beacons from the past, the light they send forward into the future, captures these heroes, these outstanding figures of the past, but makes them part of living life, living discussion, society, scholars, because if it doesn't, well, we'll have beautiful tomes and dead memorials , which simply no one will go to, we need to come up with how to make it legal, to connect, in fact, this bar that the heroes set for us, and in this sense, and i want to continue your opinion about... , actually about the neglect of the graves, let's say, that's what you said about lesya, there are many other graves of ukrainian writers, yes, repressed writers, historical figures who are now in a very neglected state, i had a discussion with my polish colleagues, we were arguing about some historical facts, and my a polish colleague said, you just go and look at ... lustus, in

what form you have the grave of your national genius, and then, actually, i started thinking about who should take care of the actual graves, yes, if there are no families there everyone is there, yes or no, or as in the case of lesya ukrainka, there is no one, it is the institute of national remembrance, it is some kind of city services, how should it work? legally, it now looks like this: if there is a cemetery such as baikovu, which has a special status there, then the relevant services of this cemetery are municipal, by the way, it belongs to the city of kyiv, they are obliged to take care of it, but it is one thing to take care of it in the sense of a couple once a year with an old-school silver coin , update the inscription like this, and another thing is to fundraise, launch a public discussion in the process of attracting attention, for example, we

met with representatives of the kyiv city state administration and the ministry of culture proactively, because there is an initiative person, mariana toman from the ministry of culture, this topic is very painful for me since the time when we initiated the change there inscription on and it's good that hanna starostenko from the kmda agreed, well, we treated it well, and now we've even found several patrons there from volyn who are ready to finance the project, because you can't just come there to do beautifully, you have to make a project, it has to pass the examination. and this is an example of caring at the prom level, but it did not arise because there is some big government program, but it is caring citizens who use their duty as public servants to do good deeds, so in essence this is what hlibovytskyi calls mastery own state, yes, actually, when we, it does not become something alien, but becomes the norm, because that is what you should do, you should own your state and use it for the common good of all members accordingly, this is such an option, but

in a good way, it should be civic business initiatives that show an example, so we take care of this grave, ideally in general, it should be a state register, something like a national program for the care of memorial sites yati, the final resting places of the most important figures in the history of ukraine, and this list should be formed and looked after, it seems to me that there is such a term nowadays. legislation, people with special merits before the state, they have there, they have a whole procedure of free burial, the creation of some kind of memorial there , but it should be, you know, no longer about party, new parties, new, high-ranking officials there, but specifically about such people of the stus level, well, with all due respect, none of them are representatives of the highest states, well, the highest officials of independent ukraine, well, with the rare exception of some super cool dissidents who did. for these founders

of this republic, well, it does not reach the level of a shock, accordingly, the grave has a shock here or there in mykolaychuk, it will be such that it is visible , accordingly, it should have been a state grave program, but i assure you, as soon as we sew, for example, such a program from ourselves, the ministry of finance will tell us that additional state budget expenditures are not foreseen bye-bye, and it must be political will, it must be fundamental, because it must, for example, like our war on the information front, for example, i often argue about the show. he says: there is no war in the field of culture, it is not that there is no front, but an information front, i do not agree here, there is an information front and a front in the field of culture, because there are top platforms where we can win in the field of culture, and this is a war in the field of culture, we have had a war in russia for a long time, the same in information, and for example, every year we need to have a few million dollars in the budget for translations of such books as the one by larisa yakubova, which examines this anatomy of racism, or olena styashkina or. the same snyder

's translations into other languages ​​besides english are there into chinese, indian, and so on, i.e. hindi, and we must have it, because if not us, no one will do it, accordingly, this is a specific program, specific. money, it's not that much money, it would be so little to be, but the society should come to its deputies, which elections to wear them for a jacket, you submitted, you submitted this item to the state budget, or the institute of our memory asked why you did not support it, why were you nervous at the committee wearing a jacket , until you knock out this point, but the majority of citizens are busy with other issues, other deputies are busy, and the deputies are busy with other issues, we have to occupy this state at last, use it for the good of this same state, and in terms of political will, political class and... and as to why we, as citizens, do not take the political class by the coattails and say, did you do it? i remember the speech of svitlana aleksievich , when she received the nobel prize, she came here, met in, i think it was in mohylianka, with students, and she then

said something like that, post-genocide nations, they, she, she said that we it is very easy to step over our fallen, due to the fact that... how many were there, yes, how many millions of them were we used to, she was talking about the soviet people, yes, but now i am asking you about the post-genocide nation ukrainians, isn't that why we don't abuse our politicians, and why, and why, isn't that why we go about our business, because we are a post-genocide nation, or is it somehow related to the fact that we don't honor heroes enough, i think there are at least three reasons, or maybe better specialists? than i can name more. the first reason is that it is possible for us to realize how many such graves there are. that is, even approaching this topic, not in the sense that we are used to transgressing, or we begin to understand that as soon as we touch this box, more, more, will appear. more, and in the end we will have to realize

how many such people lie all over the space of modern ukraine and the soviet union, i.e., this is a certain system of warning of fear. the second must still be given, well , it must be admitted that the 90s were a very difficult time in economic terms, when people really survived, well, that is, families, good families, which should first of all become the conscience of this nation, well, they were forced to sell trousers in stadiums in order to survive, and accordingly, you have three children on your back there and the situation is such that there is no salary for three months and they do not pay wages for five months, and at this time you simply cannot. psychologically, it is difficult for you to go and tell someone something about someone's graves , if your children are not fed, this is the second reason, well, the third reason, this helplessness that was cultivated by the soviet system, because it was trained on the fact that people did not interfere in these matters , she had

to do her own thing quietly, that is , the space of civil responsibility of a soviet person had to end at her door, the door of her maxim apartment, well, and a foreign state... but we could not master a foreign state, it even sounds abstract, the entrance is foreign, so there is always no care, and only now, when we gradually created osb, created some forms, when we built relations with the private sector in a slightly different way property, we began to expand a little, then together with our neighbors we cleaned the entrance, then we began to plant flowers around apartment buildings, then decentralization, we began to feel the community there, for example , go to the foothills, feel how the community works. there, well, besides the fact that there is a beautiful head, who is working on it, but is building up little by little, you understand, this is mine, this is ours, this is common, and accordingly, until this happened, these are some other people's graves, someone else's family, and since i have a border, a door, a border of a safe space, maybe i know for sure that i can

influence and i will not get anything for it, these are my doors, my apartments, and sometimes it is not always, then it is not so, that is, these three factors definitely influenced, and understanding it, working with it, changing it little by little concrete examples that the state should encourage, it cannot do everything, the state never can, never in any state the state will not have enough money for this, but it should set an example, say: do it like this, i bless it, i support it, but it will not do it, a closed circle, until we, as citizens, start demanding it, representatives of the state authorities , it's us, it's the same, like me , for example, in 2019 i wasn't a representative of the government, i went to this competition on my own and got into this system, and i understand, but this is the right way. i'm going to cross myself, i'm going to resign, someone else should come next to say: yes, friends, not on myself, not on my bunch of people there, my community or my family , i will do something there, on all of us, that is , work for all of us, this is the only way we will master this state, change this approach, and finally

we will have this list of places of memory for which we are all responsible together, and each of us in principle, thank you, now we will, as promised, talk about our own... ukrainian arlington about why the discussion, search place, adoption of the law on the national memorial. is it a cemetery? the cemetery where we now bury our soldiers. in the 22nd year, a bill was passed on the creation of this national memorial military cemetery. why is it so difficult, this decision is made and takes a long time? so, i will start with the background so that nothing is left out, because it is important for the logic of understanding. the project of the cemetery arose, the very first project arose from the time of yanukovych, some... almost old generals gathered, i want to see the year 2011, i remember it by azarov,

maybe because somewhere in russia they built of the military, and these old , well-deserved, well-deserved veterans , including soviet ones, of these systems also wanted to have a good place for themselves, but the project did not take off, thank god, but then the government issued an order in the 15th or 16th forgot to develop the institute of national memory in particular, the institute of national memory back then... in the 16th or 17th i developed this project, there were consultations, the project of the military memorial cemetery and in general the same logic with which i started , this is three-phase, it arose in the institute, that is just the 15th-16th. and in the very first consultations with the state geocadastre, a specific plot of land for this cemetery arose, because a state land was needed and b- a lot of state land, several hundred hectares, because everyone understood that it should be arlington, it is 300 + hectares, and that it can't be some... wheelbarrow somewhere on the wasteland in kyiv, it must be fundamental, it is a space of memory for centuries, at the time no one thought about

a full-scale war, but even then they thought that it must be such a cemetery, and accordingly, the only suitable site was, then they talked about hello post office, but now this is the gatnia community, and even then this plot, which is finally approved now, was offered and the institute itself offered it even then, near the southern cemetery, it is right next to the southern cemetery, which is a plus, because and the road to odessa, a large highway that allows many people to conveniently drive up to it, b) there is already a cemetery nearby, accordingly, there are sanitary facilities, the sanitary zone is respected, and plus there is a wooded area there, but there are illegal fellings due to decades of this kind of management, there are huge produced massifs, and accordingly it will even be affected, well, that is, the forest, this forest plantation will be affected almost no less than in some other place, well, arlington, if we look at this space interspersed with trees, accordingly , this is how it arose. then in the 22nd , then the institute developed a law on cemeteries together with the ministry of defense, the ministry of defense, and for years i

got to visit all these problem groups, pavlo podabek, who was responsible for this at our institute, simply did not get out of the committees, from the ministry of defense, they agreed on one thing one of the principle points was not to hide there kgbists, all kinds of knights of the order of lenin and so on, and it was with a lot of blood, but we managed to agree on everything so that it was, well, really people who fought for independence for ukraine, and we... after all, this is an election, it has to to be a state cemetery with a memorial , with appropriate infrastructure and so on, and the law is adopted, and unfortunately, the law was adopted only in the 22nd, already after the start of a full-scale war, but the struggle itself, the struggle itself for this law stretched for years, for years, i think, if it were not for the war, we would still be behind this law was studied, again some accountants, who are always present in any government, say it is expensive, it is billions, well, it is billions, respectively, the 22nd year for the place, and this is where it started, i call this is a vekhanalia, ideas began to flow, because

the law does not fix the place, the law of the 22nd fixes the cemetery, does not fix the place, and here they begin, let 's build on the bald mountain, let's build in the lady's ravine, let's sing in the field, and we're just us at the institute looked at all this with such eyes, we did not have time to comment, that it's simple, first read the law, there is a list of objects such that there is a need for space, accordingly, all these proposals, and the families of the victims hear. this story and think that it would really be good in the center, in the center of kyiv, but then they start to face questions, elementary questions, if we know somewhere in the center of kyiv 100 + hectares for such a center, no, because there is no such center in the center of kyiv 100 + hectares, and if we take some of those locations and one of these, i consider provocative ideas, it was to make this cemetery in the side yard, and it was probably the last goods. because many families are very strongly in this , for this, for this location, they took the side of the

side of the families of the fallen, and why? and because they were told that it is almost, almost in kyiv, that there is a lot of space, but they were not told one very important thing, that this is a place of memory, already in which, unfortunately, in this forest, most likely with a very high probability, there will be mass burials during stalin's repressions, and this is where one more trigger... the trigger that most of our people are not aware of and do not realize this problem, that is, even some high-ranking officials, i come, i remember very well, i talk to the architect, and the architect says: i tell them... i ask, so let's build this one, well, they say to him, build it in the side room, he says, well, this is the same place , well, it may be risky there, there is also, well, if we find a mass grave, we will stop this construction, we have to exhume it, do it, and they say to him , no, let's come up with something, he says okay, let's do it, why not in a woman's ravine, he is so no-no, well, you can't in a woman's ravine, it's a place of memory, that is, a bullpen even at the level of people it was not fixed as such a place of memory

where one cannot touch, and accordingly it was a serious story. of such miscommunication, and people were provoked , a family comes to us, we say, look, we initially proposed, vytrovych also proposed in gatno he does it, well, and then it all went into the space of political speculation, because part of the parliament, and they introduced a draft law for the bullpen, the bullpen, and the council voted, but the president did not sign it, and they call me to tell me in more detail, they call me from the president's office and ask, and i am at the front, we in general, the journey is worth it. in zaporizhzhia , i could pick up the phone, because we have a starling, i pick up the phone, i say, i can’t speak now, we are leaving here on combat duty, the president calls and asks what the problem is with the bullring, because part of the law came, and part of the experts says that there are caveats, ask the institute of national memory, they will tell me , and i will tell you, well, here you are, i will show you five or six points that are risky, and they

, well, the president says, well, that is correct, and what is it previously not taken into account, a logical question, and output that he voted in the parliament, and he , as a person who understands that this will be a disaster, that we can be stuck there for another five years or however long, and then the issue of changing the place to place for this cemetery will be initiated, return to the good, which we immediately proposed, and well, thank god, the parliament votes in favor of this area, which is in support of the government's decision in favor, but what struck me is that more than 300 deputies will support it, we personally got involved with the minister of agriculture got involved, because this issue land there is an allocation of land and we they went to the factions and explained, and practically all the deputies voted, except for some, except for one faction, because it became part of the political such a bad situation, because some of the deputies said that the president does not respect the parliament, that he does not want to sign the bullpen, they believe that he , that the president did not sign the draft law

that was initiated by the opposition political force, that he said yes, no, that he said. the president does not respect the parliament, because he should have signed the bullpen, because the parliament first voted for him, only then can there canceled, revoted, and it became a very ugly political situation, and well, we went around these factions, they said, well, come on , you will not bring this issue into the plan , well, if there should always be an opposition with the government, but i say, come on, you you won't, and most of the opposition forces, well, a large part of them agreed and didn't start discussing it, well, in such an ugly way and about'. voted for gatne, well, some did not, well , again, i didn’t vote against it, in my opinion, people abstained, but , you know, this is a case that says that we very often we cannot cross because of political ambitions, even in such very important matters, the prime minister gave an engagement to build the first sector, the first sector in six months of this 24th year, and now there are many questions to, i

see that you have just recently participated in the discussion of design, their additions, and in general now there are many questions and discussions about how it should look, what it will be like in terms of architecture and design, what kind of space it will be, can you tell in a few words what the very idea of ​​this great the space of the space of the memorial cemetery, so the law provides that it must be a large object, in which sense it is large, there must... be a museum that tells about the history of soldiers in general, a place that is very consistent with that memorial, about which you ask at the beginning of the museum, which will tell about what kind of wars ukraine fought in which times, and how and why this particular place of memory represents various fighters for the actual freedom of ukraine, including her, of course, this is a big part of this museum will be dedicated to modern warfare,

because, unfortunately, this is the majority of burial places, although initially it was not... expected, but of course it will be for those people who died, or later after the victory will live peacefully and die and have the right to be buried in this cemetery, then accordingly a museum that will tell , then there should be a memorial, a memorial, a large national memorial, which actually honors all those who died and who fought, it is such a simple memorial place, then there should be a large crematorium, because we do not have enough crematoriums, a city crematorium , well, in kyiv it cannot withstand the load. this infrastructure is old, these are generally old technologies, they need to be restored, accordingly, this crematorium will also first serve this cemetery itself, plus it will help with this infrastructure. further, it is assumed that there will be large spaces for columbariums, and they will be, accordingly , modern, there will be a technical, administrative

building, an archive that will keep a list of those people, maybe even production workshops where they will be made, because the military memorial cemetery will be special, well, specific system, and by decree the cabin is regulated, which will not be there, you know how it often happens now, somewhere there is a boy with a guitar sitting in a...stand, and there is some motley obelisk somewhere, and there the head is half, well , actually, discussions are already beginning about the fact that some families says: no, we want to bury as we think, and the monument of the epitaph is the same, as they want, look, the military memorial burial site is a disciplinary space, clearly limited by the requirements, according to the best world models, brevity, standardization , any family is not obliged to hide in the military in terms of memorials, any family has... the choice of being buried in any cemetery in their community, in a military burial sector of their convenience, or in a military memorial cemetery. if at the military memorial cemetery

, that is, for example, if a person, for example, from simferopol, whose family son or daughter fought for the independence of ukraine, died, the person can choose to be buried at home , or at the cemetery in the sector, or at the military - memorial cemetery, there are pluses and minuses, the pluses are near the house, it's convenient and you can do anything you want on that grave, if. if you choose , it will be in the center of the country, in the very heart, and why is kyiv convenient, because it is more convenient to go there, because it is in the center of the country, but there is a minus, you will not be able to, for whom it is a minus, for whom it is a plus, you will not be able to go there do what you want, but on the other hand , it will be a beautiful space, like arlington, everyone likes arlington, but for some reason not everyone likes that you can't influence anything, okay, well, i choose, or caption, or i don't know , what, there are three options, i understand correctly, there are three options for detailed... tell me about what these options are? there are two options for scraps, now, and we insist on them, and the architect, and most of the people

who are on the round table, as far as i got the impression, also support it, roughly speaking, two options for heating, the first, which the family chooses, the first option , the main one is the cossack cross, actually the famous cossack cross, if we look at the tradition of burying soldiers in ukraine, then... the tradition of burying a soldier under a cossack cross for over 500 years is a very important tradition, and odesa, cherkasy region, kyiv region, ternopil region, vinnytsia region, find an old cemetery of 200-300 years old, there will be a cossack cross everywhere, and for us, for example, it is fundamental that the cossack cross should be the main memorial figure of the gravestone, the gravestone figure in this cemetery, because, well, no all countries have a history of 500 years, and we have a specific memorial tradition of warriors, burials. under the cossack cross, and for us, for example, it is extremely important to preserve this, that is, it is no longer a religious meaning, but simply a cultural meaning, yes, much more than about religion,

many people, well, atheists, well, or not very good, let’s say, not very orthodox christians, but they were still buried under cossack crosses, mocked very vakhtan boiled, an outstanding ukrainian historian and popularizer of history, he even in exile investigated st. bownbrook, one of the cemeteries where very... many soldiers of the ukrainian unrt armies are buried there, he says that even there, after examining more than 70 , about 70% of all crosses in america, no one free space, where there were none restrictions, all people chose the cossack cross over 70%. accordingly, this is the first form of memory, but there is also po and, but this cross is cut, first a flat plate is cut, and then from this plate. is baptized, but if for people who do not profess christianity, or for whom it is essential not to be buried under christ, there will not be a cross carved from this slab, it will simply be the same flat slab

that is similar in shape, and on it will be depicted or a religious symbol there, i don't know a crescent moon, a star of david, a buddhist symbol, i.e. of that religion, or simply the coat of arms of ukraine, if a person, for example, is an atheist in principle, and accordingly the entire cemetery will have two such variants of engraving. the person will choose himself, accordingly, no problem, ugh, someone says, it won’t be very nice, i disagree, this issue can also be resolved, since a cross is cut on the outline of the plate, they will be stylistically similar in principle, and secondly, even if it will be there, well, we need to model how it will look, even if it is possible to do it in sectors, this sector is only for drinking, and this sector is only crosses and there will be no problem, that is , we are solving this issue, it is important for us that we cannot abandon the memorial tradition, which is more than 500 years old, that's it. very important thing, it's the same as if you create a large national memorial cemetery, which should record the traditions of military victories and memorials and burials and forget the cossack ones,

well, it's just not. we literally have 30 seconds left, so you said that the work has already started and when we will have this space completed, well, that would be the best answer the ministry of veterans, because it's theirs, they have a state institution that deals with this, as far as i know, the work has started, there are already trips there, well , research has been carried out on the territory of geology, there is already a draft project, and there they are currently working on the documentation and preparing it. as far as i know, the site is being prepared for construction works, but it is better to ask the ministry of finance, it is theirs. anton, thank you for the conversation, anton drubovych, it was a conversation about how to remember, honor the memory of heroes, glory to ukraine, and glory to our heroes, thank you.

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