the president of the united states, who is at the disposal of the pentagon, uh, well, i understand , that is, this is a way to increase pressure, why give a little and so that everything remains in order, when you can provoke a big crisis, and then use this crisis to pressure and get no 4 billion, and 60, well, it's clear, well, somewhere somewhere yes, somewhere yes, but here, of course , there is an interesting story that we have already lost in action. we have enormous pressure along the entire front line, everyone understands, well, even the western media understand, and some observers, that ukraine's failures at the front are completely due to the fact that there are not enough weapons, but only this factor, because the planes are not shot down, not enough russians, manpower is not destroyed, because there is nothing, there are simply no artillery shells, there are a lot of everything... such different stories,

and so with from this point of view, it will of course also have a strong enough influence, and in principle, i see that it has even influenced a little bit our european allies, who have looked at this incomprehensible situation in the united states, if this situation has arisen now under biden, then what can already to arise if, god forbid, trump is elected, and everyone cheered up, well, the french president cheered up. countries, where they talked precisely about supporting ukraine, about how they could provide armed support in the first place, and there president macron said that it is possible, it may be about sending, well actually some military, directly, then debates began, on the one hand, there were several statements, including stoltenberg's, by the poles that neither could do this. to be, on

the other hand maya kalas said that no, it is maybe after that macron came back and said no, it wasn't a mistake, that's how he talked about it, let's see what he said, verbatim, this very quote, he said this way that every word that i pronounce on this topic, is measured, thought out and balanced, he said, when the first series of, shall we say, discussions took place, and for her part, the prime minister of estonia, kaia kalas. also stated that, after all, western leaders should not rule out the possibility of introducing ground troops into ukraine, since it was would be a defensive reaction. let's see her statement as well. russia wants to intimidate me and estonia and thus force us to refrain from making decisions in support of ukraine. western unity, everything that annoys them so much. but i'm convinced that we shouldn't be... afraid, and we

shouldn't refrain from making such decisions, because that's what terrorists want, and that's how they operate, they want to see our fear, and the only answer is that we don't we are afraid, we are doing the right thing, these statements of the deployment of ground forces and all this discussion, what is it so this is some kind of rate hike, this is some kind of subtle message, what is it anyway? well, first of all, i welcome such a discussion, it is a little, well, it stirs up this quagmire, which was formed during two years of war, which infuriates us, when the financial support there for the past year was 90% less than for the year there on the 23rd , in the first year of the war by 90%, our minister of defense said that... even

from those contracts that were already, you know, so reinforced concrete, we received half of the weapons very late, and where we still haven't received, that is, the situation was, well, just terrible, and what happened, you said that there was a certain influence, the situation in america, it is not a certain influence, it had such a cold shower effect, and for the first time the europeans understood what ... we are talking about have been saying since the very beginning, trump with his rhetoric, and the trumpists who say, oh my god , why do we need ukraine and europe, what the hell is going on, let them figure it out, europeans just understand that ukraine is europe, and the war is going on to the european continent, if formally there in america from time to time there is this tendency of presidents who they say that you should take care of yourself and not look beyond the borders of the continent, then... and

europeans understand that the fate of their continent is what is happening in ukraine, and the result of the war in ukraine is colossal, directly affecting the future of the continent, and therefore... european politicians , even the same scholz, who we are now slandering again, and he is for what, he called on european leaders to wake up and significantly increase the allocation of defense funds, and germany became second only to the united states, and in general, collective europe speaks practically in unison about the need to compensate or minimize those risks. which arose in connection with the delay in support of ukraine by the united states, and in general europeans began to talk about the importance and necessity of much less dependence, defense or security of europe on who will be the president in america, what

wasp will bite there that the speaker of the congress, they do not want to be dependent, and they began to change dramatically. relationship and here macron, because france, let's know france, we just ran out of time, absolutely, sorry, thank you very much to oleg rybachuk, in my opinion , this was a good statement by macron, but it would be even better if they started giving us russian assets and on time bought shells that they could buy outside of the european union. verdict with serhiy rudenko, from now on in a new two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests. foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, as well as feedback, you can express your opinion on a bad day with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and tune in, verdict with serhiy rudenko, every weekday from 8 to 10 pm at espresso. we

continue the verdict, now we have a journalism club, and we will discuss such topics. objects of influence. ukrainian intelligence has a list of those involved in the kremlin plan "maidan-3". why hasn't the name been made public yet? readiness for negotiations and nuclear threats. putin's speech contained many contradictions. what message did the russian dictator want to send to the world. indiscriminate restriction of political activity. the european parliament is concerned that some people's deputies are not allowed abroad. are such restrictions necessary in times of war? and i remind you of our survey: whether

deputies of the verkhovna rada should be restricted from working trips abroad during the war. if your answer is yes, call 0800 2113. 81, if not, 08021382, well, everyone, all calls are free, of course, and colleagues have joined us, these are our wonderful journalists, oleksiy mustafin, journalist, historian, publicist, media manager, congratulations, oleksia, good evening, larisa voloshina, journalist, political psychology, good evening, larisa, congratulations. and serhii garma, journalist, analyst, president of the donbas center for social prospects research. i congratulate sergey. good evening. well, actually, let's start right away, you try to answer this question that we are asking, whether the deputies of the verkhovna rada should limit foreign trains during

the war, and in general, what does this whole story with controversies surrounding these trips mean. let's probably start with oleksiy, please, oleksiy. your opinion, of course, is to say that deputies, like any citizens of ukraine, should be free to move under during the war completely, it is impossible to say , because you know, we had experience, the war began in the 14th year, and we had representatives of a wonderful faction, as everyone knows, went to moscow, in fact, if we did not agree with the leadership of verkh'. council trips , that is, it turns out that they could also get out, well , as it turned out, they can, so of course, deputies should coordinate their trips with the leadership of the verkhovna rada, but it should not look like, you know, a kindergarten and

a teacher , which determines who can go, who can't go, i.e. it's not possible to grant authority. to the heads of the verkhovna rada, who go beyond the actual powers of the speaker and his deputies, that is, they should not decide to go. to be a deputy or not to go? well, that is, it is most likely necessary to limit the leadership of the verkhovna rada in the possibility of prohibiting a deputy from something, so it turns out, yes absolutely, absolutely, but again, these should be strict rules, that is, it should not be arbitrary, that is, decisions should be made on the basis of something. sergey, what is your opinion about this dispute and about what it has already come to of the european parliament, and well... such reactions when the vice-prime minister says that something is being set on fire there, and then

they send messages from europe that we are doing something wrong, who is ultimately to blame for that scold her and somehow do not consider the ukrainian government sufficiently democratic? well, you know, olya, i think that both sides are to blame, to be honest, because i understand poroshenko on the one hand and i don't always understand... at least they don't explain to us why they ban it, and to the deputies, i'm not a supporter of all deputies now freely traveled abroad, because in our country, excuse me, the government already lives a rather separate life from the people, if now people cannot leave, and men in fact, and deputies will leave just like that, and without reasons, so to speak, then this is a question, and a question that can cause in society. a certain resonance, but if a deputy who goes there due to official necessity and is prohibited

without justifying it, then this is a matter for the authorities, it is really oppression of political activity, i am not talking about the opposition, yes, in general, the political activity of the people deputies, that is why it is possible that deputies are civil servants, and who receive a salary in the verkhovna rada, so... they should at least receive an explanation why they are not released, and then maybe there would not be such letters, but in this case i not on poroshenko's side either, because i think that , first of all, he should have taken into account the fact that the person he is writing to is hungarian, and we know the position of orban and hungary regarding ukraine and ukrainian european integration, yes, that is, it's, well, it's a small factor, but... a politician, such a large-scale politician as poroshenko should have taken it into account, this is the first thing, and the second thing is to really put, well,

in dependence, so to speak, the possibility of leaving, well, first of all, it is for the opposition, yes, that is, for himself and for his supporters, but to put in dependence, it is generally the european integration of ukraine, and we understand that there will be, well, opponents of european integration in itself. union to use this letter against our european integration, well, i also think it was politically ill-advised, at least to put it mildly, although there are questions in general, and you know recently, i have been told quite often that donetsk in the 14th year had to somehow react to the people of bandera and everything else, yes, you know what i'm saying, i'm saying that the main mistake of the people, despite the fact , that there was a bander threat, so-called or

not, yes, the main mistake is that they appealed to a foreign state, to putin, if they had not shouted putin come, nothing would have happened, they had all the leverage and opportunities to decide internal issues within the country, they had a faction, yes, the most powerful, even on that time, even after the maidan, the faction of the party of regions, we remember, that is, the tools... were there, but now, well, this is such an indirect analogy, of course, but the problem is the same, we are trying to solve an internal problem, ah, well with the help of actually abroad, yes, that is, people who have their own interest in any case, and they will help us, and in this case, help poroshenko or the opposition, using it in their own political interests, this should be taken into account, that is , well, in my opinion. poroshenko is not right in that he appealed to solution of the internal problem to external

factors, to external politicians. well , i think that the analogy that you made, it not only cannot be direct, it is simply clearly incorrect, because when in donbas at that time there was just a special operation with the introduction of the russian military or special forces of the same girkin, and himself girkin said about this that nothing would have happened if the russian mercenaries had not actually been introduced, had not entered there, and to say that they did not hear donbas, well , excuse me, well, this is a completely different story than the fact that someone to someone appealed, it was not there appeals to whom. there was simply a neighboring country that decided that it could take advantage of the moment and seize something. whether the local residents wanted it or not, but no one asked them objectively. olya, olya, i was in donetsk then, let’s say, yes, and took part in these events, and i am pleased to hear now, from a person from lviv, that she has such a position that the people of

donbas are not to blame for anything at all, yes , everything was decided by russia, but i'm not a person from lviv, i don't live in lviv, i'm... a person from kyiv, but i'm a channel i think from lviv, that's why i decided, moreover, i think that lately i hear a lot from lviv a different position, once again, let's reduce it, let's not return to that situation, let's reduce it simply to the fact that internal problems must be solved inside the country, when we appeal to external political forces that have their own interests, they will always be used. these appeals for my own benefit, for my own benefit , for my own political interests, that's all i wanted to say, well, you know, again, if not i don't know what the motivations were to be released to munich as well, was orban there too, that's the question, it wasn't the first time, but in the meantime, marisa, please

tell me what you think about how correct this situation was in general. whether or not to bring it to the european parliament, how correct can it be? well, listen, i fundamentally disagree with these theses that i hear now, which say that when men are not released, and deputies are traveling, men are not released because we have nothing to do, but because in we have a constitution, provisions on martial law, we have a law that prohibits leaving, that is, in this case it is within the framework of the law, we do not have it. the law that prohibits deputies from fulfilling their duties as deputies, so they are not released, and this is arbitrariness, men are not released because of martial law, these are completely different things, secondly, this logic about what should not be carried out, well, listen , this is the logic of a rapist, that's what you told me, and now

i have problems, well, there was no need to break the law, in this case it's like this abuser's logic, you know? who begins to reproach himself for exceeding his authority, violating the law, or in some other way doing it in a certain way . no, they are free in our country, there is a law on deputies, they have certain duties and powers, they were elected by the people, not by the party, not by volodymyr zelenskyi and not by snisar. so in this case they can go anywhere according to their authority of deputies, and when they are not released , well, in my opinion, why, why should it be justified, in which of our legislation is it written, let's not forget that any state service, any state official, must be guided by the law , and if the law does not allow it, then the official is

prohibited, and in this case, when we heard that... in our country in the 14th year , people went to moscow, well, listen, you know, we have people went to moscow because, because for some reason it was allowed, for example, in our country people went to the occupied territories, the same yevgeny balytsky, who now serves as the gaulleiter of the zaporizhia region, he went to the crimea, which he simply said, he did not even deny it, but for example, scandals, when there are scandals in germany, german deputies drive this is a scandal for the whole world, and ukrainian deputies do not go, well, this is a matter of our legislation, so in this case, i would not compare the munich security conference with the party of regions that went to moscow the day before war we have to say here on the other hand that in this case, indeed, one or another oppression of the opposition can be used as proof

that ukraine is not a democratic country, and then the question arises. why do it, why use undemocratic mechanisms, for what? i understand when, for example, within the ruling faction, the servant of the people, there are some bans on leaving, they have their own schedule, because they need votes to vote, but our opposition, why do they completely regulate the parliamentary activities of others people, again still, if the deputies go abroad not for work, but to relax somewhere, but ... well, we have excellent journalism, investigative journalism, and these people will obviously not be re-elected, let the people of ukraine decide what a deputy looks like, for whom... they voted and, but well , we are talking now, you know, like little children, what they did to you, maybe not wrong, but how bad you are, you complained, well, this is a

strange story in my opinion, well, in the end, if you don't release it, well, not only there poroshenko, there, for example, and women were also not released from the opposition, but you don't release any deputies, then the lists of those deputies who simply did not visit ukraine all this time will be made public, well, there are some, huh? they continue to be deputies, by the way, and this is very strange against the background of the fact that the opposition is not allowed to go somewhere to the conference. let's close this topic, and let's talk about what got everyone so excited this week, it's actually the talk about the fact that gur made a statement that there is a danger of some internal subversive actions, they even found such a name for them as maidan 3, well, actually, in addition to what they said about it there in a written statement, they also... yusov described this in more detail in his speech, let's listen it's synchronicity. every time we

hear such narratives, which shake our country in the middle, in the middle, which delegitimize the making of state decisions, well, accordingly, we will understand for whom these narratives work, there are lists of people on whom the enemy works and there are tasks engage them for spread. of his rhetoric and influence on the socio-political situation in the country, often this is done indirectly, and this is how such lists are known, the fact that a person's last name is on the list does not mean that he is a traitor, but he can be the object of development and the interest of enemy special services. well, actually, oleksiy , let's start again with you, well , it was still disturbing, and to a certain extent, maybe even not only what... was said, but also the form of presentation of this entire message, and here's how separate the form from the content what is happening, here is where there is a real

threat, and where is just some kind of rhetoric, here is just a very organic combination of form and content, you know, this is typical for special services in general, which means that the lists have not yet been agreed, they are probably in the stage of agreement, they then. let's call these names, but just in case, don't allow yourself too much, because you can end up on this list, and, you see, it's not, you're not agents, you might just be used, but if you do everything wrong, as needed, then then we will tell about this, separately, and again, here the question is not about the current government or the previous government, or the previous government, the special services always, unfortunately, always work here, and this is just... evidence of that , that, on the one hand, they are, of course, honored and respected when they work to protect the country, but on the other hand, well, sometimes one often

gets the impression that it is like in a joke, i would rather be at home, that is, we and we protect the country and state interests, but at the same time we protect the interests of specific people in power, this combination actually works to shake up the inner situation more than any other. is there a plan for maidan 3 or shotun, as it was until recently, that is, there is already a question about the responsibility of representatives of the special services who allow themselves such, well, serhiy, please, well, from your impressions, again, and even donetsk ones, as far as such plans, whatever what shake-ups can there be, well, that is , how realistic can this threat be in general from your point of view, well, first of all, there are plans, most likely, because... i monitor russian media and see russian political technologists, who wrote a long time ago at the beginning of the year that what it will be, so to speak, but of course not calling it maidan-3 and so

on. secondly, to what extent those plans , let's say, are correctly presented and designed by our gur, i am not sure, because in this case i agree with my colleagues that, well, excuse me, the gur is now becoming an instrument of internal politics in our country , because... there is someone, yes, who is in these plans in ukraine, but we do not name them, that is, anyone who will speak now, ah, so to speak, no, in perspective, which is beneficial to the authorities, may in fact be a declared figure in these plans, so to speak, and accordingly, an agent of the russian federation, if not a direct agent, then an agent of influence, at least, yes, and, therefore, it is certainly strange. well, although my colleague already mentioned that there was already a connecting rod, yes, we remember, that is, there is nothing strange in this practice, but we would certainly like to get rid of it, first of all, if we are moving somewhere, yes

to... those of europe, and secondly, i am surprised not that the authorities react to this plan, but that the authorities actually do nothing to to get rid of the problem on which the russians are building this plan, that is, the problem of legitimacy, it will stand, it objectively exists, and something must be done to solve it so that, i am not talking about the elections, by the way, i am not a supporter of elections during the military... state, it is simply impossible, but there is a problem, it must be solved not simply in order to prevent the muscovites from implementing some of their plans, because we, well, in ukraine also have issues, they will, and this objectively, these people are so arranged, yes, to ask questions, that's why i'm in the place of power, power, i would, well, i don't know, maybe we should think about a referendum, yes, about trusting the acting president

in order not to hold elections and not... there was a question of legitimacy, maybe we should think, although i know that there was already an appeal to the constitutional court, yes , in this sense, but in any case , the problem must be solved, and not, so to speak, those comments , or those commentators who will comment on it are not beneficial for ukraine, well, larisa, please look, you too.. i watched such plans in the crimea when i was in the 14th and 13th years, and it is obvious that i i absolutely agree with serhii that there are such plans, maybe they are called differently, but the authorities made such a statement that there is such a plan, and from your point of view as a psychologist, what effect did it have as a result statements on ukrainian internal life, that is

, what they achieved, that they... made it public, the fact is that when we all observed similar plans to destabilize the situation, yes, that is, to stir up the masses to some thesis, what in crimea, what in donbas , what serhii mentioned, there was always some thesis launched there, in crimea, this is the law about the russian language, which means that violent ukrainization, donetsk and luhansk had their own theses. who were also connected, they say that the banderites will come, four buses arrived with the banderites, they will now kill, all this was, but what is the point, all these theses that were launched were launched in order to agitate the masses, and under the guise of these agitated masses, sabotage, seizure of power, destabilization of local authorities, seizure of administrative buildings and all that, this very plan, as they called

it... great, russia will tell that president volodymyr zelenskyi is illegitimate , and some russian agents, even those who do not know that they are agents, will tell this, so the uprising of the masses is generally foreseen here within the framework of the plan that the gur here tells us, who will rebel, so i want to ask, but in crimea it is clear who was there, russian saboteurs were brought in and all this mass was russian, it was clear who was pretending to be in donbas. that they are our boys and they rebelled, girkhin and zhesnimi, who should rebel here? when gur tells us that they are opposing some sort of maidan 3 plan, that is popular disturbances, popular masses, overthrow of the government, destabilization of the situation in the country, the fact that they will now be on some, some lists to look for people who say something, no, wait, it's more like censorship.

because even if you say that a person works in information for the kremlin, you have to show the curators, the money, the secretaries, if you say that these people are preparing, for example, to bring out some groups there that are supposed to imitate this maidan 3, well these there must be groups somewhere, well, these provocateurs, who here and now huddle in the crowd and they will, which means that the kremlin needs to do something like that, maidan-three needs to do. where are these people, where are their names, well, that is, in this case it looks absolutely strange, and even i do not agree that this is similar to the plan of the connecting rod, which we were told there, because we were told by the connecting rod that the essence of all these narratives is in order to shake the unity of ukrainian society, he was there, no one there predicted the agitation of the masses.