about our country's entry into the european union and about the basis on which we enter there purely economically. well, look, we are now, by and large, part of these problems is also the fact that we are essentially now in the regime of the european union, a country that is a member of the european union. but it's an advance, but it's an advance. and the advance is very strange for the simple reason that we do not, we do not have the problems that the eu countries have, but we have the opportunities that the eu countries have, we do not have the same green. oh, but this will all pass, we really have to clearly realize that when we become a member of the european union, we need such negotiations that would not create restrictions on the supply of our products to the european market for another 40 years, well, as some say in poland for 35 years, by the way, this was not an exaggeration, i just i heard that it will be necessary to limit the supply of agricultural products. these ukrainians have been on

the european market for 35 years, and why? and because we are two competitive countries with a very similar type of economy, both in ukraine and in poland agriculture is very developed, not in all countries of the european union, it is so developed, and our land is better, the conditions are better than in poland, in poland, agriculture is developed on very bad soil, well , everyone knows this, it is a christmas thing, wait , what will we get out of this war with, they will not be taken away, they will not be taken away we have chernozems, you understand? otherwise, you understand, because on such a land the polish are difficult. to work than in ukrainian,

well, i don't say about russian poets at all that it's easy to work there, i leaned back there, okay, but it's not called black soil, how to work there, ugh, well, so what all that remains is to flood the mountains with vodka and try to capture someone else's black earth, everything is absolutely classic, poland has better land than russia, but worse than ukraine, which means that this is competition, and this, this... and again, if we will offer restrictions, we must demand subsidies. it's very simple , subsidies that would compensate our industry, our agricultural sector for restrictions, probably years, not restrictions, but the losses from the introduction of restrictions, so it should be professional, tough negotiations, because if we talk, yes, yes, yes , do whatever you want, whatever you want, as long as we join

the european union sooner, we will simply lose the economy. the poles delayed joining the european union for a couple of years until they got these subsidies for agriculture. why do i want this? i am very afraid that the ukrainian society , with its willingness to vote for populists, will simply force any person who will be in power to, let's say, bring a result to the elections, here i am so-and -so, leading ukraine. to the european union, elect me for a second term in which conditions, well, what difference does it make to you on what conditions , we are in the european union, you wanted it, i did it , and if i resisted, it turned out that we are still in the process of negotiations, and you will not re-elect me, so it is better without agriculture, but with me as the president at the head of ukraine, i am not saying the reason for the president, he can already be history at this moment, i am saying, let's talk about myself, i am the president of ukraine at this moment, i need to be re-elected, and people say, that's how it will be...

there will be no union, and i have a choice to save agriculture, ugh, or save your presidency, what would you choose in my place? i would save agriculture , but i'm a romantic, but you're a romantic, that's right, and we're talking about the president, i'm not me , i think, i would probably also, er, save agriculture, but then i need a grant from the fortnikov fund after resignations are big, which i could do good things if i am not elected for a second term, not only for agrarians, but i also need a subsidy then. you see what a difficult situation it is, yes that if the parliament may not vote for such a fund, and i will have to sacrifice agriculture, so just kidding, but here i am showing you that if we are serious, if we approach this story with populism, we will lose everything, we will be in the european union , but we will be a poor country, unable to really be on equal terms in cooperation with the european union, tell me, what about with nato, by the way? the trailer is the same story

or joining nato here, any conditions, any principles, this is an umbrella, we need it here and now. nato does not, does not offer competitors of the competition, nato takes into account. strategic opportunities, that's why the nato countries were in such a state when they waited two years for sweden to communicate with the turkish and then with the hungarian claims, by the way, it must be said that everything is already next week in the end, i think there 5 , march 6, 7, the new president of hungary will sign the law on the accession of sweden to nato, ratified by the parliament, and that's it. this epoch will end, but what was the basis of the nato countries, primarily the united states, they believed that in this situation control over the baltic by sea, the ability of nato countries to fully control this space in the area of ​​gotl island, despite the fact that they had

relations with sweden, but not allies, is a huge contribution to the situation with the alliance, as well as with ukraine, if joining nato will be perceived as contribution to the common defense , then this is the answer to the question, well, it is absolutely obvious, and here no one competes with anyone, because nato does not give out money, as you understand, well, it gives out, well, it means the opposite, nato requires money, let’s quote classics immortal quotes by president trump who angela merkel said at the time, but 2% for defense is 2%, so the truth seems to be there, four in my opinion. for defense in the budget, which means that, unlike the european union, it is a nato club into which money must be brought, so that is another story, and i simply do not think that we will get there so easily, but you know, the world is changing so , that we can only

hope that it will be so, mr. vitaly, we have 10 minutes left, and a few words about what happened these days in russia, navalny was buried there, yes, it happened. it's traditional, as far as i'm concerned, for russians the escort of the russian special services, policemen , auto-sacs, there are several dozen people who were detained, but in the end the procession was quite large, it was not 1 thousand people, and this demonstrated that the slogan was not valid, for example, or putin is a murderer, or something else, what the regime does not like, does not lead. to the fact that everyone is packing, well, not everyone was packed, there is a certain number of people who were demonstratively arrested, but they came out to say goodbye and the disaster did not happen, it did not happen, maybe because it was not there was a mass protest, the government once again showed

that there are not many people in society who have a different view of events than it, well, how many people were there, well... well , there were 10-20 thousand people, well, there were so many different estimates , i also saw hundreds of thousands, but it seems to me that they are very optimistic, i think that there were no more than a few tens of thousands of people there, this is, you see, i would call it hybrid totalitarianism, ugh, that is, it exists, but here it is allows such things up to a certain point, we always do it... with the soviet union, and now we compare it with the stalinist soviet union times, but now the question arises, and with which soviet union of stalin's time? stalin's soviet union, stalin 's soviet was different until 1934, but it

was one soviet union, after the assassination of kirov, it was a completely different soviet union. in the soviet union, which was already headed by stalin, it was possible to hold. such alternative demonstrations in support of trotsky and against trotsky, the workers, not some bourgeois, but the workers of the potilovsk plant, ugh, held demonstrations in support of zinoev and his groups in the party, and it was the 1920s and the beginning of the 1930s, in 1936, the secretaries of the regional party committees in... had a plan for the number of people shot, this is a completely different story, because in 28 or 29 year, if you told the secretary of some bolshevik party committee, and you have to write a plan, how many people you will shoot this year, he would think that you are crazy, in the year 37 it

did not seem crazy, it seemed normal, and only 10 years have passed, and in russia 10 years have passed from the 14th to the 24th. you see how she has changed, imagine the next 10 years, it just doesn't happen in one day, so when we say, it passed... in the wake of navalny and nothing, then maybe it's not the emergence of an alternative, but a slow massacre of the alternative, because again, these people gathered for navalny's funeral, but remember, 10 years ago they did not go to the funeral, they gathered for demonstrations in support of navalny in the center of moscow, not on its outskirts, there were much more of them, and now they are afraid even at ... funeral to come you understand, and this is of course, i’m not saying anymore,

this whole story with the handing over of the body is shameful, with the fact that in fact they, we, yes, we learned about the causes of death, you can find out, look at who to trust, if our intelligence, then it’s a trump card , well, our intelligence, i won't even comment on it, i mean, it really happened. there was an examination of the body after a thrombus by a thrombus, well, which could be trusted, but the relatives did not insist on a second examination, they agreed that the person would at least be buried in exchange for the fact that they would not they will ask unnecessary questions, well, this is also important, no one asked this question at the funeral, as if the person had died. and she did not die, as the president of ukraine said, in order

to refute the statement of our chief military intelligence officer more officially, this person was killed, and i absolutely agree with the president of ukraine in this regard, so for me this is not the beginning of any development of events in russia , and for me it is precisely the confirmation that putin once again showed that he can... do anything he wants, and nothing will happen to him, because you see, navalny, let's say, was a symbol of much greater social harmony than the war with ukraine, but we said that russians, they do not oppose the war in ukraine en masse , there were no such actions in the second year of the 20th, at least in the 14th, also about a lot of things , do you remember what huge actions there were in the 14th year, they did not change anything, but we saw a huge number of people who... took to the streets in all russian cities, not only single pickets, where everyone these people, they

are scared, they left, they were disappointed in its capabilities, and now it is absolutely obvious that even the destruction of a person who was for many a symbol of some hopes, we are not saying now whether it was justified or not , but it was alexei navalny who was destined to become a symbol of these hopes for change, and these people are absolutely sincere i believe... that this could be the president of russia when, if the putin regime collapses, they saw him in this role, and everyone saw him in this role, i never understood why, for me it was a question of a religious nature, that people believe in it, but they are this is what they believed in, they associated their faith in change with this person, as by the way, once in the late 80s, early 90s, they associated their faith in change with the person of boris yeltsin, and well, that is, whether it is rational or irrational , that's another matter. it was a question of faith, and now this person was killed

in a terrible way in the colony, this person was imprisoned for absolutely nothing, everyone knows that too, it's just that, because she was slandered for the fact that she wanted to destroy the existence there, that is for these 19 years, a person who, by the way, everyone these slanders... uttered in court as a witness, yesterday she was at a funeral, and after this funeral she was detained, also surrealism, the truth is that the person behind the, according to whose testimony navalny was later given this actually death sentence, came to say goodbye to him and was detained by the moscow police, last name zelenskyi, operator of navalny, former fbk, yes. what coincidences, so they still arrested zelensky, you know, at least the other zelensky,

but at the funeral of navalny, because they value this symbolism, they needed to navalny was buried to arrest zelensky , all the problems are solved, and this also says a lot, so in this regard, and what i wanted to emphasize, that this... also did not lead to any mass disturbances, a question arises , what else does putin have to do in russia to cause mass unrest, this is actually an experiment, because nothing else that... could stir up a huge number of people exists, the war is already there, the death of the most popular opposition leader is already there , what should i do, eat children 10 years for breakfast, well, they will say that volodymyr volodymyrovych should eat something, he knows better, so we are talking about this,

in fact we are talking about a tamed society, this is the decade. it was a decade, everyone could think why he started it with ukraine, from 14 to 24, it is a decade of tamed society, the transformation of an authoritarian country, this controlled democracy, remember, we said that, which was absolutely disgusting, but when it was possible to live in a totalitarian state, under which it is impossible to live, it is disgusting, low, vile, inhumane, but they live and can no longer do anything about it, in the 14th year they still could. the possibilities of change have not been used, and now there are no changes in totalitarianism, changes in totalitarianism - only the death of the peasant and some cataclysms that have not yet been observed. thank you khrystyna for this conversation, thank you very much, vitaly portnikov, and the saturday political club that will return to you is easy to guess. see you next saturday, stay with us.

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in september saturday 17:10, sunday 18:15 at espresso. greetings, good evening, my name is myroslava barchuk, this is a self-titled program, a joint project of the ukrainian pen club and the espresso tv channel. today we will talk about how we should remember the culture, the act of commemoration of the fallen heroes. here is schopenhauer's well-known opinion that a nation consists not of living citizens, but of dead heroes. i think that's a very profound point to remember, to take into account, and in this context it's very important how we honor those who ask for... this moral and ethical bar. today my guest, my guest is anton drobovich, director of the institute of national remembrance and a military man. anton, congratulations, my

respect, good evening. we will talk separately about the military cemetery, later, yes, which for some reason took so long and in agony to have its idea, and for some reason took so long to materialize, yes, where the dead soldiers are buried now, but i will start with something else. question, and i will start with the question about the general memorial, the place of commemoration of our heroes, yes, let's call it a memorial or a pantheon, there is no difference, why in 30 years, we have not had such a place to honor the heroes of various battles and various times, instead we have a park of glory in the center of the city, which became a place of such... tributes and a place of soviet communist sabbaths? well, there are several reasons here, first of all, because if we talk like this, about the duration of our own

ukrainian statehood, where ukrainians really are the full owners of the process, so to speak, it is not a soviet pseudo-republic there, although it was supposedly sovereign under the constitution, but we all understand what it was simply a colony of moscow, or dependent. territory from moscow, then in fact 30 years for the state is not so much, accordingly a nation that is trying to master this, itself, its symbolic space, it needs time to build such a memorial, that is, speaking of such comparable , but on the other hand, many ukrainians, in particular intellectuals already in the 19th century felt that the ukrainian nation is a community that is traveling to itself for a very long time, and in part... of society in the political class could the idea and persistence to create such a memorial object arose even in the 90s , but we see that it did not become

a strong political thesis in the 90s and 2000s, but if we talk about places of memory, some places of memory, in particular , near the parliamentary library, there is a small memorial built by the city, by the way , dedicated to the revolution . but simply the heavenly hundred and in general the memorialization of the heavenly hundred and in some sense became this place and this space memory that is awakened by this question that you are talking about: where is our great memorial, where is our pantheon, so to speak, but from a conceptual point of view , only the institute of national memory justified this idea somewhere after 2015 expert groups, and the cabinet of ministers approved the organizing committee and... and even we prepared it under volodymyr vytrovich, it started and

was already completed under me. which, for example, now the largest two most authoritative places are where now the arch of freedom of ukraine was renamed the former arch of friendship of peoples, this is the first. as one of the most likely locations, and the second location, we talked with the director of the lavra reserve, with mr. ostapenko, and near the lavra there is an ancient kyiv locus, solyana hirka, where this famous bishop pavlo of the moscow patriarchate built mercedes, and pasha mercedes built . some illegal buildings, and this locus is also considered as one of the possible locations for the construction of such a national pantheon, but so far, well, the government

has not accepted and reviewed for several months, several years , well, i understand that the war is now the draft concept of this pantheon, because the logic was like this, which means a three-level system of remembrance, sectors of military burials in all there were more than four hundred of them in the 15th and 16th years. that is, in all cemeteries there is a sector of military burials, this is the first level, the second level is the national military memorial cemetery, then near kyiv there is a large space, about which we will talk about further, and the third level is the national pantheon, a certain symbolic point in the center, i.e. this is the logic, this is the architecture of this system of memory, it was proposed by the institute, it seems quite logical to me in principle, it is of course somewhat classicistic, it this is more classical, but given that we do not have such an infrastructure. so it's very good all kinds of innovative things because now we actually have to build what you're talking about and it's a classic for the nation but in general the world trends that we're coming into a new culture

memories, that's how we need to... complete this gestalt of the old, classical one and continue not to hinder the creation of new memorials, for example, the cross of heroes memorial was recently opened, in the gcc it was actually practiced in vyshgorod, this is an example of such a modern memorial, and i have already said about glory park , which is located in the center of the city, in the center of kyiv, yes, by the way, not far from the lavra, not far from the museum of the future museum... to the sea, ah, not far from this stele, which is now there , and this place, this park itself slavy was built back in 1957, and some soviet soldiers are buried there, some ukrainians, some non-ukrainians, it seems that there are 24 graves there, yes, the fact is that there is, there is eternal fire, and this place, because of that, that

it was not, it was rethought, it became the place where on may 9 such soviet communist pro-russian rallies were held, you remember how people went from arsenal square, there under red symbols, under soviet symbols, eh, and here i am all the time , what i think about, anton, i think all the time, looking at this place, about how, what it is like a place in the center of warsaw, a place of commemoration of the heroes of various wars and... different eras, this place is on pilsudski square in the center of warsaw, under the colonnade of the saxon palace there is a grave of an unknown soldier, and it is written there: here lies a polish soldier who died for the motherland . the idea is to honor all those who died for poland. there are 18 shields with

the names of various battles decisive for poland, and there are urns, 24 urns from the 24 battlefields of the second world war, and the eternal fire, the guard of honor and so on. volodymyr zelenskyi was there, he bowed to the memory, actually unknown soldier. my question is so long with a long lead to you, why couldn’t we bury in our park, the kyiv park of glory, bury a lot of our soldiers from various battlefields and make it a pantheon, it seems to me that it was the best place to remember 'yati, and the place is a symbolic sign of commemoration of the unknown ukrainian soldier. i would just like to note that the pantheon, at least in the concept that is currently being discussed, is not only a military pantheon, because the ukrainian community, the ukrainian nation, as well as the ukrainian space, produces not only military glory

, illustrious...artists, scientists, creators, they are now seriously discussing the topic, so that the pantheon reflects these different stages of progress, and these were the great princes of the past, hetmans, writers, that is, people, representatives of various groups , and there is something in this, it does not mean that we do not need to have a separate war memorial, proper, because the war memorial in the capital and the war memorial code, these are two different memorial objects with two different functions, that's why... it just such a trailer, now why didn't we do this, this is a problematic question, why, because it shows, in particular, our attitude as a community to the memory of the second world war, because the russian narrative, all these paper-carriers, they tried to instrumentalize the place monuments of memory about the second world war, how to stop it, if it is the russian world, the soviet space, and so on, and they did not succeed to the end, for example, the museum of the second ukraine in the second

world war, they tried very... to create such a soviet space from it symbol, but they did not succeed, that is , the museum itself was abandoned, and the scientists themselves were abandoned , and there was opposition to the place, so on the one hand , in the 90s and 2000s, no one would even think about it, because it was not a problematized memory about the second world war, after the 2000s, even after the adoption of the anti-communist decommunization laws in 2015, if you look carefully, in the package with the decommunization laws there was a package... the law on perpetuating the memory of defeating nazism in the second world war, and this law is a painting of all of the parties of the parliament at that time in the fact that they do not touch the memory of the second world war, do not affect it, that is, a conscious compromise, the hall votes for decommunization, not ukrainian culture, so to speak, does not touch the topic.