the right to change the world order by force, and what we learned, why, what we saw in february 22 year, we saw that sometimes we really need freedom to defend by force, and on october 7. er, just

a few months ago we saw that this was really confirmed when hamas invaded, sometimes it is just not enough to just talk, sometimes... you have to use weapons and defend yourself with force, with weapons, and that's why, that's exactly what ukraine is doing, and israel too. we talk a lot about the parallels between these two conflicts, and one of those parallels is our search for what real victory means. in ukraine, they hope that our state will return to its international and away countries borders, but it is not easy to do. in israel they talk about the remnant. victory over hamas in the gas sector, but this too looks more like a wish today than a real possibility, where are the boundaries of our real possibilities in these conflicts, how much can we hope for the final result?

i think that in today's world you have to be patient, you have to be patient. this is part of resilience. if you look at the situation in ukraine, you can say that if you don't have an understanding of your future, you still don't have patience, and if you don't have an understanding, what really you have to fight in time, you have to put a lot of effort in time, then you will lose, just like we have, hamas, it is a terrible organization. applies to all wars and indeed during all of them there are always victims for whom we suffer,

but it is always necessary to understand that this is a long-term situation, and whoever understands this wins, we have already had it in history. the week war, it was an extraordinary victory that was very quick, but today these wars that we are experiencing are a combination of war and insurgency and it will take time as for ukraine, as well as for israel, and our stability must also be long-term. when we talk about the beginning of this war, russia's war with ukraine, we often talk. about the underestimation of the danger both on the part of the ukrainian leadership and on the part of the ukrainian society, however, this underestimation can be explained by the fact that we have never faced a challenge of this scale, and israel has faced, we know more than once, and how it happened that the underestimation of the danger on the part of hamas also turned out to be quite

serious, how do you look at it in retrospect? you are right, unfortunately you... are right, indeed, i remember a meeting, a meeting of the cabinet of ministers, a few days before russia's invasion of ukraine, when all the experts came into the room and rushed, said that russia would not start a war, that's how hamas surprised us , we underestimated that threat, and we thought we were secure enough, and... and our system, it's secure too, and we didn't take into account, deeply enough, the security that we have to provide to people, so

how did it happen that the israeli army and the israeli people and the government were so surprised by this move events, this is a question that needs to be resolved further, today we need to win this war and replace those people who were leaders when hamas launched its attack on october 7. so, when we talk about winning the war and the need for national unity, there is always a question that is addressed to you as an experienced politician, when the military cabinet was being formed, one of your colleagues, hantz, decided to cooperate with the prime minister benjamin netanyahu, and you decided to refrain from this participation and stay in the opposition, what were you guided by? well, in

fact, in a real democracy, there is always opposition, even in wartime, and one thing is national. unity on the battlefield and another thing - national unity in the political sphere, we know that there were a lot of slogans that russia is united, afghanistan. it is precisely the opportunity to talk about things frankly, i remember the experience of when there was the second world war, and also when democracy continued in britain, when the government was replaced by chamberlain, and vice versa, that is, we need to discuss ... and we need to have being able to disagree, and that's not a weakness

, that's a strength, that's an advantage of democracy, that's what makes us powerful, and that's what separates us from our enemies, that is, i wouldn't be, i wouldn't be afraid of things like disagreeing with someone else's position , and i think people think that you have to think alike, but... that's not what democracy is about, and that's if we become like our enemies, then they win. ukraine and israel are democracies, and they should remain democracies after all, and this gives us the opportunity to have frank discussions, open conversations, even in times of war. i wanted to ask you whether even the attitude of israeli society towards ukraine is changing at all, in general, to what extent ukraine has emerged as a separate country. act in the consciousness of israeli society during this time

, you know, it was a long time ago, for, unfortunately, in the last few months, we immersed ourselves in our own pain and fear and the need to win, of course, that we... feel very much for ukraine, and we understand that our situations, our wars, they are similar, but actually really ours thoughts, in our, in our heads, we think of you, we pray for you, just as you pray for us, i'm sure. and tell me, please, if we talk about russia and the current attitude towards it in israel, for many years. that russia is a neighbor of israel, and good relations with russia, even with president putin, a guarantee

of some security for the jewish state after the well-known events in syria began, has this attitude changed against the background of what we see today and against the background of constant visits representatives of the homas organization to moscow, even after october 7? yes, of course , a lot has changed in israel today. outrage at this, the fact that these are criminals and terrorists, they are received in moscow as honored guests, of course, this cannot be tolerated, hamas is a terrorist organization, and this is recognized, it was recognized by the european union, the united states, and any any country that understands its dignity, it recognized hamas theoretically. a lot of young people who came just for

the concert were killed by hamas, a lot of women were raped, children were killed, and those people who did this are being hosted in moscow as diplomats, or as full-fledged participants in such discussions, i think that everyone does not accept this in israel, that is, it causes outrage at how russia behaves in the context of this crisis, this crisis. in the first days after the attack on israel, israeli flags could be seen in many countries of the world, and there was such a unified support for israel in many societies, and not only in the west. after that, we saw a shift in the information, information agenda, and now we see how many, not even pro-palestinian, but pro-khamas, anti-semitic demonstrations, i think. that we are talking to you from the only country where there were not even such obvious demonstrations, but

there are not many such countries in the world, to what extent do you think that israel's informational efficiency here has yielded to its opponent? well , it's interesting that it really happened in many countries, and a lot of countries in the beginning... supported israel, but there is such a thing as propaganda, machine propaganda that works against israel, a lot of anti-semitism. slogans are being heard and i think people are thinking that it only comes from the gaza sector, and today, in fact, in this equation , you can say that israel is stronger, but we have to prove that we have the right to defend ourselves, and the people in hamas are weaker, but

it is still a terrorist organization, and... you know, killing children, women, it, it , extremism, it's nationalism, it has to be stopped, i mean i recommend everyone to study the facts because there's a lot of automatic thinking. when people hear about these rallies, i just want to really ask you, not even as a politician, as a journalist, what can't we to explain now in western societies, regarding the nature of authoritarian regimes, which many people in democracies do not realize the dangers, i am not sure that we

cannot do it. to do, i think the problem with the world today is not that there is truth and falsehood, but the ability to listen, we live in a tiktok world where everything has to be summed up in 15 seconds, today it's only 15 seconds, not 15 minutes or other time, and... well, if you talk about war, you can't explain everything in 15 seconds, but i b, i would say that both the right of israel and the right of ukraine to defend themselves, to raise our heads against authoritarian regimes or other organizations, against invasions, against the murders

of our people, i think that this is recognized by the whole world. the nature of humanity is that they, people just hear people who just speak very loudly better, but i think that, in particular in the western countries, a lot of people continue to support us, and i think that this support continues to be heard as for ukraine, as well as for israel. you are not afraid of a certain imperfection of that world order. which we are now observing the closure of international organizations, the vote in the united nations, what we have learned now about the situation with the un agency for palestinian refugees, how we should act so that international institutions fulfill their functions and do not become another tool for propaganda or even for terrorist activity. well, first of all. i'm really

scared, i'm scared by this, and it's really a problem that exists in social media and other sources, it's a bias in these discussions, and of course sometimes people they forget that the un is not the most democratic institution, many countries in the un are not democracies, and therefore... the security council has the right of veto for countries like china or russia, which do not necessarily support democratic values. so we really have to accept

this, and we have to work together to change this situation and... you hope for the restoration of israel's cooperation with the arab countries after this conflict, as far as it can generally be assumed that israel will occupy a peaceful and secure place in the middle east. i am really happy about this fact, that... the agreement we had with egypt or the emirates or bahrain, that they have already disappeared, so sometimes they... talk about doubts, indignation, but we no longer have such misunderstandings, and that is very good. we already have

the opportunity to directly discuss some things with them and explain to them what is really happening. many countries clearly understand the threats that come from fundamentalism. islamism, therefore, we already have a foundation on which we can build our negotiations with them, cooperation with them, cooperation for the sake of the future, so i believe that we will be able after of this conflict to really restore our influence. in the middle east and maintain our agreements with the countries of the arab world. to what extent do you hope that this war will still be localized, and not spread

to the conflict with hezbollah, to the war in lebanon, to other such challenges? i hope that this will not happen, of course we do not want hazbola sitting on our borders. today we evacuated many israelis from these regions, and if there is no diplomatic solution to the conflict, we will take into account in particular, recently the un resolution, which requires the withdrawal of its troops from the borders, and we will. forced to react, to react militarily, no one wants it, but if we have no choice, it will happen, in

the gas sector we are at war exactly with hamas, but otherwise it will be a war exactly with lebanon, and i don't want to think what will happen with berirut or lebanon, if the war starts like this, that is , it will be better for everyone if we can find a... diplomatic solution with hezbollah, and not bring everything to war. tell me, if we talk about how it should look in principle cooperation between israel, ukraine on the one hand, and the united states on the other. in ukraine, they are now watching the election campaign in the united states, they are looking at how the november elections in israel can end, they also believe that the elections in america are... a certain political rubicon for cooperation, you mean

cooperation with the usa, the usa , yes, i think that support for israel, it does not depend on parties, we work with republicans and democrats, of course, president biden is the friendliest. president for all the times that we were in cooperation between israel and the white house. and president trump has also been friendly to us, he moved the us embassy to jerusalem, you know we've wanted it for many years, and he actually prepared these arrangements with bahrain and the emirates. and even morocco to a certain extent, that is, we believe that we can cooperate with both a republican president and a democratic president.

the usa has always been a country that has always been the best partner for us, and i hope that it will remain so in the future. i want to return to europe and to the relations between ukraine and israel, perhaps israel with other central and eastern countries. of europe, your father , when he headed the yadvash institute, entered into a polemic with the president of ukraine viktor yushchenko on issues of historical memory, and i have always been interested in how important it is for the further development of relations between our peoples, between our states, to discuss national memory, which happened to ukraine and poland, and was not always favorable for understanding how important it is for us to continue. if

to say fundamentally, if relations are needed, they must be built on trust, and in fact, any country had such chapters in history that we would like to forget, but some of them we cannot forget, we will not ignore the fact that in ukraine there was also a history of anti-semitism, but not me to the point... that you shouldn't think that the whole story was painted in rosy tones. ukraine also had other experience in protecting jews and hiding them from nazism. and we need to be able to discuss all these points not because we are not friends, on the contrary, because we are friends, that we are really not proud of such pages

of history, but we are ready. to discuss them so that they do not repeat themselves, so of course i remember that controversy with my father, and i think that a generation later, i would say that we should not try to restore that history as it was, but to discuss that , as it should be, thank you, i wish you could be at the end. of our conversation, a few words were said to our viewers who are now watching this program and may have shared the experience of psychological survival in the conditions permanent war. well, you mentioned my father, i will say the following: my father was a child during the holocaust and his

father was taken away from him. and my grandfather , as we have already said, he was killed in the constitutional camp, and my father lost his childhood because of this, but nevertheless he was always a happy person, he loved to laugh, eat, his wife, he loved thoughts, he was a very happy person , and we always... can decide for ourselves how we will overcome a bitter experience, whether we will be more intelligent, or depressed, or we will be more joyful, so survivors, will we be filled with grief for what we, what we've been through, will we understand the beauty of life, or will we still wallow in this grief that we've been through and

think that what he taught me , this is because we always have a choice. ukraine has been fighting this unjust war for several years. and let's remember what we are fighting for. we are fighting for the freedom to dance, to smile, to have free families, and we are fighting for optimism in our lives. and... not because of pessimism, because because of what we have been through, a very great question, my answer is exactly this, thank you very much mr. lapit, i wish you victory and a peaceful end to all the worries we are in, thank you very much for this interview and safety to you , goodbye.

greetings to all viewers of espresso, news time, yana. immediately about the most important events, a de-30 howitzer, an armored car and three trucks, so many enemy targets were destroyed in the past, in the past week in the kherson region, also our defense forces continue to eliminate the occupiers and inflicted fire damage on their shelters, the state border service reported. minus two dryings in