puts where it is needed , but today the authorities are talking about the fact that something must be done so that ukrainians who visit abroad return already, because they have become safer, because taxes are needed, because it is necessary that the western countries themselves do not pay money to receive ukrainian refugees, how realistic is this approach? well, let's take it one by one: firstly, when we say that ukrainians should be returned, well... it is desirable that they return, not to return them piece by piece, of course, then it is more important that they were in ukraine, after it ends, i know your position regarding the end of the war, in many respects i share it, but so that when the post-war reconstruction begins, well, let's say, the war will end its hot phase, because it cannot continue in the hot phase 10 - 20-30 years, well, i definitely don't believe in that, it's something, it has to be something? er then they will be very

needed, and every day they are abroad, with a lower probability of return, every day literally, because they are adapting there, well, according to almost all data sources that i i see, well, more than half are already working , well, that is, they are getting rid of the status of this protection little by little, yes, yes, yes, they work, they adapt, children must... attend school or kindergarten, because in most countries it is mandatory , the issue is not discussed here, and something is destroyed here every day, and therefore the probability of their return is decreasing, so it is very difficult, very important that they feel their ukrainianness, that they feel that they are waiting here, and i don't know how much a person will feel that he belongs here they are waiting when they say that it is necessary to stop paying... no, well, that's right, serious people

don't say the same thing, to be honest, even i, i can't imagine purely technically, but as a democratic country that allowed staying on its territories of people from other countries, and under certain conditions of stay , and that she will not help a family with children to live, i cannot imagine it, you and i consider the president of ukraine a serious person, suggests that this money be sent for ukraine, so that ukraine can decide for itself how to help your wow, that's a little bit different, i mean the suggestion that they don't pay anything at all, i can't imagine that, and to be honest, there's another problem, too many europeans are interested in our workforce, so i i do not believe in this, from the word go , well, as far as i understand, we are talking about the return of people who have not...

now found a place for themselves on the market of the european union and other western countries, people who really live on welfare, let's yes, well, first of all, the majority of these people do not work, women do not work, because they have children children who do not yet attend kindergarten, or they are some old family members who will not work with them, but they are here, the question here is not that they will not work here, that is the second question. and the first thing is that they actually cannot work there, they are of working age, but they are not really able to work, and on the other hand, if they have not found a job there in two years with the help, the active help of the local government, then i am sorry, what taxes will they pay here, i have a question, well, that's why there is always such a balance between our efforts to see more able-bodied people.

and the understanding that western economies are currently fulfilling the role that the ukrainian economy can fulfill, that is, the maintenance of these citizens, let's say those who are in relatively safe regions, this was before the first year of the war, it was definitely western ukraine , now it 's more central ukraine, so they get help from the state, so it's small, but considering the huge number of people... it's not that small, i'd still like to go back to the issue of people's participation in the reconstruction, because we can reach such a conditionally political compromise with you, although it is not up to us that some such hot phase of the war, it will end there in the coming years, well, let's say so, because there simply won't be both , the parties have the resources for an intensive war, but again if such a war ends without a peaceful one. an agreement without political agreements,

that is, on the one hand there is no war, and on the other hand there is a danger of war, then the question does not even arise whether people will return, it arises the question is, does reconstruction take place in such a situation when... every time you come across a situation that if you build something here, they stand there, no, no, they don't advance, they just stand, yes, i understand, and this is such a question , how long will this object that you will build, in which you will invest money, even if you are a ukrainian investor, i am not talking about a foreigner, i understand, well, first of all, i think that giants that can be destroyed quite quickly , they won't rebuild, at least. in such a situation, and secondly, what about the baltic countries or poland? ours the idea that there is a nato nuclear umbrella, at the moment when we decide that it does not exist, there will also be a completely different situation with investments, but, by the way, we

can analyze with you whether the investment movement in the direction of these countries, now it is also absolutely interesting, by the way , a topic for research, what will happen to investments in the countries of central europe after 2022, i would still look at eastern europe more than central, eastern - what is it? well, this is poland, well, i believe that it is exactly central, central - it is already austria, austria is already western, it is political geography, it is changing to ours, i keep saying that if ukraine becomes a member of the european union in the coming years, then i will be central europe, and eastern will be belarus with russia, well somewhere it should be the east, but russia is not europe anyway, it is belarus. europe, well, it will be eastern, well, so it won’t be the only one, why , well, it may be so, politically it may be so, maybe the political system is different, yes according to, so in this regard, i meant purely geographical, yes , i.e. look here the visegrad four, what is happening

there, and to look at the baltic states, it is an interesting idea, by the way, well, then we will be able to predict the future investment movement with you in principle, because if it turns out that investments are now being concentrated. more there in the west of the south of europe, do they even go to other continents , relatively speaking, that is why we are talking about an economic boom in mexico, maybe because this is a territory that no one will attack for sure, how to say, no one will attack if and venezuela will not behave as predicted, therefore, you see that now the situation is practically unpredictable, who could have expected that it would be developed in this way... well , who? well, here is a person in front of you who predicted this development, that they will jump on it, but about the fact that it will go like this in the future, about the fact that there will be a lot of gossip, i will tell you, i think that

after the russian-ukrainian war it was also possible one can talk about this from the point of view that, by and large, now, since we are talking about the need... for certain countries to think about the lives of the civilian population, war is not can be quick, you know, a quick war is when you bomb everything to the bone, by the way , that's what the united states' operation in iraq looked like, it was a massive bombing, but still it was pinpoint, yes, but in any case even , not dresden, yes, but in any case , no one can afford even that now, even during the time of george bush jr., the political situation has changed, and that's why a year is better than. on the other hand , what happened in afghanistan and was for a long time, well, it was the next stage of military operations, then there was still, no, i agree that such a war as it was before cannot happen anymore, we can talk in the other direction, we can

discuss with you the question of whether there will be an outflow of the population after the end of the hot phase of the war, because the end, you mean the lifting of martial law, the lifting of martial law. we are now also in a rather artificial situation, like in a test tube , well, to be honest, i rather believe that it should be preserved for the time being, because, well, let's say this, the fervor that was in 22, when there were huge queues to military commissars and everything nothing else, now... it is observed, and according to polls, well, i am skeptical of most polls, but less so in ukraine there is not such a high proportion of people who say that they are ready to defend ukraine with weapons in their hands, other the question is that

there are already many at the front, well, a certain part of them have already died or are seriously wounded, this is also something that must be taken into account, but i am afraid that if we were to allow... everyone to leave now, we would not count many men, there is already an issue here question: you are a citizen of ukraine, you did not renounce your ukrainian citizenship, when there was peacetime, you were satisfied with it , you were satisfied with the fact that you could travel there without a visa, or something else, you were satisfied, but something was satisfied, then after the start of the game , the rules of the game can no longer be changed, i absolutely agree with this, but i'm not talking about that, i 'm talking about the situation when you keep saying that this heated phase of hostilities should end in the next few years, and we decided that this is an axiom, although it may not be an axiom, that's it. .. the end of the hot phase of the war means the end of martial law and mobilization, this is what the president has now

turned to the verkhovna rada with a proposal to extend it for the next six months, and so it will be automatically extended, will be extended on some day when there will be no longer this hot phase of the war, either de facto or with the signing of some armistice agreements, not even ukrainian-russian ones, but with mediators, it has stopped and the verkhovna rada of ukraine will not extend martial law, which means we will not extend it. there is no reason, well, yes, it arises, now the number one question begins, will there be a second wave, will there be no migration, whether or not there will be migration , there will be, there will be, there will be, because men and women who settled there, adapted there, who do not have housing and work here, they will most likely go to them there, such a threat definitely exists, there is no doubt, but again, what is the ukrainian state to do here to conduct negotiations with. and

here you won't do anything at all, here no legislation will stand in the way of this, none, well, simply because it cannot be done, and i think that the only possibility is if there is an economic rise in ukraine, after the end of the hot phase, if here you can will realize itself if there is a restoration of housing, well, infrastructure in general, but primarily housing, and if businesses understand that it is easier and more profitable to make money here than there, then there is a great chance that many people will return, and i would bet not only for this latest wave, which started after february 24, and also for the return of those who left earlier, these may even be children. that is, second -generation migrants, it is already possible, they can be returned,

and it seems to me that this is the direction of our actions, and if we cannot return them, then to turn them, well, into peculiar agents of ukraine, so that they contribute to the image of ukraine , to such, you know, its improvement, this is such an option of israel or ireland, yes, yes, and without this, without this there will be no investment in ukraine, but here it arises, you know what the question is. about the return, in israel they are always happy for any repatriate who comes, and in israel they don't say to anyone, listen, you weren't with us all these wars, but i imagine that tomorrow i flew to israel, i say, you know i want to become a citizen of israel, this lady is at the border for me control or, i don't know, in this information, they issue citizenship, they say, well, take your passport, but where were you on october 7, where were you? on october 7, 2023, why were you not interested in israel at that time, i know for sure that i

will not face such a reaction at all, there is already a reaction in ukraine, well, there is a division, of course, the division is social, and it will show, people are returning, they want to do business, so they actually have more opportunities than those who stay here, and those who stay here feel that they serve the interests of those who did not survive the war, because they are worse off, but this requires a lot of consideration. not state policy, that is why i am categorically against giving them any special preferences for the sake of returning people abroad, but this cannot be done in any case, the only people, well, whom society will forgive and even applaud for any what are the preferences, they are military, uniform, more or less.

those who i didn't leave anywhere , not only abroad, but from my native places, who stayed like this all the time, well, kharkiv residents, i know a lot, i can already see them in kyiv, the person says, i didn't leave anywhere, that is, here there are, of course, such moments, and if the authorities make mistakes, this one... which for now is only division, division is normal, it can turn into a split, but then it will be bad, well, this indicates that that some are needed. and they need to be adapted, and perhaps those who were and are today in transcarpathia need to be adapted even more, let's say either or i don't know there in the frankiv region, because there is no work as such, well, for as long as i can remember, i

have been dealing with these problems, and for as long as western ukraine - it was a region with a surplus of labor, well now. it seems to me that the situation is different, no , it doesn’t matter, but where did it all come from, well, because a huge number of people who work remotely, and we are dealing with another economy in the world, well, i already saw that even japan wants to give foreigners have so-called digital nomad visas, japan does not at all i wanted to see no one, not everyone like that, but we also have such a generation of people, you know , it turned out quite differently for us, those who had an education, who could count... work remotely, they went abroad, mostly abroad , well, it is the smallest in poland, where 18% of the rural population is there, and the remaining 82% is urban, and let's say there is much more space in germany, in the czech republic, in italy, and what does it mean that

the rural population did not go abroad, where will it go? if you can't live there, if it's an occupied territory, if that the territory of active hostilities, then they went within the borders of ukraine, within the borders of ukraine , the rural population is not very well able to work remotely, the rural population is a different sector after all, so the problems in the west, they remained, and i think that this is the forerunner internal migrants. from the west to central ukraine is connected with this, because in central ukraine there is work, let's say , well, i don't know, well, ihp, it works, but it hasn't gone anywhere. and we can talk about the appearance of some new ones already at this moment, let's say, urban centers that conditionally replace those urban centers that were almost lost in

these 10 years, well, not only donetsk and luhansk, but also... and kharkiv, which nevertheless decreased in terms of population, it decreased, it decreased, kherson definitely decreased, well, different weight categories in kharkiv and in kherson. kharkiv is a classic metropolis, and i am absolutely convinced that despite its proximity to the border, kharkiv will retain the functions of a technical capital, this does not mean a mass of technical factories, i would say. convinced that the tank the plant must be removed from there , and it must be removed both for reasons of ensuring the integrity of this plant so that it is not destroyed, and for reasons of public safety, because when trying to destroy the kharkiv plant, they get anywhere, and therefore this will also have value,

but well, higher educational institutions of a technical profile, there are laboratories. research institutes will most likely remain there, but it is not so simple either, we know that the ukrainian economy of higher education has always relied on foreign students, in kharkiv, you know how many of them there were, and now the question arises as to which of the foreigners can go to lviv, well relatively speaking to kyiv, kharkiv and odesa do not look like that anymore, i would say attractive places for definitely, especially kharkiv, odesa is still so-so, but kharkiv is definitely not, but you know. all this is compensated by the fact that our people go to study, and i, by the way, unlike most people who analyze the situation with education, i believe that education is not at all a job market, but about thinking, yes, education - this, education is about human development, about

the ability to contact, about the ability to communicate, about the ability to analyze, about the ability to express one's thoughts. to prove one's opinion, the justice of one's opinion, and so on and so on and so on, and about the labor market - this is school, this is college, this is vocational and technical institutions, this is what we need to talk about, and here is what to do with it, here i absolutely do not know, because maybe after the war something will change, because here, well, i expect that after all... serious western companies will come, perhaps they will come not so much for reasons of help as for reasons of their own business. if it is possible to make money here, then they will come, if it is not possible, then private business will not come here, and western companies - it still means different working conditions, a different

attitude towards employees, and different wages, but if this is all changed after the war, then we can count on the fact that young people will go to learn working professions, if it does not change, then no one will go there, and this will become, well... a very serious challenge for of the ukrainian labor market, very seriously , yes, again, a good question about this post-war category, let's imagine that children went to school in 2002, well, i say conditionally, this is such a reference point, a person is studying in the first grade, already now she is entering the third grade in ukraine under these conditions, well, let's say she has been for seven years... she studies at school during the war, and in ukraine, to what extent will this be a child who will think about her professional future, how many children in general , who live

in such a stressful situation can be considered active participants in the education market, let's say, if not labor, no, they will be participants, because in ukraine, by some miracle , the attitude towards education is preserved. and not only boys , so that it would be clear, but also girls, they, it is really preserved, therefore they will be participants, another question is how psychologically they will be ready for it, well, that’s what i ’m talking about, it’s very much survival in stressful conditions, and we have to agree with you that it is much easier for us to survive in stressful conditions, because we are, in principle, in principle adults, yes, adults, we know how to control our emotions somehow. children can't, i once told you that for me, when i heard from the mouth of my four-year-old grandson, babushka, when i got out,

i would annihilate them all, he was talking about russia, we are trying so that the children heard this, did not watch television, did not feel this hatred, because children should not grow up in ignorance, but it is and it is the vast majority, and how can it be otherwise? how, therefore , psychologists, social psychologists should prepare for this, we are fixated on problems of veterans, veterans, veterans, how to adapt them, and they give me examples of afghanistan, examples of vietnam, in the states, these are completely different things, it is not massive, but the question is not even, the question is not even this, the question is not even this, ukrainians will either return victorious from the front, or not at all. well, you yourself are talking about the end of the intensive phase of hostilities, the people who will return, after the intensive phase, they will be neither

winners nor non-winners, but they will not be defeated, they will not, of course, they will not be defeated, what was the tragedy of vietnam for the states, they returned defeated, what was the case with afghanistan for the soviet union, the scale was not the same, it is clear that it was not the same, but less so, everyone understood that ... fought for nothing and lost, that will not happen here, you have already mentioned about boys and girls, then it is necessary to understand what will be the general distribution of these boys and girls in the future, the demographic situation is also important, in this situation, when, after all, women, on the one hand, men fight, on the other hand, women they leave, yes, and approximately the gender balance is preserved, that is why yes, yes, well, this is an interesting moment, yes, because i wanted to understand... as a rule, the gender balance is disturbed, well, after the war, yes, but not in this situation, no in this situation , because it is very poor, well, today we believe that somewhere around 6 million of our fellow citizens are

abroad, among them, it seems, 30% are men, so you can say that these are conditional numbers, well, not exactly, but children approximately up to 40%, from 30 to 40%, it depends on the country, another 20 percent are men of various age and of varying degrees of health, and the rest are women, well, that's why you won't be afraid that the adaptation of people who, especially children who are currently growing up in european countries, will be difficult in ukraine, and because they are simply will stop perceiving what we perceive as the norm, as the norm, and this is very good, what am i thinking about, i'm just looking at the landscape from the windows of your office, and imagining. to myself that i would not have grown up in kyiv, even in the soviet one, i would have grown up in paris, well , even, not even in paris, at least in some strasburgi, let there be rosci, i'd like to do it

now. i would look, i think, and i would think, what a horror, i would look, i wouldn’t think, i wouldn’t think at all, because the elementary apartment is small, by the way, much smaller than ours , what is the location, i don’t know, well, i i don't want to talk about poland, in strasbourg, the roofs , the buildings, this, this, this, it's very beautiful, it's very romantic, dear, and you see romanticism here, well, look carefully, where is the romanticism, rise a little. higher than on the floors you will see, i climb higher on the floors when i look at the roofs of lviv there, and i see that they have not been restored, that’s not the point , you know, i felt creepy, yesterday or the day before yesterday i drove past the arsenal, it was scary , to the factory, well, yes, and there it is, well , namely, the building of the arsenal itself, the windows were broken there, i didn't

know what got there. recently, well, on the other hand, the arsenal is now turning into a big cultural space, and it's also , you know, also big, it's just that we're becoming more like no-no, i'm not talking about that, i'm talking about getting there, it's true , but i say itself about the civilizing space, you know, because relatively speaking, in the same, i would say foot court, in which a person enters in arsenal, he enters in manchester or in madrid, and he will not feel it either. i would say that ours is cooler, not because we had a bigger arsenal, but in the center of the city, but the fact itself, here there are absolutely obvious parallels with urban landscapes, but i would say, urban development landscapes, well it's it it'll all pass, it 'll all pass, and you know, i paid attention to the fact that it was before the war, when our labor migrants were returning, even if they returned, well, on small ones. they

changed the psychology of those around them. the psychology of the immediate environment was changing. they treated many things differently there. still, if we talk about how the population that is here should adapt to the circumstances, that is also a question. this is also a question of the coming years, how to create jobs for people, to what extent does the state have the ability to support them, those who... did not interfere, everyone expects the state not to interfere, it is true, but there are people who need help now , is, there are, there are people, i am talking about business, business, you see that the state needs to take taxes and taxes from the same army, but please pay attention, the anxiety has not stopped yet, the cafe has already opened, come and drink coffee, and a good one at that coffee, by the way, coffee has become

better than it was. much better, well, it 's because people can't afford not to work even in dangerous conditions, because they lose, it's life, of course, in the first months of the war, you remember that everything was closed absolutely harshly, no, well now also big big super, yes, these scavengers threaten to destroy a large number of people at once, of course. but on the other hand, these small coffee shops, small restaurants, they work, but we, again, i'm not talking about this, i'm talking about how to find their city for those people who currently do not have their place in the labor market, well, we can't create an infinite number of coffee shops, we definitely can't, moreover, even such a small city as kyiv, which actually hasn't been industrial in recent years, it's still not...

it's not paris, it's not london, the fact is that now a large number of people receive money from the public budget, this is the money of western taxpayers, and they spend this money in these same cafes and supermarkets, if they will not receive this money, the whole this line of business will also disappear, well, on the one hand, yes, and on the other hand, if ukraine still spends its money on the war, let's be honest, on the war yes, yes on the war, if it stops. if the war ends, there will be no need to spend in such a large amount money for the war, you see, we come to the point with you all the time, and this is not the first time that if there is a final, that is, we find, if there is no final, then there is nothing to talk about, you know, we are now leading an interesting study on the resilience of the ukrainian economy, and we have arrived.