this is about politics, about the world, welcome to the new edition of our program, which can be watched every week on pavel koval's youtube channel, as well as on the ukrainian espresso tv channel every sunday at 3:30 p.m. and 10 p.m. find the main part of our conversations on the website sestri.eu, and my interlocutor is the head of the foreign affairs committee of the polish sejm and the polish government's representative on the reconstruction of ukraine, pawel kowal. the post is still in the draft good day. maria gurska of sisters u taspresso will conduct this conversation for you, for me for a long time, first of all, espresso, because we know each other and this is no secret for many years, during which we cooperated on this tv channel. it is true, and these joint projects that we implemented, projects of cultural diplomacy, because i have also worked for many years as a manager of cultural projects of polish-ukrainian understanding, give us the strength to survive in the vortex of madness that is happening.

we saw such a banner during farmers' protests in silesia, and let me remind you that the whole of poland was blocked by a large-scale nationwide farmers' action, where in fact, such shocking slogans appeared. what can you say about this? this is a tragedy, as i would say, there is such an anecdote about jan nowak jazoranski, a prominent polish emigrant, a fighter for poland's accession to nato, a friend of several us presidents. when someone came to jan nowak with a difficult topic, it is said that he would go around and say: disaster, disaster, disaster, and then he would start talking, thinking, and finally saying: well, we will find a solution, and i think that what happening now we have to some degree.

a catastrophe, but approximately the same as that of jan novak jezyuranskyi. eventually we will find a solution. the first step is to try to understand. i often explain the specifics of the polish language when people in poland say i don't understand you, it's actually their way of saying i don't agree with you, but it's not the same. i think that it is one thing to understand, and another to agree. so now my role is in these conversations we have with you. i know how many people in ukraine watch me, watch us, watch this program, and i would like to explain about... what we are talking about, so in reality there are several groups of agricultural producers in poland, which are affected by several factors, and first of all, we are talking about the entry of ukrainian grain into the market, especially in the first wave, because now there is less of this grain, and -secondly, the general drop in grain prices affects them, and they felt discomfort, and then fear, and then it developed to such a degree, such a wave, so to speak , of protests, and even then they were joined by various frivolous people, crazy people, and maybe , even saboteurs. i mean these

people are very afraid for their future , for their farms, so they go to the following forms of protests: firstly, this is a protest against the european commission, and ukraine is only an aspect of this protest, but it is real, and it is a big problem for us, because it is about blocking the border, which is a bad reputation for poland, but no one can stop these people from protesting, and they are protesting. she apologized to warring ukraine and noted that she did not believe that this was the work of her real compatriots. actually, what they say polish special services specifically about the nature of such slogans for actions?

with poland mykola knyazhytskyi was in poland immediately after the munich conference, and we talked only about this for the whole day. i understand the feelings of ukrainians, i try to explain and lower the level of emotions a little, but this does not change the fact that there is a problem. and i come back to it again. let's not let ourselves be convinced that everything in the world is one big special operation. there is a real problem that some farms in poland are suffering. we are trying to solve this problem as a new government, although i am not in the government. we are also looking for solutions in consultations with the european commission. some of these solutions

will be found, but it will take time , during this period there will be protests, i would like to convince my fellow farmers of only one thing, i understand you, i understand that you may be nervous, i understand that... no everything in the world markets is working out for the best for the grain producers, just don't scatter that grain anymore and this is my sincere plea, i also come from a family that has roots in seli, i believe that we should not do this as poles, simply because of our traditions and respect for our culture. i am ready to understand the scattering of something else, if it is necessary to scatter it, i do not know any products, be it cabbage or something else, but in principle it is better not to throw food away, because someone can eat it. there are other effective forms of protest, too , i wanted to make the protest sharp, okay, i would because i understand that the participants of the action wanted, since i represent the party in power, that there should be no protests, and if there should be, then let them take place as the farthest from the border, the better and safer it would be for everyone, including those who are protesting,

well, if it is happening where it is happening, then the appearance of scattered grain, whether ukrainian or polish in our regions, i am talking about subcarpathia in particular, galicia, this is always a bad signal, it's just better not to give it... especially when ukrainian grain goes in transit to germany or lithuania, as it happened last week. and this is a question that now arises even in those cold heads in ukraine who look at these photos, video, and they say, why don't polish farmers protest against russian imports, against the huge amount of russian grain?

to feed myself and my family, i also understand the ukrainians who stayed in ukraine and fighting, i just share these emotions, but sometimes i also ask, i ask people for understanding, because sometimes in our relationship it is very necessary, maybe we this program should be renamed and called cool heads, you understand, not everything is a special operation, sometimes people explode with different emotions, including ones that just make them feel like they're in a hopeless situation, sometimes they also don't know what the import structure is. exports, yes, many farmers in poland, maybe they didn't know about it, probably they don't realize it now either, so we need to talk about it too, that's our role, and of course you can join those who are scared today and eager to hair, but i would not like us to join their number, i myself do not want to be in this group,

i want to at least try to decide the problems quietly, quietly and calmly, and i know that many people in the polish government are trying to solve them, we know that this is a problem, so many people have already said different things... that i can't add anything to it, and i don't want to, i don't see the need to radicalize everything even more , i would like it to end and remain in history, so that it does not turn out that in the end poles and ukrainians quarreled over an issue that is not so important for the entire economy, because i am not talking about these specific farms, for it is so important for them, and for the whole economy, for all polish-ukrainian relations, because let's say clearly that it would be completely untrue, my god, let's think about whether it's even true if we were to... characterize today's polish-ukrainian relations through the prism of this problem, although this is a real problem, no, because these relations should actually represent millions of ukrainians who passed through our country, and many of them still live here. every day we do business together, people implement programs together, as we are now, by the way, and other things, this is a real picture

polish-ukrainian relations, and this, for example, is a very good export of polish products to ukraine, so that we do not reduce all this to pictures from the border. to understand how this russian grain gets to the polish market, because the 13th package of sanctions against russia has been adopted, we will talk about the sanctions separately, but at the moment we see that these products, especially agricultural ones, still end up on the shelves, how is this possible? not all products are subject to sanctions, they are different, there was grain, but what does grain regulation look like, i don't remember, we can get to that come back if necessary, i'll prepare, i need to check, i'm not ready to talk about it now. i read that it enters the eu through intermediary companies, for example, from lithuania. exactly. but in addition to that, some agricultural products from russia are not subject to sanctions, because as the previous polish government said about it, i remember such statements and analysis that the world is facing a food crisis, it is dictating

its terms, and the world is trying to to respond to these challenges, that is why there are certain products that enter the markets, even from russia, especially grains and vegetables. it seems that russian grain was generally considered in the context of russia's agreement to allow ukrainian grain through the black sea as part of the negotiations? no, i just don't remember how it was, and i also have such a rule, and i like it, because usually politicians are famous. according to his willingness to comment expertly on any topic, if i don't know something, i simply don't remember. we can return to this topic. regarding the sanctioning mechanism, i would like to say two words, if you may: with sanctions the fact is that they are never perfect, there is a lot of quite professional literature that i know about sanctions, and it all shows one thing: if you want to stop ukraine with sanctions, you have to constantly introduce new packages or new sanctions, because the state , as a large organism, especially such a large and strong organism as russia, has a natural tendency to circumvent sanctions, that is, sanctions are accepted, and they are a company, then sanctions are imposed on grain, they come up with various workarounds: then lithuanian

grain also enters the market only in form flour, and these are just a few examples of how this can happen: countries that are subject to sanctions always have a tremendous ability to re- establish themselves in other forms and find loopholes to circumvent the sanctions, which means that we just need to constantly improve sanctions, that's how it works, that's the nature of sanctions, there's no such thing as deterrent measures and everything, and they work, you just have to... the polish market already needs a certain amount of imported grain and other agricultural products, so i guess it's worth looking at it so that instead of buying products from russia in one form or another, maybe it's better to just stop fighting ukraine, instead of actually funding putin's weapons that are aimed at both our countries. i would say that this is too sharp wording, it is not a fight with ukraine for these people, i know

that in the end it looks bad, and it really is. i just got back from a conference in munich and saw how many people were telling me about it. i know it's a problem, but i also know it's unnatural of the polish-ukrainian dialogue, neither from the polish nor from the ukrainian side, to calmly and patiently explain something, because everyone prefers to exaggerate and exaggerate. and i think we can try a little differently. especially since it will be useful in the future, during ukraine's negotiations on joining the... i understand that many people do not agree with polish farmers, with this group of farmers, because not all, but only a group of grain producers in this case , in the other case of corn, these are the producers or, say, poultry farmers, it will be easier to find there solution, although it is not certain, but let's try to understand it and then we will have a better conversation, because at least we will know what the difference is and we will not accuse each other of bad intentions, but i do not rule out and i want to say that i should not be considered naive, when we talk about the information sphere, it is clear that even if the protesters have... if we talk about this poster, about these appeals to putin, where does it

come from and how many poles really think like that? the banner was so terrible that if there were more such banners, we would be talking about them found out for sure, because someone would have photographed it and put it on the internet, so again, if you use your cold mind and logic, there was probably one such banner, then no one noticed the others, and thank god, because we started this banner with him , it's just a disaster, but on... i also think that blocking the border is

a big problem for security reasons, but it's also a right, and it's taken very seriously in poland. this law is especially important considering the times of communism when it was forbidden, but also if someone protests and abuses the law in another way, the law works for him in the same way, which means that he should usually be watched by the prosecutor's office, he should be investigated and tried if he is guilty. this means that both the authors of this banner and the people who spread the seed are now under investigation, right where they are, and so on all other matters, plus any other case where the law is broken, because it has to work both ways, with regard to grain, i would like to highlight two aspects, it is not only about the destruction of property, etc., because after all grain is something more in our culture, i limit myself to this thesis, with warmth, cordiality, with understanding, i do not always completely agree, but...

it is known that it will not be possible to fully protect, but to protect a little the producers of certain goods that in ukraine are produced cheaper, because there is better land, and this is the happiness of ukraine, because more sun is also happiness. farms in ukraine, which most often refers to large farms of the richest people, but also because the products are cheaper, that is why ukrainian grain is cheaper, because in ukraine it can be used, for example, other plant protection products. requirements from the eu are not so strict. yes, these

requirements are not as big as those of polish manufacturers. with this, when we put all these factors together, we will see, firstly, ukrainians can produce cheaper, secondly, it may be, it is not always the case, but it may be that they are producing to lower standards, because do not have all the obligations that polish farmers have, thirdly, in general, grain prices have fallen, fourthly, when this grain enters the european market, inevitably sales for polish grain are reduced by fifth, part of this grain remains on the polish market itself, for example, sometimes because of some... in general, ukraine does not trade grain with poland, the grain in question is intended for the fulfillment of agreements with other countries, this is not quite the case, because it is already a single market, it cannot be completely divided, i think it is necessary, i don't know, it just seems to me, what

needs to be done, and there are such financial instruments from the eu, there are such financial opportunities. is to help those farmers who just don't have time, i don't know, to change, for example, the type of seed they sow or something else to change, because people are in such a situation, so now they need help, but polish farmers have already received certain subsidies from the eu? yes, they partially received, partially still receive, must receive es by agriculture, it looks like this. polish farmers received 4 billion euros in subsidies from the government and the european union. yes, if they want more. and they have the right to it, then they should get more, and ukrainian farmers will quickly learn this, because in 10 years ukraine will be in the eu, and indeed, at least from this point of view, it is necessary to refrain from such a frontal attack on each other, ukrainian farmers will do the same, that is, they will protest, if the situation on the market prompts them to do so, they will want to to get additional money to protect themselves, to have a sense of stability,

this is really all waiting for the ukrainian state, various protests are waiting for it, will come. better times, when there will be no more war and ukraine will be in the eu, and ukrainian farmers are waiting various subsidies and money when something threatens them, for example, i don't know, transport from kazakhstan or something else, but there is also the factor of war, so the polish consul general in lviv, eliza dzvonkiewicz, calls it a stab in the back of a neighbor who is fighting for freedom but i don't understand one thing. i mean, i can also comment sharply on all elements in polish-ukrainian. relationships, but why, for example, should i do this, because today so many people are engaged in this, if i have devoted my whole life to making these relationships better, then it is tested precisely in such difficult moments, and it is then that i have to restrain myself and not allow myself to explode, which means searching for a dialogue. at such moments, i always remember this unfortunate voivode kisel, whom everyone in ukraine knows from history, who tried

to reconcile the cossacks with the poles, i try to make everyone at least understand these phenomena, explain them, i don't always have to... "okay, then maybe let's try to combine it like this, or maybe like this? today the situation is that it is necessary to sporadically help these farmers, but ukrainian farmers will have similar problems, because they will be brought, for example, wheat from kazakhstan, at 100%, this will happen soon, in about 10 years, when you will be in the eu. in the end, polish farmers and producers also need to be given some time , maybe they will find a way to buy grain cheaper in ukraine." by the way, we haven't talked yet, we haven't discussed how this situation will affect the polish economy, because this crisis can cause a communication breakdown. , lack of understanding, or maybe even such consequences that part of the ukrainian seasonal

workers who could come in the future, as it was before every year, first of all, of course, women, will not come. the polish economy needs workers from abroad for the functioning of certain industries, and ukrainians may not want to do this in the coming years. and who will take their place then? migrants from africa? there is such an undefined category, which is formulated as the atmosphere in business. when we talk about this atmosphere in business, it is not clear exactly what we are talking about, but the point is that it should be good atmosphere, because the consequences of this can... for example, on the comfort of selling polish products to ukraine, i would not like that, because i see how many jobs in poland are connected to sales to ukraine, almost every day i meet someone , who sells products to ukraine and... in poland , many people say that there are a lot of ukrainian products, but statistics show that there are a lot of them, but not that many, so we also trade with each other, different things are happening,

there will be some the big investments we 're making are just about getting everything together not to drown all the projects and not to make it so that no one trusts anyone anymore , maybe it is actually much easier to realize that there is a specific problem that is a significant irritant and causes disapproval in ukraine, and people are also constantly. stress and wars, besides, they have their own feelings, they have relatives dying at the front, i don't even want to say it, i'm just aware of it, i understand it, and i want to show now that i understand that someone is annoyed, but to be honest, i understand much less about those people who are responsible for polish-ukrainian relations, i don't know , for example, i really appreciate teras kachko, but he always makes some sharp comments on twitter every time, does it change anything, or will my sharp comment, if someone annoys me, solve the problem? there is also a question here, because while anti-ukrainian hysteria is being fanned by the russian special services in social networks,

we saw how they work on the example of the usa many years ago, right? we should pay attention to the ancient works of kremlin ideologues, dugen and ilyena that the conquest of europe will begin with the polish-ukrainian conflict. so how do we keep our heads cool now? to be guided by the slogans of jerzy gedroyc and other architects of polish-ukrainian understanding. how to return to the language of dialogue and how the ukrainian and polish authorities should act now. just do it. i appeal with one thought now to everyone who has influence, if you are negotiating, if you are a politician who is responsible for these relations, for some aspect of economic, cultural and so on, then you should avoid. this is an element of professionalism, you don't radicalize, because that makes it worse to conduct negotiations, because the fact that someone makes some sharp post on social networks, which happens often, does not

improve the atmosphere of these negotiations, nothing good will definitely come of it, so let everyone start from themselves , i will not lecture anyone simply because i deal with polish-ukrainian relations, especially because in general i have this nature in principle, but especially because i do not make a drama out of it, every country, every nation has its own elements that for her... is special emotional, and from the polish side there are also such things to which the polish public opinion is very sensitive because of history. it says something about the behavior of ukrainians, but i always say: let's not exaggerate, let's just be calmer with these comments. and now it is in the hands of responsible leaders, responsible media and responsible citizens of both countries. everyone may have a different opinion than me, but this is my advice, i think it should be. we'll end this interview with a recap. this weekend marks the second anniversary of the war ukraine, and two years ago, on the first day of the invasion, you and i shared the vershav kyiv stream. we talked online about what's

next, what to expect, what's happening in kyiv? i talked about the events from my apartment in kyiv. what do you think about this anniversary and the moment we find ourselves in, where we start this third year of war and what's next? i don't even remember that moment, so... for me they all came together like one long canvas, those first few weeks, i remember our conversations, i remember that i tried, that in the beginning in i had the feeling that you yourself did not understand then what to do next? the most important thing was to provide as much information as possible, i wanted us to communicate, even on twitter , on instagram, wherever possible, i just joined in, informed about the consequences of putin's attack on ukraine, i don't like that we continue talk about two years, because i think we need all that time. putin decided to kill more

ukrainians, he tried to use very sharp instruments, because now we are used to such positional war, one can say classic, but let's remember that everything started with the genocide north of kyiv, and there was an attempt to use very brutal tools that cannot be counted as... i don't know if there is such a thing as a classic war, but it was definitely not a classical war. putin played very hard and the key for us was to mobilize the whole western world for support and we did that. i believe that every vote, every post, every inclusion online was a clay in the construction of this wall against putin. well, a now that so much time has passed, at the beginning of this year, we count on responsible leaders, again, and responsible states. we hope that...

with good deeds. the last such symbolic act was putin's assassination of navalny. suddenly, in two or three days, everyone mobilized, as if they saw putin's true face again, because you and i knew what he was like. and suddenly everyone began to loudly demand that this russian money be frozen in western europe. there is a certain paradox here, that not only in ukraine, sometimes not only in poland, but also in the west, only when someone dies or something tragic happens, everyone says, hey it's like that, and on the other hand, everyone starts to believe that the world is not one big special operation , sometimes there are real oppositionists, people who, i don't know, from my side, i just want to say two words about navalny, because i also saw that he was terribly criticized in ukraine, criticized the attention that was given to navalny, i think that it was important that he wrote his manifesto a year ago, changed it his views, demonstrated it, returned to russia, to prison, not out of naivety, because

he did not assume that he would be killed, he ... just assumed that something would happen, he would be able to change russia, but for me it is some a position that is worth paying attention to, and then remember that there are also real oppositionists in russia. even if someone still believed that in russia it was all putin's game, now it is clear that sometimes things are serious. well then, the fate of russia is now in the hands of these real oppositionists, it's time to act. in the hands of a small a group that is weak, but... it will also gain some strength, death sometimes gives strength to others, so i would like khodorkovsky, kasparov, to have more strength in what they do, because kasparov, for example, is really a lot is doing to support ukraine in the war, and he, for example, has always been in opposition to putin, i hope that no one has any doubts here, but i also worry about, for example, in a human way kara murza, for example, who is now sitting in prisons, i know him, we are friends, this is also important, i

know that it can be criticized, i understand that... someone in ukraine, when they hear this, says: more than 100 people die in our country every day, maybe more, i understand that, but i think that it is also worth considering those who are sitting in russian prisons, and that somehow they also have to contribute to victory, let him be greek , empires take a long time to build, but they fall quickly, sometimes the first domino that destroys the whole house can be pulled out by one person, we also hope for that, although... i see these reactions to navalny very sharp at times, but, for example, i understand such radicalism and not at all criticized because one of our mutual acquaintances, a very respectable and brave person from kharkiv, i don't know if she would like me to mention her name, although i probably will , because in principle she wrote about it

publicly, this is nataliya zubar, whom i really... respect. i saw that she published such a post on social networks with a photo when she escaped from the bomb. you're still talking about navalny, but i don't care, i'm only worried about what happened here. i think i understand that kind of emotion, but i don't agree with it, i think mass death can also contribute to the bomb funnels will become smaller because politics affects it. well, we'll see. but i want to say that what natalia zubar is doing is wonderful, her position is simple. extremely important for me, it is close to politics, close to the world, pavel koval and maria gurska, thank you, see you next week, thank you, laughter, physical activity, sneezing, even during such a small load, urinary incontinence can make itself felt,

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