mystonalitic, president of the donbas social prospects research center. greetings, serhiy. good evening. well, actually, let's start right away, you try to answer this question that we are asking, whether the deputies of the verkhovna rada should limit foreign trains during the war, and in general, what does this whole story with controversies surrounding these trips mean. let's probably start with oleksiy. please, oleksii, your opinion on that. but to say that deputies, like any citizens of ukraine, should be completely free in their movements during the war, it is impossible to say, because you know, we had experience , the war began in the 14th year, and in our country , as everyone knows, representatives of a wonderful faction traveled to moscow, in fact, unless the trip was coordinated with the leadership of the verkhovna rada, that is, it turns out, what could they

... do, well, as it turned out, it is possible , therefore, of course, deputies must coordinate their trips with the leadership of the verkhovna rada, but it should not look like, you know, a kindergarten and a teacher or a teacher who determines who should go , to whom not to go, that is, you cannot give authority to managers of the verkhovna rada and... which go beyond the proper powers of the speaker and his deputies, that is, it is not for them to determine whether or not to be a lawmaker. well, that means , most likely, it is necessary to limit the leadership of the verkhovna rada in the possibility of prohibiting a deputy from doing something, that's how it turns out. yes, absolutely, absolutely, but again, it should be strict rules, that is, it should not be arbitrary, that is, based on something.

sergey, what is your opinion about this dispute and about the fact that it has already reached the european parliament, and well such reactions when the vice-prime minister says that something is being set on fire there, and then we are scolded by people from europe, that we are doing something wrong, who is ultimately to blame for the scolding, and somehow they do not consider it democratic enough ukrainian authorities. well , you know, olya, i think that both sides are to blame, to be honest, because i understand, on the one hand , poroshenko, and i don't always understand, at least they don't explain to us anymore, yes , why they ban deputies, i'm not a supporter of all deputies were now freely traveling abroad, because, excuse me, we already have enough power lives a separate life from the people, if now people cannot leave, and men , in fact, but... deputies will leave

just like that, without reason, so to speak, then this is a question, and a question that can cause a certain resonance in society , but if a deputy who goes there due to official necessity and is prohibited without justifying it, then this is a matter for the authorities, it is really oppression of political activity, i am not saying a proposal, but in general political activity of people's deputies, so it is possible. mps and civil servants, yes, what kind receive a salary in the verkhovna rada , so to speak, they should at least receive an explanation why they are not released, and then maybe there would not be such letters, but in this case i am not on the side of poroshenko either, because i believe that he -first of all, he had to take into account the fact that the person he is writing to is hungarian. and we

know the position of orban and hungary regarding ukraine and ukrainian european integration, yes, that is, well, this is a small factor, but a politician, such a large-scale politician as poroshenko should have taken it into account, this is the first, well, the second, really to put, well, in dependence, so to speak, the possibility of leaving, well, first of all for the opposition, that's what we're talking about, yes, that is, for yourself, for your supporters, but to put in dependence. this is in general the european integration of ukraine, and we understand that opponents of european integration in the european union will use this letter against our european integration, well, i also think it was politically ill-advised, at least to put it mildly, although there are questions in general, and you know , i have been told quite often lately that... donetsk in the 14th year there had

to somehow react to the people of bandera and everything else, yes, you know what i'm saying, i'm saying that the main mistake is people. despite the fact that there was a so-called bander threat or not, yes, the main mistake is that they appealed to a foreign state, to putin, if they had not shouted putin come, nothing would have happened, they had all the levers and opportunities to solve internal issues within the country, they had a faction, yes, the most powerful even at that time, even after the maidan, the party of regions faction, we remember, that is, tools were, but now, well, this is... such an indirect analogy, of course, but the problem is the same, we are trying to solve the internal problem, well, with the help of actually abroad, yes, that is , people who have their own interest in any case, and they will help us, and

in this case they will help poroshenko or the opposition, using it in their own political interests, this should be taken into account, that is, in my opinion , poroshenko is wrong in that... he generally appealed to external factors in solving an internal problem, to foreign politicians? well, i think that there the analogy you made, it not only cannot be direct, it is simply clearly incorrect, because when a special operation was taking place in the donbas at that time with the introduction of the russian military or special forces of the same girkin, and girkin himself said about it that nothing would it was not there, if they did not enter, they did not actually enter there. russian mercenaries and say that they did not hear donbas , well, excuse me, well, this is a completely different story than the fact that someone appealed to someone, there was no appeal to anyone, there was simply a neighboring country that would decide what to do now to take advantage of the moment and capture something

, the local residents wanted it, they didn't want it, but no one asked them objectively, olya, olya, i was in donetsk then, let's say, and took part in these events, and i'm glad now... from a person from lviv, that she has such a position that people in donbas are not to blame for anything at all, yes, everything was decided by russia, but a person from lviv, i do not live in lviv, i am a person from kyiv, but i am a channel, i think lviv, that's why i decided so, the more so i think that lately i hear a lot from lviv of a different position, once again let's make it up, let's not go back to that situation, let's make it up. simply to the fact that internal problems must be solved within the country. when we appeal to external political forces that have their own interests, they will always use these appeals for their own benefit, for their own political interests. that's all i wanted to say. well, you know, once again, when, no, i

don't know what were the motivations for not letting him go to munich, was orban there too, that's the question, it's not the first time. was, well but in the meantime, larisa, please tell me what you think about how correct it was to take this situation or not, really, well, to the european parliament somewhere, how correct can it be? well, listen, i absolutely do not agree with these theses that i hear now, which say that when men are not released, and deputies are traveling, men are not released because we have nothing to do. and because we have a constitution, a provision on martial law, we have a law that prohibits leaving, that is, in this case this is within the framework of the law, we do not have a law that prohibits deputies from fulfilling their duties as deputies, so they are not released, and this is arbitrariness, men are not released because

of martial law, these are completely different things, secondly, this logic about , which should not be tolerated, well, listen, this is the logic of a rapist. so what did you tell me, and now i have problems? well, there was no need to break the law. in this case, this is the logic of the abuser, you know, who begins to blame himself for exceeding his authority, breaking the law, or in some other way, doing there certain in this case we say administrative disgrace, as it is not only the opposition, any deputy is not released. we do not have them, we have them free , there is a law on deputies, they have certain duties and powers, they were chosen by the people, not by the people, not by volodymyr zelenskyi and not by snisarchuk, so in this case they can go anywhere , according to their parliamentary powers, and when they are not issued, well, in my opinion,

why, why should they be justified, in which of our legislation is this written, let's not to forget that any public service, any public official must... be governed by the law, and if the law does not allow it, then the official is prohibited, and in this case, when we heard that we have on the 14th , people went to moscow, well, listen, you know, in our country people went to moscow, because, because for some reason it was allowed, for example, in our country people went to the occupied territories, the same yevgeny balytsky, who now performs the functions of this gaulleiter of the zaporizhzhia region, he went to the crimea, which he is simply talking about, he even i did not deny this, but for example, scandals, when there are scandals in germany, german deputies go to the occupied crimea and it is a scandal for the whole world, and in... deputies do not go, well, this is a matter of our legislation, so in this case i would did not compare

the munich security conference with the party of regions that went to moscow on the eve of the war, we have to say here on the other hand that in this case, indeed, one or another oppression of the opposition can be used as proof that ukraine is not democratic country, and then the question arises, why do it, why for... use undemocratic mechanisms, for what? i understand when, for example, within the faction the ruler is a servant of the people, there are some prohibitions on leaving, they have their own schedule, because they need votes to vote, but our opposition, why do they completely regulate the parliamentary activities of other people , again, if deputies go abroad not for work, but to relax somewhere, well, we have a wonderful journalistic division. journalism investigation and these people will obviously not be re-elected, let the people of ukraine decide

how they look to the deputy they voted for, and but well, well, we are talking now, you know, like little children, what they did to you may not be wrong, but how bad you are, you complained, well, it’s a strange story in my opinion, and in the end, if they don’t release, well, not only poroshenko, there, for example, women from... the opposition were not released, but no do you expel any deputies, then the lists of those deputies who simply did not visit ukraine will be made public all this time, well, there are some, for some reason they continue to be deputies, by the way, and this is very strange against the background of the fact that the opposition is not allowed to go somewhere to a conference, let's close this topic, let's talk about what excited everyone so much this week, these are actually talks about the fact that gur made a statement that there is a danger and... some internal subversive actions, they even found such a name for them as maidan 3, well

, actually, in addition to what they are talking about they said this in a written statement, they also talked about it in more detail, yusov described in his speech, let's listen to this synchronicity, every time we hear such narratives that shake the country, inside our country, that delegitimize the acceptance of state. well, accordingly, we will understand for whom these deratives work, there are lists of people on which the enemy works and the task is to attract them in order to spread their rhetoric and influence the social and political situation in the country, often this is not done directly, and that is how such lists are known, that is that a person's name is on the list does not mean that he is a traitor, but she may be the object of the development of the interest of the enemy's special services, well... actually, oleksiy, let's start again with you, well , it was still disturbing, and to some extent, perhaps,

not only what was said was disturbing, but and the form of presentation of this entire message, and here is how to separate the form from the content of what is happening, here is where there is a real threat, and where is just some kind of rhetoric, here is just a very organic combination of form and content, you know that, well... in general, it is typical for special services, which means that the lists have not yet been agreed, they are probably in the stage of agreement, we will name these surnames later, but just in case , do not allow yourself too much, because you can end up on this list, and you can see how it is, no, you are not agents, they can just use you, but if you will not behave as you should, then we will tell about it separately, and again here... the question is not for the executive power or the previous power or the previous power, the special services

always, always work in us, unfortunately, and this is precisely evidence that they, on the one hand, of course, it is an honor to respect when they work to protect the country, but on the other hand, well , sometimes one often gets the impression that it is like in a joke, i would go to the lady, that is, we protect both the country and state interests, but. .. at the same time, we protect the interests of specific people in power, this combination actually works to destabilize the internal situation more than any plan there maidan-3 or shatun, as it was until recently, that is, there is already a question about the responsibility of the representatives of the special services, who allow you are like that, serhiu, be it please, well, from your impressions, again , and those of donetsk, even to what extent such plans, any shake-ups can be, well, that is , how realistic can this threat be in general from your point of view? well, first

of all, there are plans most likely, because i monitor the russian media and see it. russian polytechnologists, who wrote a long time ago at the beginning of the year that what it would be, so to speak, but of course not calling it maidan 3 and so on. secondly, i am not sure to what extent those plans, ah, let’s say, were correctly presented and designed precisely by our gur, because in in this case, i agree with my colleagues that, excuse me, gur is now becoming an instrument of internal politics, because there is someone, yes, who is in these plans in ukraine, but we do not name them, that is , anyone who will appear now, so to speak, no, from a perspective that is favorable to the authorities , in fact he can be a declared figure in these plans, so to speak, and accordingly an agent of the russian federation, if not an agent, directly, then at least an agent of influence,

yes and therefore it's certainly strange, well, even though colleagues... it's been a long time since there was a connecting rod, yes, we we remember, that is , there is nothing strange in this practice, but we would certainly like to get rid of it, firstly, after all, if we are moving somewhere, yes to the same europe, and secondly, i am not surprised that the government reacts to this plan, and the fact that the government, well, actually does nothing to get rid of the problem on which the russians are building this plan, that is , the problem of the issue of legitimacy, it will... stand, it objectively exists, and it is necessary to do something to solve it so that, i, i'm not talking about elections, by the way, i'm not a supporter of elections during martial law, it's impossible, simply, but there is a problem, it must be solved not simply in order to interfere with moscow, to implement some of its own plans there, because we , well, in ukraine, also have questions, they will be, and

this is objectively, people are so disposed to ask questions, that's why i'm in power. authorities, i would, well, i don't know, maybe we should think about a referendum, yes, about trusting the acting president in order not to hold elections and there was no question of legitimacy, maybe we should think, although i know that there was already an appeal to the constitutional court, yes, in in this sense, but in any case, it is necessary to solve the problem, and not, so to speak, those comments, or those commentators. who will comment on it is not beneficial for ukraine, well, larisa, please look, you could also observe such plans in the crimea when you were in the 14th-13th year, and it is obvious that, well, i absolutely agree with serhiy in that plan , that there are such plans, maybe they are called differently, but the authorities made such a statement

that there is such a plan, and from the point of view of you as a psychologist, and what is it... this had, well, as a result, the effect of this very statement on on ukrainian internal life, that is, what did they achieve that they made it public? the fact is that when we all observed similar plans to destabilize the situation, yes, that is , to incite the masses to some thesis that in crimea, that in donbas, what serhiy mentioned, some thesis was always launched there in crimea. this is a law about the russian language, which means that there was a violent ukrainization of donetsk and luhansk , there were theses that were also related, they say that the people of banderiv will come, four buses arrived there with the people of banderiv, they will now kill, all this was, but what is the point, all these theses, which were launched, were launched in order

to agitate the masses and, under the guise of these agitated masses, to carry out. sabotage , seizure of power, destabilization of local authorities, seizure of administrative buildings and all that, this very plan, as they called it, maidan 3, great, russia will tell that president volodymyr zelenskyi is illegitimate, and some russian agents, even those who do not know, that they are agents, they will tell it, so the uprising of mas here is generally foreseen within the framework of the plan that the gur here tells us, who will stand up, that i want to ask, but in crimea it is clear who was there, russian saboteurs and all this russian mass were brought in, it was clear who in donbas pretended to be our boys, and they rebelled. who should rise here? when gur tells us that they oppose some plan of maidan 3, i.e. popular unrest, popular

masses, overthrow of the government, destabilization of the situation in the country, that they will now be on some, on some lists, looking for people who say something, no, oh wait, that's more like censorship because even if you you say that... a person works in information for the kremlin, you have to show the curators, money, dungeons, if you say that these people are preparing, for example, to bring out some groups there that are supposed to imitate this maidan 3, well, these same groups have somewhere to be, well, these provocateurs who are gathering in the crowd, and they will be, so the kremlin needs to do something like that, to do maidan 3, where are these people, where are their names? well, that is, in this case it looks absolutely strange, and even i do not agree that it is similar to the planchana, which we were told there, because according to the connecting rod, we

told that the essence of all these narratives is to shake the unity of ukrainian society, there was no one there, no one predicted mass unrest, but here is mass unrest, which no one saw, no one investigates, the names of the saboteurs are not mentioned, the names of the curators are not named but named theses. which cannot be said, and why not? well , many people will sit in the kitchen and say that zelensky is illegitimate, many people will sit in the kitchen and say that zelensky is a martian, many will sit and say that zelensky is not a zelensky at all, but it is putin from the refrigerator, and what should we do about it now, well, it's some kind of strange story, it seems that our authorities are more interested in who says what and what they don't say, instead of taking some actions. to understand what actions of the government can stir up public concern, bring people to the streets, this is what we need to do, we need to focus on actions, not words, that's the problem, that we

actually have the impression that we are endlessly playing some kind of political technology, forgetting that we live in a time where they actually happen real actions, knocking out or inaction in one or other nuances, which can lead to one or another disturbances, the mass and... we understand that this is definitely not a phrase about the illegitimate, or maybe the illegitimate zelensky, what can bring people to the streets, this is the collapse of the front, this can be a problem, and we must do everything to prevent this from happening, and instead of telling us about some cranks, well , i will remind you that parliamentary elections should already be held in our country, and when they did not happen, or rather, before they did not happen, there was already an attempt from the side the russians to launch the... theses, well , did any of us notice at all that these theses were being launched, no, because they did not spread in any way, no one reacted to them, and you know, i have the impression that if

the president's office had not focused on these new theses of the kremlin so much, we would not have noticed this russian campaign either, because it is simply, well, it is passing somewhere there, telegram channels , something else. i mean, well, it's, it's not, it's not the reality that's really disturbing, you wanted to add something, yeah sergey, yes, yes, i just want to remind you that during the large-scale invasion, there was also a calculation that there would be a disturbance inside the country, but there the calculation was that the authorities would make some kind of compromise with russia, unacceptable for a significant . a lot of ukrainians, well, for example, i will remember , i reminded the street journal about the istanbul agreements, which either existed or did not

exist, well, at least now putin is brandishing them, but then, of course, it could cause disturbance, disturbance of people, well, i don’t i think that people's agitation will raise the question of how much legitimate, legitimate zelensky, let's, you know, take a break now. and exactly what you started to say, yes, we, we will talk about him right there, so let's take a break now and come back to this conversation after the break. there are discounts on kombi hotsip mushroom, 20% in pharmacies plantain for you and savings. there are discounts on lactial, 10% in psarynyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. there are discounts on mikrolax 20% in pharmacies in... in pharmacies psyllium bam and oschad, there are discounts on spazmalgon tablets 15% in pharmacies

in... empty for you and save premium sponsor the national team is united by football together stronger, a separate platoon of unmanned aerial systems sapsan state. of the special transport service, appeal to the viewers of the espresso tv channel with a request to join the collection of crowns and technical equipment for our unit. thank you, glory to ukraine, heroes, every week maria gurska meets with the head of the committee on foreign affairs of the polish sejm,

paweł, the representative of the government of poland for the restoration of ukraine. as always, we talk about the most important things that happened this week in poland, ukraine, europe. what is being said about ukraine in the eu, how should we perceive the statements of european politicians and what will our accession to the eu look like? in the project about politics about the world with maria gurska on sundays at 15:30 with a repeat at 22:00 in cooperation with sestri eu. events, events that are happening right now and affect our lives. of course, the news feed reports on them. however, it is not enough to know what is happening, it is necessary to understand. antin borkovskii and invited experts soberly assess the events, analyze them, modeling our future. every saturday at 1:10 p.m repeat on sunday at 10:10. studio zahid with anton borkovsky at espresso. well, then, i will remind you about our poll, whether people's deputies should be restricted from working

trips abroad during the war, you guys. you see, call, yes, no, your answer, and we, let's continue what, what began to say about this story, oleksiy mustafin, namely the newspaper the wall street journal claims to have received access to the draft agreement between ukraine and russia of april 15, 2022, these are the glorious istanbul agreements, and that's what she writes, well, first of all, how she characterizes it all is quite interesting, she says that the contours of the agreement... between the contours of the agreement that the russian leader probably wants can be seen in the draft peace treaty developed by the russian and ukrainian negotiators in april 22, according to the wall street journal, the document demonstrates what deep concessions the ukrainian negotiators were ready to make in the first weeks of the war and what compromises ukraine can push russia, ukraine and russia to make now. so, well, actually, she is

talks a little about the same concessions, it talks about not joining nato, well , we know that, we knew it in principle in april 2022, but it is possible that we knew a little less, it is about the number of armed forces that russia demanded limit 85 thousand people, 342 tanks, 519 artillery shells. at the same time, russia wanted the flight range of ukrainian missiles to be limited to 40 km, well , that's how it is now, to explain, we wouldn't even be able to protect our front line if such a restriction were in effect now. well, according to this document, the ukrainian side at the negotiations demanded 250,000 military personnel, which we also see now, it is completely unrealistic to defend ourselves with 800 tanks and 1,900

artillery units, it is ridiculous. to speak , well, actually, the crimean peninsula should have been recognized as occupied by russia, and it would have remained under the influence of moscow, well, somewhere there, putin and zelensky should have talked separately about the fate of the actually occupied donetsk and luhansk regions, such an agreement, and they talk about it as something that, well, you can talk even now, such an impression is formed, and that's it in fact, oleksiy already said that... yes, i absolutely agree that if such conditions had become known in april 22, it would have caused an uproar and probably even mass protests. we all understand this very well, because we remember what happened when the minsk agreements were signed, in which there were no such restrictions, remember, they simply did not exist, also larisa.