why i am so grateful to you for raising this issue, because today ukrainian society terribly lacks an open public discussion about where is the border, where is the red line, what is acceptable for ukraine at this stage, what is unacceptable, where is the , that is, between victory and defeat lies not yet defeat, non-victory and a bunch of other various options in which we are at... today we have absolutely not figured it out, we do not have a public discussion about this, and i am especially grateful to individual journalists who are just starting about is to say, but to us a broad public debate is needed, including with the participation of political leaders who certainly have their position to express, including with the participation of the military, veterans, public intellectuals, universities and so on, and to give an example, today... at the event,

opinions are heard about to offer ukraine something like a german scenario after world war ii, eastern ukraine, western ukraine, and then in a couple of generations, somehow they will unite or not, a korean scenario, when there is some demarcation line, and there is the flourishing of nato and the european union and all that, and there is a black hole, of the croatian scenario, when some territories are frozen, and then after a whole... generation, they return when, mother ukraine increased her capacity to to return , and can carry out an appropriate operation, sometimes these words hide some proposals that are not very acceptable to us, we need to talk about it all, because it is obvious that we will not go to the borders so quickly, even if we do, we will get a bunch of others problems in order... to restore donbas, for example

, absolutely astronomical funds are needed, because the aggressors destroyed almost everything there, and so on, crimea is very important, what is its future, all these things must be publicly discussed, so that the society finally for itself accepted, this is good, it can be accepted for a while, this is a red line, we cannot go there, every politician who offers us something that is beyond the red line will be unacceptable to ukrainian society. and here we can conduct negotiations, we understand that ukrainian society is like this it is arranged in such a way that no ukrainian politician will be able to implement any decision that ukrainian society does not accept, and this is good, it is wonderful, although sometimes it is a little painful that all these things happen, but it is good, because in fact it distinguishes us from the russian federation , not many people are talking about it, but some would only dream, look, you said about donbas, i just remind our viewers that... either there was, or there will be an opportunity

to watch other interviews from this series, and we they talked about how ukrainian is changing ecology as a result of the war , is it necessary or not to rebuild the kakhovskaya hpp, options for the development of events and the reaction, excuse me, of nature to both our steps, and we are talking about restoration, you noted that it is the restoration of donetsk's potential, the economic potential of donetsk , luhansk region of ukraine. who in donbas, and can we talk about it, considering, well, considering, firstly, the destruction, and secondly, the return to those practices that were actually there decades before the large-scale invasion and so on and so on. when we go, when the ukrainian delegation goes to any forums that talk about the restoration of ukraine, they are already calculating how much it will cost, again. after all, what are we basing

ourselves on, after all, do we have an understanding that we need an industrial donbas, or do we retreat from this and give it a chance for a slightly different fate, or are all these, let's say, strategies and ways being worked out? i believe that we need a broad social dialogue regarding the future of ukraine as a whole, and specifically of the donetsk and luhansk regions, crimea, half a day, first of all, uh,... as for the kokhovskaya hydroelectric power station, it is obviously a professional issue, and here it is necessary to gather ecologists, economists, agrarians and so on, so that they understand which scenario is better, but already it is clear that the ukrainian south will never be the same as before, and the east will not be, the east will definitely not be the same as before, we need a broad discussion about crimea, i would like to remind you that the foresight was held in 2021, as part of the summit of the crimean platform, in ... developed

a universal, very precise, but at the same time very paradoxical formula, which is still used today day seems to many to be strange, even unacceptable to some, it sounds like this: crimea can be ukrainian only when it is crimean-tatar, but it can be crimean-tatar only when it is ukrainian, but this paradox is not for everyone aware, and this means that these or other political decisions will be inhibited, which means that we will continue to keep in our heads the picture of crimea, the one that was before, you said about the practices that existed in certain territories, i would say that we don't only in donetsk we need to change practices, we also need to change practices in kyiv, we and kyiv have the same practices. were previously already unacceptable, i would say that the huge fear that permeates all social groups in ukrainian society is the fear that after the war everything will be like before the war, because then it means that all the suffering, all the blood and all the death and all rionations, everything was absolutely useless, and we returned to the point from which we

left, to add a little humor, i will say that sometimes you have to hear such a joke that ukrainian national sport is biathlon. did not hit the target and ran an extra circle , but we run this extra circle time after time, and we definitely do not need to return to the point where we were before, we need to go to the next point, from this there is an answer regarding the donetsk-luhansk regions , if we are talking about the restoration of the donetsk luhansk regions, which today, february 24, 2024 , seems very far away, but in fact we do not know, it can happen quickly, it... can happen for a long time, there are different scenarios, then it is obvious that it is necessary to restore not what was, well, for example, there is no need to restore economic practices and technological cycles of 50 years ago, obviously we need to do something of the next generation and look at the existing technologies. ukraine has huge

resources, huge potential, i have been hearing the phrase about ukraine's huge potential for about 32 years, and... during this time, it was not realized much, it was weakly realized, because we remained a post-soviet country and, in principle, remain one, that is actually our chance for economic leap, and we are poor enough for today, the country is still poor country means not only low salaries, low pensions, a poor country means very little money that we can actually spend on education, on health care, on culture, on those things that we cannot live without in the 21st century, on human provision. .. potential, on which, it seemed to me, you were particularly lamenting when you described these necessary points for the possibility of our recovery in general, a little about it, about this human potential, we will not have enough people, there is also such an opinion, and the demographic catastrophe

of our country is not only that now people are dying, not only because there are not many of them being born in our country, but also because this triggers a certain reaction and... and we will rake it for decades, we will also talk about this topic with experts separately, as they say , but mr. valery , i have a question for you, there are different visions of how to get out of this problem, and one of them is the involvement of migrants themselves, people from other countries who can find themselves in ukraine and settle in us, sorry , perhaps roughly speaking, by working hands and... by our intellect, like you do you think that the ukrainian society in its current composition, this novelty, yes, this new approach, taking into account a certain conservatism, traditionalism and so on, will improve

, but the problem is demographic, it consists of several components, it is obvious that there is a component of emigration, and component of immigration, emigration is the return of those who left. today, the vast majority of those who left are planning to return, but their plans as of today are of little importance, because what matters is what they will think in that the moment when these decisions will be made , and we understand that those who, for example, left with their children, they think not in calendar years, but in academic years, and each academic year reduces the probability, as sociologists sadly half joke, 6.4 million people left, 10 of them will never return , what is it about, well... it is about a sad scenario, when after the ukrainian victory, not women with children return to ukraine, but men go to their families, and then the country becomes even more depopulated. for some reason when they talk about demographic strategy, they usually think about birth rates, you know, if everyone just falls

madly in love immediately after our transfer, it won't affect the labor market in the next 15 years, so it's about maximum efforts to return. people and here in ukraine, three key factors are important here: the first is the security factor: they left because of danger, and they will return because of security. the second is the infrastructural factor, housing, roads, schools, kindergartens, hospitals and so on, and the third is this the actual economic factor, whether there is a job, whether there is an opportunity to create your own business, whether there is an opportunity for a decent wage and so on, here we return to the economic freedom that we have already talked about, and i specifically started with emigration in order to now move on to immigration, because simply looking at immigration is not against the background. all other demographic processes are not possible, by the way, the government is currently developing a demographic strategy,

and i very much welcome the fact that this document and this policy are being developed inclusively, that is, with the broad involvement of scientists, er, experts, representatives of various interested parties , because, unfortunately, in our government there is a practice when many documents are developed behind closed doors, their quality then arises, their quality is then... questionable and criticism is furious from civil society and other interested parties, as they say now stakeholders. so, now, going back to immigration, there are really, according to various estimates, between two and 4 million people who are not enough, because we have a long-inverted demographic pyramid, we have a long-aging population, which means more old people, less young people, less for each worker with... gives more people that he has or she should receive and so on and so forth, and one way or another, if

the country starts to recover, it will become attractive to migrants. who will these migrants be? in theory, it wouldn't be bad if these people were as similar to us as possible. but there is one but, there are only one such people, they are ethnic ukrainians with russian passports, and when russia collapses, they will all flee here. with shouts of brother, sister, give me bread or if you want to eat, then it's ukrainian society today is not ready to accept these people, sociology shows this very clearly, well, you and i are not ready, which means that we are also part of society, because ukrainian society considers these people to bear their share of collective responsibility for all war crimes, moreover, a potential danger for the future , for sure, we don't know what's in their heads, in fact, they were formed by putin's propaganda, which means that such people will really come and... of another language, race, religion, culture, and on today, the conservative part of ukrainian society does not accept this

, but the situation will become tense, there will be a shortage of workers, artificial intelligence will not save here, because artificial intelligence is capable of replacing some intellectual work, but, for example, caring for the elderly, who more and more, it is still mostly manual work, and we still have enough manual work, even work... work at the new post office is a job for young energetic boys and girls, mostly, who are able not only to do something in the information system, but also to simply take a big box with their hands and move it somewhere from one place to another. i specifically gave an example from a completely new economy, not a traditional one, so imagine that people of a different race, language, religion, culture and... there are two big questions here. the first question is the question of the strength of the ukrainian language and

culture, because we need these people to become new ukrainians. ugh. the ukrainian nation is a very specific entity, you have to be born a ukrainian, but you can still become a ukrainian if you really want to. and there are many such examples. and it is the strength of the ukrainian language and culture that gives a chance to new arrivals from uzbeks and... filipinos, arabs, africans, to turn into afro-ukrainians, arab-ukrainians, uzbek-ukrainians, filipino-ukrainians and so on. without a powerful ukrainian language and culture , without our own social bubble, in which one wants to become a part of, in which it is fashionable to become a part, one wants to become a part of it, so that these uzbeks, roughly speaking, while still sitting in tashkent, or in fergana, passed the exam. from the ukrainian language and culture, they came here already with a certificate, and without this, of course, no

ukrainization of these people, no acquisition of ukrainianness by them is possible. and the second question is the one you correctly mentioned, and is it enough to open an inclusive ukrainian society in order to accept these people as new ukrainians? let's say right away if ukrainian society is so open and inclusive that it will be ready to accept these people without them acquiring ukrainian. it's bad because it means that these people will come here and remain who they are, we already see, for example, in european countries that multiculturalism fails when, if turks come to... come to germany and remain turks without becoming germans, without acquiring germanness , well, it means ghettos, it means conflicts, it means a lot of problems for the future of the country, the growth of right-wing populism and all the consequences that you can imagine, as well as the american melting pot, which melts very badly, it melted normally hundreds years, while such people

as germans, swedes, scots, jews, ukrainians, poles, and italians came to this cauldron. and when mexicans and puerto ricans began to come there, something went wrong, something went wrong , so is this new identity system possible in ukraine, it is possible, because ukraine has never been an empire, there are no such barriers here, but at the same time, by accepting people without them acquiring ukrainianness, we create problems for ourselves and them, which means we have to accept people who want and can acquire ukrainianity, but the question is whether our society will then be ready to accept them, fortunately we still have many years to build this system, this is not a problem of tomorrow, it is a problem of the day after tomorrow, but as you rightly pointed out, it is necessary to think about it today, because if today we will not invest in language and culture, which means that tomorrow we will train the language and culture that will make ukraine a magnet for talents from all over the world, and not,

sorry, to put it bluntly, a cesspool for losers from all over the world, who will become ukraine? here again we return to economic freedom, because economic freedom determines, excuse me, i keep coming back to this, because this factor, it is like a spider in the center of a web, it connects everything to everything, because it determines our chances to live a decent life, chances our children and grandchildren to live a decent life, or lack of such chances, theoretically we can say that not every country necessarily recovers after every war. there are countries that lie in ruins for a long time, i can give an example, very so blatant, look, iraq was the location of the world's most powerful, most advanced civilizations for thousands of years, but after the mongol invasion of more than 700 years

ago, iraq never recovered, and looking at modern iraq. we strongly doubt that it is capable of becoming a place for the development of great civilizations again, and therefore there are places that never recover and do not want to become such a place. so, going back to economic freedom, economic freedom determines whether our economy is a high- value-added economy, huh, and then we're a magnet for talent from all over the world, is our economy an economy with low added value, and even then we are a cesspool for losers from all over the world, and here actually is... the answer to the question of who we want and have and must accept for ourselves, and and i say once again, this is a problem of the day after tomorrow, which we have to think about now, because when they say that culture is not on time, it may seem to someone that culture is not on time today, but it will be on time tomorrow morning, that means , that today it is necessary to invest there, i will certainly

ask one more question, among the points, that we are discussing with you today, those that can be implemented right now, if there is security and so on, there is a lot of uncertainty, then, well, sorry, a law enforcement system that functions as a service that ensures that the rights of everyone in this country are truly respected, this is something that you can strive for and move towards now, but for this you need, as they often say , political will, including will, i will ask you a short question, you can answer as you see fit... it takes a long time, a short time, but please, we have a change in the military leadership now in the country, and in the political plane of our leadership, there are also changes promised by the president, in case they happen, do you think that we will intensify our movement a little on those points that can be implemented already today, even during

the war. to be honest, observing the personnel changes, i do not see any changes in the political leadership yet. if you mean a change in government, and we don't know, the president said it would be, and what it would be, we don't know, look, the only thing that really should be expected, these are the resignations of five or six effective managers, who today took over the functions of the government, parliament, law enforcement agencies, judges and everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone, who essentially concentrated enormous power, but in conditions of total irresponsibility , because no one chose these people. no one voted for them, and they are replacing the constitutional bodies of ukraine. this resignation is unlikely to happen because there is an impression that to date ... the president believes that his cooperation with them is successful and that they are his reliable a support pillar, and they cannot be changed, but

this is exactly what society is striving for today, precisely that people who are not elected by anyone and irresponsibly and unconstitutionally, let's say frankly, rule everything in the country, so that they somehow disappear from the political system. and for the government to restore its full capacity to make key economic decisions, which will be very good, because as i said, the government has a strong track record in the area of ​​increasing economic freedom, which is critical, i think i 've said it seven times already, and the parliament is critical important in formation of state policy in many areas where we have gaps in legislation. uh, and ukrainian parliamentarism must be completely restored, because i will remind our viewers that it was the parliament, in all the most difficult times of ukraine, that was the one, that

state institution that saved ukraine and restored the ability of the ukrainian state to continue to develop stably, predictable way, including being a source of legitimacy both for ukrainian citizens and for all our international partners in the east and in the west, and... further, the judicial reform, as long as it is managed from the office of the president, is unlikely to be successful, because a successful judicial reform is a judicial reform in which ukrainian society and international partners play a key role, namely those the political changes that ukrainian society aspires to see, i do not undertake to assess their probability, it seems not so much yet, although i will be glad. to be mistaken, and even if these political changes really happen, and we will restore the ability of the government and parliament to fully work in ukraine in accordance with constitutional norms, it will be, well, most likely

the greatest happiness that can be compared, except with the huge successes of the armed forces of ukraine on the battlefield, because it will be a big, powerful step into the future. look, you and i started with , in particular, a discussion about how to properly call the processes after the war, reconstruction, restoration. modernization, and we basically finish with this, because it is very important now to restore, maybe rebuild something, and modernize something in the context of how our country functions, and it seems to me that it is extremely important, state institutions, a departure from the usual, again, practices in ukrainian politics for several years, well, this is something that can be done today, and not wait for what they think... in this sense, our partners are there and so next, the main thing is to have an inner desire and to move towards it, this is extremely important, mr. valery, i am extremely grateful to you for this conversation, i hope that our viewers

heard the same important things that, you know, how beacons are now extremely important for each of us, you know, for somewhere even emotional stability, and as a basis for further thinking, i will remind you that it was valery pekar, a ukrainian entrepreneur and... public figure, in addition, a teacher at the business school of the ukrainian catholic university and the kyiv-mohyla business school, and this a special project of the espresso tv channel for the second anniversary of the russian federation's large-scale invasion of ukraine, a series of interviews that i encourage you to watch and think about, my name is khrystyna yatskiv, see you soon.

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