soviet space and so on, and they did not succeed to the end, for example, the museum of the second ukraine in the second world war, they tried very hard to create a space of such a soviet symbol from it, but they did not succeed, that is, the museum itself both she and the scientists vouched for each other, and there was opposition to the place, so on the one hand, no one would have even thought about the 90s-2000s, because it was not a problematized memory of the second world war, after the 2000s, even after being accepted into ... 2015 anti-communism of decommunization laws, if look carefully, in the package with decommunization laws there was a package, there was a law on the perpetuation of the memory of defeating nazism in the second world war, and this law is a painting of all parties of the parliament at that time in that they do not touch the memory of the second world war, do not affect, that is, a conscious compromise, the hall votes for decommunization, it is not ukrainian culture, so to speak, it does not touch the topic. of the second world war in

a critical sense, well, in the sense of reinterpretation, because the ancient greek krine is a weighing, yes, that is, it does not weigh, thus from one on the one hand, the decommunization legislation started this process of eradicating the soviet, but on the other hand, they put a taboo on touching the topic of the second world war, that is, they were not afraid , they could not, they bargained, this is the second question, that is, this topic of the second world war and a serious rethinking, it is for the russians it was fundamental, because it is part of the scrap. ugh, for a part of society, this discourse never took place in the 90s, it turned out, well, everyone understands that this is an important memory, because we lost from 8 to 10 million people in the second world war, this is a never-disappearing topic for us, but how to withdraw, how to touch the overgrowth, if even the political leadership, the top president, the parliament could not touch this topic, and they never touched a full-scale war, already only with the acceptance laws on the submission of imperial succession, these safeguards were effectively removed, and now we are in earnest. we can

talk about it, but no one touched it, not even the most great and bright patriots, who alone tried, in particular, the institute of national memory, tried to raise this, but at the highest level it was all extinguished, well , i remember that viktor yushchenko dared to touch on this, he even speaking near this very museum, like the second world war, he once invited soviet veterans and upa soldiers, he said that all people. .. those who fought in the second world war for the independence of ukraine are our heroes , we honor them, and you remember what a ruckus there was then, how people did not perceive, that is , society was not ready, not only the political class, society, well, and now we ready, what hindered us after the 15th, 14th year to do this, it seems that this sacredness has fallen, this madness has fallen, but we have already had 10 years of war, now what is stopping us from doing it, let's say there... sacredness has not

fallen, i say, laws, decommunization laws are 2015, they record the inviolability of this topic, look at how the architecture of this law looks like, that except for the places associated with the memory of the second world war, except for the monuments of the second world war, everything is excluded there, that is, this space was as if put on pause, well, don't throw it away, i 'm not saying that nobody should throw it away in slavi park graves, you don't need to bury that... it has ceased to be only a symbolic soviet memorial, look to change, that is, what does a healthy process of commemoration look like - work with complex memory, we are launching a public discussion, scientists, society , a civil institution of civil society with the support of the state, it has been going on there for several years, maybe five years, yes, that is, i will understand how, for example, questions arose that the memorial, a series of memorials, should be changed.

the name is not, for example, not 4145, but 3945 and so further, this is an idea being launched, the state should support this discourse, not impose a ban, yes, roughly speaking, monuments are not touched at all, they are untouched, but says that it is necessary to rethink on a fixed- at the political level, and this was not done , accordingly, the first part is a public expert discussion, the second part the state accepts the results of the public expert discussion, the third part the state supports key objects, begins to... finance and show examples further on the ground already local self-government bodies memorials, this is what it should look like, each of these stages can take several years, it was never launched in 2015, and i can say for sure that on the 19th-20th we launched this discourse about the submission of the imperial legacy , which is called decolonization, and at the legal level they began to promote it, and here

the academic environment, the civil society, reacted to our, so to speak irritant, our request, the state, so this issue is now easier already after the start of the war, so if this process is not in itself it will not happen, leadership is needed here, because it cannot, for example, let's imagine. a person, an engineer, a biology teacher, or a salesman or a saleswoman or a professor there , i do not know medicine, they live their normal lives, no one thinks about what is there in the arsenal with the memorial, they know that the second world war is there, somehow it is connected with grandfathers and everything, grandfathers, grandmothers who fought, if someone does not initiate this discussion, does not ask a valid question, why not rebury other heroes there, they are like that, well, yes, this is a good story, but this voice the one who raises this question should be... the voice of the state, so that people are serious about it, this was never done until, roughly speaking, the 20th year, somewhere in the 22nd, when the threat of russia was already hanging in the air, and even before the symbolic spaces, the last question i will ask before talking about the military

memorial complex is fairy tale, but for me a fairy tale cemetery, a fairy tale cemetery - this is the principle of such value schizophrenia, right? generals, that is, it just sounds, well, like some kind of absurdity and sur, yes, when opposite the grave of mykolaichuk, very modest, rises such a snow-white marble figure of the executor, the executor of the executor of the murder of gong. that is, what to do with it, when it is the central, central cemetery, and on the central alley, in fact the entire central alley and all the most prestigious places, they are occupied, if not by kagabi generals and secretaries of the central committee

of the communist party of ukraine, then, with all due respect, by football players now and now it's a completely different kind of value trend, so now it's football players and some people's deputies of the party of regions. and so on, what to do about it? well, in such cases , the best way is because the issue of places of memory and burial places in general is even more complex and delicate from the point of view of legislation than even places of memory, the best way is a special program or efforts of the state to strengthen these loci connected with, for example, we are currently discussing the restoration of lesya ukrainka's grave, the same baikov bike center, well, he. not in proper condition, as for the level of such and such a person for our society, accordingly, if the state, for example, changes, makes the restoration of the alleys, will highlight , i.e. illuminate, modernize, put appropriate memorials there to hrushevsky, lesa and other figures, it will be this gesture that will change

this symbolic space, but it is not only a good wish, it is a political understanding of this process, b) leadership , so that, for example, during the war, we will allocate a certain amount for this. funds from the budget, because no one, well there, or plus the budget plus the patron, that is, it is a political responsibility to say that it will be so, because it is right, and the third story is to allocate these funds, for years, in the 90s, 2000s , and 10s, everyone was just talking about the fact that culture is important, even now many people will say that culture is important, it is a strategic area, but as soon as it comes to budgetary allocations, so that simply no i say that everything should be changed, but it should be shown, the state should set an example, it should say, here they are. top memorial, all local self-government bodies, business, such people think, well, yes, this means it is important, because the state does not only talk, but does, then there was no one, the only exception is yushchenko, and then only in the projects related to the famine, yes, that is, under yushchenko, it ceased to differ from words to deeds in matters

of memorialization, because the memorial was built in the first place, they were made around the country, but it was only a drop in the ocean, it was only the beginning, so it has never been systematic. unfortunately in the field of culture, and i would also comment on the quote from schopenhauer with which you started this conversation, the point is that it makes sense that a nation is made up of dead heroes, but if a nation is only made up of from dead heroes, it turns into some kind of antique, not a living nation, what is important to us is a nation that remembers, honors and in a symbolic space fixes the importance, like such beacons from the past, the light they send to... ed the future, captures these heroes, these outstanding figures of the past, but makes them part of living life, living discussion, society, scientists, because if this does not happen, well, we will have beautiful folios and dead memorials, which simply no one will go to, we have to come up with ,

how is it to tie like this, actually this bar, which the heroes ask us and in this sense, and i want to continue your opinion, specifically about the neglect of the graves. let's say, you said about lesya, there are many other graves of ukrainian writers, yes, repressed writers, historical figures who are now in a very neglected state... i had a discussion with my polish colleagues, we argued about something some historical, about some historical facts, and my polish colleague said: you just go and look at the grave of stus, in which you see your national genius grave, and then i actually started thinking about who should take care of the graves, and what if there are families there. not everyone has it, yes or they can't, or as in the case of lesi ukrainian women, there is no

one, it's an institute of national memory, it's some kind of city services, how should it work? legally, it now looks like this, if there is a cemetery such as baikovu, which has a special status there, then the relevant services of this cemetery are municipal, by the way, it belongs to the city of kyiv, they are obliged to take care of it, but one thing to take care of. there a couple of times a year, it is old-school to update the inscription, and another thing is to raise funds, launch public discussions, the process of attracting attention, for example, we met with representatives of the kyiv city state administration and the ministry of culture, proactively, because there is an proactive person, mariana toman from of the ministry of culture, this topic is very white to me since the time when we initiated the change of the inscription there to and it's good that anna. starostenko from the kmda agreed, well , we treated it well, and now we are even found several patrons there from volyn who

are ready to finance the project, because there you can’t just come and make it beautiful, you have to make a project, it has to pass an examination, and this is an example of indifference at the level of a program, but it did not arise because there is some big state program, and these are caring citizens who use their duty as public servants to do good deeds, so in essence it is... what hlibovytskyi calls mastery of one's own state, yes, actually, when we, it does not become something foreign, a becomes the norm, because that's what you have to do, you have to occupy your state and use it for the common good of all members of the state, accordingly, this is such an option, but in a good way, it should be civic initiatives of business, which shows, for example, we are taking care of this grave, ideally it should be a state register, something like a national care program for... places of memory, places of final resting place of the most important figures in the history

of ukraine, and this list should be formed according to it have to look after i think there is such a term, in modern legislation: people with special merits to the state, they have there, they have a whole procedure of free burial there, there is the creation of some kind of memorial, but it should be, you know, no longer about party, new parties, new ones. not the high-ranking officials there, but specifically about such people at the level of the stus, well, with all due respect, none of them are representatives of the highest states, the highest officials of independent ukraine, well, there, with the rare exception of some super cool dissidents, who did for these founders of this republic, well, no reaches to level of shock, accordingly, the grave should be such that the shock of that or that mykolaychuk was visible, accordingly, it was supposed to be a state program, but i assure you, as soon as we sew up, for example, such a program of the ministry of finance. will tell us: additional expenditures of the state budget are not foreseen bye-bye, and this must be political will, it

must be fundamental, because it must, for example, like our war on the information front, for example, i often argue, pavlo kazarin says , there is no war in the sphere of culture, it is not that there is no front, yes in the field of information, i do not agree here, there is an information front and a front in the field of culture, because there are top platforms where we can win in the field of culture, and this is a war in the field of culture in russia, the war has been going on for a long time, the same in information, and so , for example, every year we need to have a few million dollars in the budget for translations of such books as those by larisa yakubova, who examines this anatomy of racism, or by elena styashkina, or by the same snyder, translated into languages ​​other than english, by chinese, indian, and so on, that is, hindu, and we we have to have it, because if it's not us, no one will do it, accordingly, this is a specific program, specific funds, it's not some kind of big money, that's how it should be. but the society should come to its deputies, whom the elections will wear them for a jacket, you submitted, you

submitted this item to the state budget, or the institute of our memory, why didn't you support it, why didn't you tear your jacket at the committee, until you knock out this item, but most citizens are busy with other issues, other deputies are busy, and deputies are busy with other issues, and we have to sit this the state finally, to use it for the good of the same state, and regarding the political will of the political class and also regarding why we as citizens do not take from... the jacket, the political class and do not say whether you did it. i remember the speech of svitlana aleksievich, when she received the nobel prize, she came here, met in, i think it was in moghila. with the students, and she then said this thing that the post-genocide nations, they, she, she said so, we are very easy to step over our fallen, because there were so many, yes, there were so many million, which we are used to, she was talking about the soviet people, yes, but now i am asking

you about the post-genocide nation of ukrainians, isn't that why we don't abuse our politicians? and why , and why, isn't that why we do our business, because we are a post-genocide nation, or is it somehow related to the fact that we don't respect heroes enough, i think there are at least three reasons, and maybe better experts than i may be called more, the first reason is that it is scary for us to realize how many such people there could be, that is, even to approach of this topic, not in the sense that we are used to trespassing, or we begin to understand that as soon as we touch this box, there will appear ... more, more, more, and we will eventually have to realize how many such people lie throughout the entire space of both modern ukraine and the soviet union, that is, this is a certain system of warning of fear, once, secondly, you still have to give, well, you have to admit that the 90s, it was a very difficult

time in economic terms, when people actually survived , that is, families, good families, which should first of all become the conscience of this. well forced used to sell pants in stadiums in order to survive, and accordingly, in such a situation you have three children on your back, and such a situation that there is no salary for three months, five months, and you simply cannot at this time , psychologically it is difficult for you to go and tell someone something about someone's graves, if your children are not fed, this is the second reason, well , the third reason, this helplessness that was cultivated by the soviet system, because it was trained on the fact that... a person did not interfere in these matters , she could quietly take care of her own, that is, the space of civil society the responsibility of a soviet person had to end at his door, at the door of his apartment maxim, well, the state is foreign, we could not take over a foreign state, it even sounds abstract, the entrance is foreign, so there is always no care, and only now, when we have gradually

created the osb, having created some forms, when we built relations with private property in a slightly different way, we began to... expand a little, then together with our neighbors we cleaned the entrance, then we began to plant flowers around apartment buildings, then decentralization, we began to feel there the community, for example, go to the rush and feel how the community works, there, well, in addition to the fact that there is a wonderful head who works on it, but it is being built little by little, you understand , it’s mine, it’s ours, it’s common, it, and accordingly, before that happened, these are some other people's graves, someone else's family, and since i have a border, a door, a border. a safe space, maybe i know for sure that i can influence and i won’t get anything for it, it’s my door, my apartments and not always, then it’s not like that, that is, these three factors will definitely influence, and understanding this, working with it, changing it little by little with specific examples that the state should encourage, it can't do everything , the state will never do, no state will ever have enough money for this, but it should set an example, say do this, i

bless it , i support it, but she won't, it's a vicious circle until we as citizens start. it is to demand, representatives of the state authorities, it is us, it is the same people, like me, for example, in 2019 i was not a representative of the authority, i on my own i went to this competition with my head and got into this system, and i understand, but this is the right way, i will cross myself, i will resign, someone next has to come and say, yes, friends, not to myself, not to my bunch of people there, my community or my family, i will do something there, for all of us, that is, to work for all of us, this is the only way we will... master this state, change this approach, and finally we will have this list of places of memory for which we we all answer together, and each fundamentally. thank you, now we will, as promised, talk about our own ukrainian arlington, about why there is so long a discussion, a search for a place, the adoption

of a law on a national memorial cemetery or cemetery where we are buried. now , in the 22nd year, the draft law on the creation of this national memorial military cemetery was passed, why is it so difficult to make this decision and it takes so long? so, i will start with the background, so that nothing falls out, because it is important for the logic of understanding. the project of the cemetery arose, the very first project arose from the times of yanukovych, some generals gathered, almost not the ministry of internal affairs, at least i saw. the 11th year, i remember , it was azarov, maybe because somewhere in russia they built a military, and these old, well-deserved, well-deserved, veterans, including those of the soviet systems, wanted to have a good place for themselves, but... this the project did not take off, thank god, but then the government issued an order in the 15th or 16th, i have already forgotten, and in particular the institute of national memory

to develop the end, the institute of national memory even then in the 16th or in the 17th he developed this project, there were consultations, the project of the military memorial cemeteries and, in general , this three-step logic with which i started, it arose in the institute in the 15th and 16th and in the very first consultations with the state. cadastre created a specific land plot for this cemetery, because a state land was needed and b- a lot of state land, several hundred hectares, because everyone understood that it should be arlington, it is 300 + hectares, and that it could not be some "jatachok somewhere on the bran in kyiv, it must be fundamental, it is a space of memory for centuries, at the time no one thought about a full-scale war, but even then they thought that it should be such a cemetery, and accordingly, the only suitable site was, then they talked about the vita post office, but now it is the gatnia cemetery. and even then this plot , which is finally approved now, was put up and the institute itself offered it back then, near the southern cemetery, it is right next to the southern cemetery, which is a plus,

because the road to odessa is a large highway, which allows many to conveniently drive up, b, there is already a cemetery nearby, accordingly there are sanitary facilities the sanitary zone is respected, and there is also a wooded area there, but there, due to illegal felling over decades of this kind of management, there... the produced massifs are illegitimate and, accordingly , will even suffer, well, that is, the forest here, the forest plantation will be almost not affected or less affected than in some other place, well, and arlington, if we look at it is a space interspersed with trees, accordingly , this is how it came about, then in the 22nd, then the institute developed a law on cemeteries together with the ministry of defense, the ministry of defense and years, and i got trips to all these problem groups, pavlo podebet, who was responsible for this at our institute, simply did not get out of the committees, from the ministry of defense, they agreed. one of the principle points was not to hide kgbists there, any full-fledged cavaliers, the order of lenin and so on, and this with a lot of blood, but we managed to agree on everything so that it was, well, really people who fought for

independence for ukraine, and we still chose it, it should be a state cemetery with a memorial, with appropriate infrastructure and so on, and the law is adopted, and the law, unfortunately, was adopted only in the 22nd, already after the beginning of a full-scale war, but the struggle for this law itself stretched on for years. for years, i think, if it weren't for the war, we would still be searching for this law, but once again a part of accountants, who are always present in any government, say, it's expensive, it 's billions, well, it's billions, respectively 22 -th year for the place, and here it began, i call it vekhanalia, ideas began to flow, because the law does not fix the place, the law of the 22nd fixes the cemetery, does not fix the place, and here they begin, let's build on lysia gora, let's let's build in a woman's ravine, let's give a singing field, and we just... we at the institute looked at all this with such eyes, we didn't have time to comment that it's simple, first of all, read the law, it's like that, there's a list of objects like that , that space is needed there

, accordingly, all these proposals, and the families of the victims hear this story and think that it would really be good in the center, in the center of kyiv, where it is easy to get to, but then they begin to face questions, elementary questions, if we know we are somewhere in the center of kyiv, 100 + ha... such a garden, no, because there is no 100 + ha in the center of kyiv, and if we take some of those locations and one of these, i consider provocative ideas, it was to make this cemetery in the side room, and this was probably the last straw, because many families are very much for for this, for this, for this location, they took care of the side house, the side house, the families of the fallen, and why? and because they were told that it is almost, almost in kyiv, that there is a lot of space, but... they were not told one very important thing, that this is a place of memory, already in which, unfortunately, in this forest, rather for all with a very high probability there will be mass burials from the time of stalinist

repressions, and this is where another trigger was turned on, that most of our people are not aware of and do not realize this problem, that is, even some high-ranking officials, i come, i remember very well, i talk to the architect, and the architect says, i ask him, so let's build this one, well, they tell him, build it in... no, he says: well, it's like the same place, well, it can be risky there, there is, well, if we find mass burial, we have to stop the construction, we have to exhume, do, and they say to him, no, let's come up with something , he says, okay, let's go, why not in a woman's ravine, he is like no-no, well , you can't in a woman's ravine, this is a place of memory, that is, a bullpen even at the level of people was not recorded as such a place of memory where it is impossible to detach, and accordingly it was a serious story of such miscommunication and people from... i don't like doing it, but then it all ended up in the space of political speculation,

because part of the parliament, ah... introduced a draft law for a bullpen, a bullpen, and the council voted, but the president did not sign it, and they are calling me to tell me in more detail, they are calling me from the president's office and asking, and i am at the front, we are generally standing under orichov, on the zaporizhzhia direction , i could pick up the phone, because we have a starling, i pick up the phone, i say, i can’t speak now, we are leaving here on combat duty , the president calls, he asks what the problem is with the bullpen, because part of the law came, and part of the experts say that there is a caveat, ask: c the institute of national memory, they tell me , and i tell them, well, you show me five or six risky items, and they, well, the president says, well, that’s right, but why didn’t they take this into account before, a logical question, and it turns out that the parliament voted, and he , as a person who understands that this will be a disaster, that we will be stuck there for another five years or however long we can, and then the issue of changing the place of the memorial, the place under it , cemeteries, is initiated to the good thing, which we immediately proposed, and in, well... the parliament,

thank god, he is voting in gatno for his plot, which is in support of the decision of the government in gatno, but what struck me was that more than 300 deputies supported it, we, i personally got involved with the minister of agriculture got involved, because it is a question of land and the allocation of land there, and we went to the factions and explained, well , almost all the deputies voted, except for some, except for one faction, because it became part of the political such an ugly situation, because some of the deputies said that... they do not respect the parliament, that they do not want to sign the bullpen, he, they believe that the president did not sign the draft law that was initiated by the opposition political force, that they said yes, no, that they said the president does not respect the parliament, because he should have signed the bullpen, because the parliament first voted for him, already then they might cancel it, re-vote, and it made the situation politically very ugly, and well, we went around these factions, they said, well, come on

, you won't get involved in this issue... include this in the plan, well, if the opposition should always be in power , but i say, let's not be here, and the majority of the opposition forces, well, a large part of them agreed and did not discuss it, well, in such a bad way, they voted for gatne, well, some did not, well, again, i am against no one in my opinion there i didn't vote, people abstained, but you know , this is a case that says that very often we cannot cross the line because of political ambitions, even in such very important issues, prime minister. gave an engagement to in six months of this 24th year to build the first sector the first sector and eh now there are many questions to, i see that you just recently participated in the discussion of the design of typical naverobk, and in general now there are many questions and discussions about how it should look, what it will be like in terms of architecture and design, what kind of

space it will be, or you? can you tell us in a few words what the idea of ​​this large space, the space of the memorial cemetery, is? so, the law provides that it must be a large object, in which sense it is large, there must be a museum that tells about the history of warriors in general, the place that very much in line with the memorial that you asked about at the beginning, a museum that will tell about what kind of wars ukraine fought in certain times and how, why is this place of memory. represents various fighters for the actual freedom of ukraine , including her, of course, a large part of this museum will be dedicated to the modern war, because, unfortunately, this is the majority of burial places, although it was not originally intended, but of course it will be for those people who died, or then already after the victory they will live peacefully and die and have the right to be buried in this treasure, then, accordingly, the museum , which will tell, then there should be a memorial, a memorial,

a large national memorial, which, well... actually honors all those who died and who fought, it is such a simple memorial place, then there should be a large crematorium, because in we lack a crematorium, a city crematorium, well, in kyiv, it cannot withstand the load, the infrastructure is old, it is generally old technologies, they need to be restored, accordingly, this crematorium will also serve these cemeteries in a better way, plus it will help with the infrastructure of this , it is further assumed that there is a large... space for columbariums , yes, there will be a modern technical administrative building there, an archive that will keep a list of those people, maybe even production workshops where they will be made, or our memorial cemetery will have a special system, and it will be regulated by the cabinet of ministers , who won't be there, you know how it often happens now that somewhere there is a boy with a guitar sitting in...