for the second hour, i will be with you oleksiy holobutskyi, viktor boberenko, serhiy tiran, cool guests, cool experts, stay with us, now bbc news ukraine, let's watch, then continue. russia made public the conversations of german officers about the transfer of taurus missiles to ukraine. for berlin it is a scandal, for moscow it is material for propaganda, but how this leak will affect the western supply of weapons for the ukrainian army, we are talking about this on bbc newz ukraine live from london, i am yevgenia shedlovska. well, the ministry the defense ministry of germany admitted that the conversations of the representatives of their air force were intercepted, but they did not comment on the content, whether the recordings were edited or not, they are currently investigating how this leak could have happened, what kind of leak it was for... the recordings of the conversations

were made public in russia on march 1, the head of the russian state tv channel, margarita simenyan, published a 38-minute long audio and transcript, a written translation in russian, on social networks. allegedly, this conversation took place less than two weeks before, on february 19. to high-ranking officers of the bundeswehr discuss how they will bomb the crimean bridge. this is how semenyan described it. the bridge is in the east, as it literally sounds in the recordings, in fact, if you listen to the conversation, it talks about the possible supply of long-range taurus missiles to... and how they can be used by the ukrainian military, and where did these recordings come from? simonyan wrote that they were handed over to her by russian security forces, comrades in arms, as she called them. the reaction of the russian authorities is expected. the kremlin spokesman called this conversation an indication of the west's direct involvement in the conflict surrounding ukraine. russian minister minister of foreign affairs serhiy lavrov said that this is a self-exposure of the bundeswehr's insidious plans. and the russian media claimed that due to a leak to the ministry of zakrod. of russian affairs today

summoned the german ambassador to russia and even released a video of the ambassador entering and leaving the mfa building in moscow. and consider that, according to the german media, the german military used an unsecured connection and spoke on a conference platform, that is, one of the main questions in germany now is how these conversations could get into the hands of the russians, and so the authorities wary chancellor olaf scholz, he said that you are only very... serious, so now it is very carefully, very intensively and very quickly found out what happened, and the head of the committee of the german parliament prohibition , on the contrary , says: there is nothing surprising and shocking in the fact that conversations are intercepted, there is no need to strengthen security and protection against espionage, such statements are being made, and german defense minister boris pistorius is talking about information warfare. this is part of the information war that putin is waging, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. it

the hybrid attack is designed to misinform, to divide, to undermine our resolve. these conversations were about the alleged transfer of german taurus cruise missiles to ukraine. this has been talked about for a long time, but there is no solution. first of all, because the german authorities are worried that such missiles can reach the territory of russia. actually, as chancellor olaf scholz said about it earlier. the weapon, which is even the most powerful, is a jet. the heimer installation is capable of much more than the taurus, but with a maximum range of 500 km, if used incorrectly can get into a certain goal somewhere in moscow, so this is a weapon where the questions of what we will do with it and how to use it cannot be solved simply by slogans for our own encouragement, it is the government in germany that decides whether to provide such weapons to ukraine or not, while the german the parliament previously called on the government to provide ukraine with a long -range weapon system, but in that case it was not

specifically about the taurus, only in general terms to provide long-range weapons. taurus missiles can fly twice as far as missiles that have already been transferred to ukraine by britain and france. 500 km is the range of taurus, while stormshadow and scalp are 250 km. actually, there was an expectation that after britain and france , germany would transfer long-range missiles to ukraine. in general, taurrus, stormshadows, and scalp missiles are like sisters, they were developed as part of a joint project, they are similar. load, guidance, but the difference in engines, and due to this taurus can fly so far. serhii sumlenny, political scientist, director of the initiative center european stability, is also in touch with us from berlin. welcome to the air. after this leak, taking into account all the internal disputes in the german government and in the parliament, regarding the provision of taurus missiles to ukraine, did this bring the provision of these missiles closer, or on the contrary, distance them? ah... good evening and

thank you for inviting me, but actually the situation is not good, because it is obvious, as many german politicians have already said, this is... an operation of russian psychological influence, it is aimed at creating in germany, it is additional, that is, the idea that the transmission of the taurus will be a transition through a red one there line for putin, that this will lead to an escalation of the conflict, that then something terrible will happen, which means that putin will strike germany, and we see that this conversation and it... are now mainly spread by supporters of right-wing parties, an alternative for germany, left-wing parties , the left, and this is the circle of people around chancellor scholz, who in this way receive their support not from the ranks of their own government coalition, but from the ranks

of radical, right-wing, radical left-wing pro-russian forces. we remember how it appeared in the summer a message from the german media that germany is considering transferring. tauruses to ukraine, but having changed the range so that they do not fly so far, why has germany not yet handed over these missiles, what deters berlin the most, what are the red lines? well, it is chancellor scholz who restrains berlin the most, because the transfer of such weapons requires the approval of the german security council, and in the security council chancellor scholz has a veto vote, that is, he can prohibit it, and it is not even, as far as we understand, it is even not... was put on the agenda of the security council, scholz blocks it, despite the fact that other members of the security council, such as representatives of the green or liberal party, are not against it, but scholz believes that this cannot be allowed, and so he invents all these arguments, which

are either completely false or partly false, for example, that german soldiers are necessarily needed to service these missiles, this is not true, these missiles are in the... arms of south korea, there are no german soldiers there soldiers, or that these missiles can to reach moscow, this is also not the case in order to shoot these missiles at moscow, ukraine must first capture the belgorod and kursk regions, for example, which ukraine does not have in its plans, as far as i understand, or what to program these missiles, again you still need the coordinates that germany should transfer, this is also not true, all experts, including representatives of the manufacturer's company, say that this is not true. oh, but these arguments continue, they are mixed in different proportions, red ones are added there putin 's line, it is added there, it means the need to uh, it is essential and thoroughly checked, although it is not clear how much more can be checked, that is, it is clear that scholz does not want this, and this is the main and, in fact

, the only argument for not providing these missiles . mr. serhiy, please stay in touch with us, now we will listen to the comment of another columnist who says that germany. found herself in an uncomfortable position due to intercepted conversations, that's what politico columnist matthias katichnyg, who works in berlin, said on the bbc. i think that the germans are still trying to figure out what happened and how, it seems that they have become such easy prey, because this is exactly what the russians have been known for for decades, since the soviet era. from time to time they release what they have collected during various operations. this time they released it via rasha today, a russian propaganda broadcaster, in order to leave no doubt as to the origin of the audio recording. this leak means a lot, it puts chancellor scholz in a very awkward position, in particular because only last

last week he more or less categorically ruled out sending taurus cruise missiles to ukraine, saying that it would require germany to send its military into ukraine, and he was worried that doing so would... germany would be drawn into the conflict, but during this intercepted conversation , in which the commander of the german air force also participated, military officers denied this and assumed that there would be no need for such a placement, so now scholz has a lot to explain, and the opposition is already demanding an investigation and says that in the matter of weapons for ukraine, he is completely lost trust, and now there is a great fear of new leaks, because this may not be an isolated case, it is an uncomfortable situation for germany. some german officials said it appeared the russians simply joined a video conference on the webex platform and the military didn't even notice the russians were there. it begs the question how did the russians get the conference number with the email bench or something, so now

germany will need to review their communications protocols in and out of the military, so there is no doubt that this leak will have serious consequences. it's no secret that the german... the army doesn't have the best reputation, they're not considered the most successful army in europe, they've had several espionage scandals in the past where the german military was allegedly working with the russians, so it's just another... how the german military became such an easy prey for russia, as the politico viewer said? well, our former chancellor angela merkel said in her interview a few years ago that the internet remains a new, unfamiliar territory for us, well , that's how it appeared, that is, it is obvious that the bundeswehr was... underfunded for many decades, not even years, it's obvious that there was no investment in secure communication systems, it's obvious

that they just probably don't exist, or they are there, but they're very congested and they won't be used for every conversation, and me i think that these officers simply did not consider that their conversation was something secret, that is , they did not actually say anything there, they discussed everything that is discussed openly on the air of talk shows, that is, for russia. it was not the content of this discussion that was the most interesting, and they had to set up officers and create a scandal, that is, the scandal was created precisely by the fact of the interception and the fact that they were discussing something, and then the russians began to distort that it was the germans who were discussing plans to attack russia, and all moscow's allies in germany all these right-radical adn, left-radical left and people around the chancellor sho'. they picked up on it and began to say that neither or not here, means the composition of the crime,

the preparation of an aggressive war, and whether it should be started, means the investigation of the prosecutor's office, that is, it has already begun to live in its own way, er, that is, of course, that is certain, let's say this, no , then it is stupidity and certain not so, so it means that there was inattention, and of course they are guilty of this, but the russians are trying to make a much worse scandal out of it than.. ... there is, and this is exactly the problem, it is a typical operation of psychological influence. but still, how will this leak affect germany's relations with its nato allies, and will the germans be trusted? well, it has been known for many decades, if not years, that if you want something discussed in the kremlin and something put on the table, so, to the russian president, then ningtsin will inform about it, and it will very quickly end up in the kremlin. er, the german special services have not been trusted for quite a long time, and the german

special services are actually excluded from many information exchange systems precisely because the information system is not protected, and there are too many agents of influence, and this is known to the british and our other allies, unfortunately , well, it’s good that it’s known and they ’re being careful, the problem is that i didn’t understand how to get out of... because the recent detentions of russian agents in german the special services obviously did not help, the system is quite heavily infiltrated not only by agents, but also by people who are not directly under moscow's control, but are , let's say, in the tenets of this russian narrative, and in fact work effectively on russian narratives, even if they are not guided directly, and this is the problem, and obviously there is no way out of it... you can get out of it so easily and quickly. thank you, mr. sergey. serhiy sumlenny, political scientist, director

of the initiative center european stability , was with us on the air. thanks, we could talk about this german conversation leak of the military about the possible provision of taurus missiles to ukraine. well, you can read more about this on our website bbc.ua, taurus question. germany is investigating a possible leak of a conversation of its military, which was published in russia, and so on. follow our pages in social networks if you haven't already done so, you can watch our broadcasts on youtube if you missed them live. with that i say goodbye to you until tomorrow, see you.

i'm watching the announcement there and the verdict is me and then there's a big broadcast again today i'm you i'm sure you 'll dream of the program verdict three my name is vasyl zima, serhiy rudenko, will join the work, i hope in the coming days, but for now, while we are working, i am working in this situation, well, with my colleagues, of course, who are preparing ours. ether, we have the second part, and before introducing the guests, i would like to offer you a short announcement of what will actually be discussed. agency network. investigator bellingket claims that there are

fsb agents among ukrainian politicians and public activists. whose names can be spun? maidan 3 remains on the agenda. ukrainians are warned about a disinformation campaign against zelensky, who can be declared provocateurs? do trumpists in the us congress continue to block american aid to ukraine? what can be expected if trump wins the election? well, actually, we asked you today, our dear tv viewers, do you expect the end of us aid in the event of trump's victory? well. we still haven't received help anyway, we believe that we will get it, but i can't see well, but in my opinion we are now, and we will announce the intermediate results already then, there was more, by the way, what was interesting, more there were those who expect that there will be help, than those who expect that there will be no help, this is positive, but even here on youtube we have a vote, by the way, you can vote here too, 45% think that there may be

an end aid, and 55% believe that no, even for... aid to ukraine will continue to come, well, as long as the war continues on one scale or another, now it continues on a full-scale, as they say, scale, this is a big war, that not a frozen conflict, there is no anti-terrorist uprising, it is a war, a great war, and we are living in this war, and about we will talk with us, oleksiy holobutsky, political scientist, deputy director of the situation modeling agency, mr. oleksiy, i congratulate you, i know that mr. oleksiy is a political... technologist, it is not possible, but here i can write a political technologist, mr. oleksiy holobutskyi. thank you, thank you, and we have serhii tiran, a political scientist, and also, let's stop at that, okay, okay, so be it, a political scientist, and viktor will also join us, and there is viktor bobarenko, a political scientist, expert, analysis bureau politicians, mr. viktor, i greet you from the indomitable sumy region, good to you

hello, so i'll start by saying that i... ask you to answer this question: do you expect the end of us aid in the event of trump's victory, yes or no, mr. oleksiy, the first is your answer, well, based on that , what trump did during his first presidency, it is probably not that he will help, just that you can expect a slightly different version of help in ukraine from him. okay, what else, i think, we will find out during our broadcast, and this is how we continue serhiy, mr. serhiy, your opinion. well, in short, hopefully, we'll discuss this in detail later, i think that after the apparent return of trump to his position, there will be an attempt at a huge geopolitical

bargain, with russia, with the participation of maybe some other actors, but mainly with russia, and that's the argument.. .there during the negotiations will be the weapons that the united states will or will not provide to ukraine. therefore, it is clear that weapons will be a factor in this game. but whether this geopolitical game will end with the cessation of military aid, i doubt it. may, for example, it will easily happen that trump will not agree on anything with putin and support for ukraine may even be renewed on a larger scale. therefore, weapons will play their role here, but definitely. does not know the answer to your question for sure, i think that even trump does not know these answers to your question. and, mr. viktor, what do you think about this? so, what i confirm sergey's words is that even trump does not know what will happen, only the lord god knows what will happen, and trump, well, first of all, he is a populist,

secondly, he is eccentric, he is passionate, but , uh,... in the united states, the role of the individual in history is not as decisive as in the same russia, and therefore i think that there are institutions at work, trump is not the only one who will shape the policy of the united states in relation to ukraine, and yet the republicans still have many people who remember not only mccain, but also reagan, yes, and therefore... the republicans will not leave us without support, and according to trump, well, you need to take this into account, and secondly, yes, they will not agree. with to putin, this is clear, because, well, trump is a supporter of easy solutions, like let's sit down and decide, but with putin, we already have one

politician who tried to come to an agreement through mediation, and we know what happened from that, in the same way, there is no agreement through mediation and trump. yes, well, and then he will take our side. yes, i will remind our viewers that it was under trump that russian fighter jets were struck in syria. it was because of trump that ukraine received weapons, it was because of trump that the wagnerites were destroyed in syria, there from blakehoe helicopters, well, it is because of his presidency, i just want to remind you, because someone thinks that trump is so peaceful, but he is not peaceful at all, and now the russian dog, they are now according to oleksiy danilov, and here i would believe him, obviously he is voicing real numbers, because it's not, well, there 's no need to manipulate or invent anything, it's there, how much is there? 166 or how many million posts, well pro-russian or russian , appear on the network per month, in my opinion per month, if i am not mistaken, 166 million, it is

about ipso, how the russians work, but let's start with the fact that the ukrainians are warning about a disinformation campaign against zelenskyi, here i would expand this issue a little, because not only against zelenskyi, but also disinformation about the situation at the front, i read about this yesterday from the colonel general. oleksandr syrskyi, the commander -in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine, he also writes about this , that be careful, because the russians will say whatever you want to say about avdiyivka, bakhmut there, ugledar, robotina and so on, is russia really investing in this ipso and on what is the main thing, what is the main thing directed, and is there really a reference to the fact that the time will soon come when the 5 years of zensky's presidency will expire, well , we all understand that he will be the president, but you can play on that, mr. oleksiy. well, the russian pso has been working in ukraine , seriously, since 2005, since 2006, and

huge amounts of money have been invested, networks have been created, there have been serious political lobbyists, so, to be honest, there is nothing new here in principle, they were spent. how efficiently it was spent is another question, how effective it is now is also a question. but they are spent, of course, and we lived in russian narratives for years, we consumed russian, russian content, no one saw any problem in this, absolutely, all those people still influence cultural policy and information policy in one way or another countries, they simply believe that if it can be done in one month or one year, it can be changed, that it is a war. of course, this is a huge shock for the population, but there are certain cultural codes that even such shocking circumstances do not change, do not change in people

an idea of ​​the same russia or ukraine in one day, this is a vivid example, for example, the great popularity of the russian tv series, the word "boys" in ukraine last year, that's all... in the results of the work that russia is conducting, and this constantly , we see what happened, i constantly see my colleagues , so-called and not so-called, who stand absolutely on, well, supposedly on patriotic positions, moreover, they work in the pools of opposition politicians, of course, who talk about navalny every day, about how much there were flowers, something else, so to speak, it all works too, this too, this too, this is also russian psok. no matter what we say there , that is, we constantly want to see some, well, that is, we fundamentally, many people

fundamentally still do not perceive russia as an enemy, they perceive as an enemy only the dominant , so to speak, the top there, putin and a few other people, but yes, in principle, russians are more or less normal people, that's why this is all, but about the legitimacy of the president... and all other issues, well, yes, well, there are disputes legal issues continue, but the problem is not only in constitutional powers, in the perception of legitimacy in such a simple version, yes, that is, by people, that is , a certain part of people who do not like zelensky, or who believe that zelensky is doing something wrong, for them, it will be a certain point, regardless of whether it will be the result of the work of the russian. or simply as a result of the fact that, well, really, well, i read interviews with lawyers, i'm not a lawyer, who talk about it quite seriously, about real problems that exist and

solutions. these problems, probably the office of the president is also thinking about it, but again, we have already passed such a moment, yes, we remember what was called operation shatun, yes, yes, now it will be called operation maidan-3, or something in another way, well, this is the normal practice of any government when, let's say, its rating starts to decrease and some problems appear, to look for part of its problems. transfer to internal enemies, which is very good, if it can be arranged as sponsored or fed up or in some other way by russia, this is very good, you know , i will stop right here for a little while, because it is important to understand, but we will talk with mr. serhiy, because i clearly understand that, well, the constitution provides for certain things, in we have never had a big war, maybe now it is necessary to prescribe some governments and

national unity, some kind of government. salvation , i don’t know, that is, then we have to think, if the constitution says 5 years and that’s all, and it doesn’t say anything else, well, it’s not written in the constitution, we understand that the president he is needed and should be, he is the supreme commander, he has been in this war for two years, regardless of who loves him, who does not, well, and again, he will not be the president, stefanchuk continued, come on, let him try to be the supreme commander -in-chief, and then the question, here is the question, is whether to keep everything as it is, because there will definitely be someone who will exclaim that the king is not real, but what about... well , we globally understand that this will not change anything, there is a war, and it is necessary to win everything, mr. serhiy, in your opinion, who can should there be steps here, or should we just close the issue and say, we live like this, well , this is the situation, although the constitution says about 5 years, well, but now we are, well, i won’t say, understand the consequences of any of our words and conclusions , if suddenly someone will raise the issue of the legitimacy of the current government, it

means that... new elections must be held, well , who can organize safe democratic elections in ukraine now, and no one. therefore, it is now obvious that the government will remain as it is, and there will be any talk about it illegitimacy, they will, well, in fact, really, really harm what is happening in ukraine now, because it will undermine the legitimacy of ukrainian institutions in general. so now, while the war is going on, while the time of the war is going on, i think that any question about the illegitimacy of ... the current authorities is completely inappropriate and they can really be used by russia. when you're talking about a government of national trust, that's a different matter. by the way, i have been talking about this for a long time, when during the war the authorities had to make decisions difficult decisions, well, for example, related to mobilization or related to some other things that the state is forced to do there, although these are completely unpopular things, then a government of national trust is needed. moreover, it

would be... very beautiful and correct if , during the war, the authorities would initiate a government of national trust at the very beginning of the war, a great war, because it would be a signal to the world that ukrainians are united, that they will not engage in political struggle, and there will be no political struggle, because the government of national unity is when all its political forces are united in one government, there is no opposition in particular, there is no one to criticize, so it would be the right step, but it has nothing to do with this issue about the so-called legitimacy or illegitimacy of president zelensky, these are other questions, completely different, and i believe that in principle a government of national unity could be created, it would be a very good signal, because in fact , sometimes, you know, we say that we don't have politics, but sometimes politics is cut through by some violations, selective violations of the right of position, or the fact that , for example, we still do not have freedom of speech in

matters where... it could be, well, for example, not military matters , and issues that affect corruption, issues that affect those things that are needed in the country to strengthen our defense, because there , for example, there would be no need to introduce censorship, and we have it in the form of, well, the so -called single telethon , that's why, in fact, these political issues cut through, but i would like there to be fewer of them, and a government of national trust - it would be such a good answer to all these questions, well, what about what... russia will do and use the so-called legitimacy or illegitimacy of power as ibso, yes, i have no doubt about it, russia has been waging information wars against ukraine for more than a year, it has been waging these information wars for more than a decade. moreover, this war has always been called a hybrid in our country precisely because of this informational component, so there is no news here, just to distinguish russia's information war and the discussion of urgent problems that are really

needed in ukraine. for this we need to learn how to react.