oh, in the 90s and 2000s, if we talk about places of memory, some places of memory appeared, in particular, near the parliamentary library , there is a small memorial built by the city, by the way, dedicated to the revolution about him, almost no one is like that, but it is heavenly the hundred , it is the heavenly hundred, but simply the heavenly hundred and in general the memorialization of the heavenly hundred and in some sense became this place, this space of memory, which is awakened by this question that you... speak of, where is our great memorial, where is our pantheon, so to speak, here, but from a conceptual point of view only the institute of national remembrance properly justified this idea sometime after 2015, there were expert groups, and the cabinet of ministers approved the organizing committee, and even we prepared it under volodymyr vitrovich, it started, and it was completed under me, we submitted the project of the vyssky memorial cemetery and the pantheon until...

well, so to speak, even the places have been finalized, several options of places have been selected, which, for example, are now the largest two most authoritative places, this is where the arch of freedom of ukraine has now been renamed the former arch of friendship of peoples, this is the first point, because i succeeded in the disposition and it was initially discussed as one of the most likely locations, and the second location, we talked with the director of the lavra nature reserve, with mr. ostapenko and near the lavra there is an ancient kyiv locus, solyana hirka, where this famous bishop pavlo of moscow is mercedes was building the patriarchy, and mercedes was building some illegal buildings there, and this locus is also considered as one of the possible locations for the construction of such a national pantheon, but so far the government has not been there for several months, several years...

accepts and underestimates, well, i understand, the war is now the draft concept of this pantheon, because the logic was like this, which means a three-level system of remembrance, sectors of military burials in all the population, there were more than four hundred of them, in the 15th and 16th year, that is, in all cemeteries there is a sector of military burials, this is the first level, the second level, the national military memorial cemetery near kyiv , a large space, which we will talk about further, and the third level is the national pantheon, a certain symbolic one. the point in the center, i.e. this logic, this architecture memory system, it was proposed by the institute, in principle it seems quite logical to me, of course it is somewhat classical, it is more classical, but considering that we do not have such an infrastructure, it is very good, for all kinds of innovative things, because now in fact, we have to build what you are talking about, and this is a classic for the nation, but in general, the world trends, that we are coming to a new culture of memories, so we have to ... complete this gestalt of the old

classic and not hinder creation further new memorials, for example , the cross of heroes memorial was recently opened, in the gcc it was actually practiced in vyshgorod, this is an example of such a modern memorial, and i have already said about glory park, which is located in the center of the city, in the center of kyiv, yes, by the way , not far from the lavra, not far from the museum of the future museum. sea, ah, not far from this stele, which is now there, ah, and this place itself, this glory park was built back in 1957, and some soviet soldiers are buried there, some ukrainians, some not ukrainians, it seems that there are 24 graves there, yes, the fact is that there is, there is an eternal fire, and this place, due to the fact that it was not there,

was rethought, it became the place where the eyes passed, on may 9, soviet communist pro-russian such rallies, you remember how people walked from arsenalna square there under red symbols, under soviet symbols, eh, and here i am all the time, what am i thinking about, anton, i am all the time thinking, looking at this place, about how , which is a place in the center of warsaw, a place to honor the heroes of different wars and... different eras, this place on pilsudski square, in the center of warsaw, under the colonnade of the saxon palace, there is a grave for an unknown soldier, yes, and it is written there: here lies a polish soldier who died for his homeland. the idea is to honor all those who died for poland. there are 18 shields with the names of various battles in... decisive for

poland and there are urns, 24 urns from the 24 battlefields of the second world war, the eternal flame of honor. and so on. volodymyr zelenskyi was there, bowing to the memory of an actually unknown soldier. my question is so long with a long lead-in to why couldn't we bury you there in our park, the kyiv park of glory, bury the threshold of our soldiers from various battlefields and make it a pantheon. this, it seems to me, was the best place of memory, and a place, such a symbolic sign of commemoration of the unknown. ukrainian soldier, i would like to simply note that the pantheon, at least in the concept that is currently being discussed, is not only a military pantheon, because the ukrainian community, the ukrainian nation, as well as the ukrainian space, is created not only by military glory, outstanding

artists, scientists, creators, they are now seriously discussing the topic, so that the pantheon reflects these different stages of progress, and these were the great princes of the past, hetmans, writers. that is, people, representatives of different groups, and there is something in this, it does not mean that we do not need to have a separate war memorial, a proper one, because the war memorial in the capital and the war memorial are two different memorial objects with two different functions, here that's why it's just such a bandwagon, now why didn't we do this, it's a problematic question, why, because it shows, in particular, our attitude as a community to the memory of the second world war. because the russian narrative, all these scripros, they tried to instrumentalize the place of memory of the second world war, how to stop it, if it is the russian world, the soviet space, and so on, and they did not succeed to the end, for example, the museum second ukraine in the second world war, they tried very hard to create

a space of such a soviet symbol from it, but they did not succeed, that is, the museum itself was destroyed, and the scientists themselves were destroyed, and it was against the place, therefore... on the one hand , no one would have even thought of the 90s-2000s, because it was not a problematized memory of the second world war, after the 2000s, even after the adoption of anti- communist decommunization laws in 2015, if you look carefully look, in the package of decommunization laws there was a package, there was a law on perpetuating the memory of defeating nazism in the second world war, and this law is a painting of all parties of the parliament at that time in that they do not touch the memory of the second world war, not for'. that is, a conscious compromise: the hall votes decommunization, ukrainian culture , so to speak, does not touch the subject of the second world war in a critical sense, well, in the sense of reinterpretation, because the ancient greek krine is a weighing, yes, that is, it does not reconsider, thus, on the one hand, the decommunization

legislation launched this process of eradicating the soviet, but on the other hand , they put a taboo on touching the topic of the second world war, that is, they were not afraid, they could not trade. this is already the second question, that is, this topic of the second world war and a serious rethinking, it is for the russians, it was fundamental, because this is part of the scrap, for part of society, this discourse never took place in the 90s, it turned out, well, everyone understands that this is an important memory, because we lost from eight to 10 million people in the second world war, this a never-disappearing topic for us, but how to approach, how to touch the overgrowth, if even the political leadership, the top president, the parliament could not touch it... these topics were never touched even before a full-scale war, already only with the adoption of laws on submission of the imperial heritage, these fuses were actually removed, and now we can seriously talk about it, and no one touched it before, not even the most great and bright patriots who tried alone there, in particular the institute of national memory tried to raise this, but at

the highest level it was all extinguished, well , i remember how dare viktor yushchenko touch this, he even speaking near this... the very museum of the second world war, he once invited soviet veterans and soldiers of the upa, he said that all the people who fought in the second world war for the independence of ukraine are our heroes, we are them we honor, and you remember what noise there was then, how people did not perceive, that is , society was not ready, not only the political class, society, well, and now we are ready, what prevented us from doing it after the 15th-14th year these... as if this sacredness has fallen, so this madness has fallen, but we already have 10 years of war, now what is there to be done, let's say there, after the 15th , sacredness did not fall, i say, laws, decommunization laws - this is 2015 year, they capture the inviolability of this theme,

see what the architecture of this looks like according to the law, except for the places connected with the memory of the second world war, except for the monuments of the second world war, everything is excluded, that is, what was this space for? put on hold, well, don't throw it away, i don't think anyone is saying that in slavi park, you should throw out the pra from the graves, you don't need to bury it, so that it stops being only soviet. see, to change , that is, what a healthy process of working with complex memory looks like, we are launching a public debate, scientists, society, civil society, civil society institutions with the support of the state, it continues there for several years, maybe five years , yes, that is, he considers how, for example, questions are asked, that it is necessary to change the memorial series of memorials, change the name, for example, not 41, 45, but 30. 945 and so on, this is an idea that is launched , the state has to support this

discourse, not to impose a ban, yes, roughly speaking, that the monuments are not touched at all, are untouched, but says that it is necessary to rethink the fix at the political level refers, and this was not done, respectively, the first part is a public expert discussion, the second part, the state accepts the results of the public expert discussion, the third part , the state supports key objects, starts financing and shows examples, then on the ground already... local self-government bodies have their local memorials, this is how it should look, each of these stages can occupy for several years, it was never launched in 2015, and we are only just there , i can say for sure that in the 19th and 20th, we launched this discourse about the submission of the imperial legacy, which is called decolonization, and at the legal level we began to promote it , and here on ours, yes so to speak, our request is irritating, as the state reacted to the academic environment. that's why this issue is easier now after the start of the war, so if this process

does not happen by itself, it will not happen, leadership is needed here, because it cannot, for example, let's imagine a person, an engineer, a biology teacher or a salesperson or a saleswoman or a professor i don't know medicine there, they live their normal lives, no one thinks about what is there at the arsenal with the memorial, they know that the second world war is there, it is somehow connected with grandfathers and everything, grandfathers, grandmothers who fought he, if someone does not initiate this discussion, will not ask a valid question, and why not rebury other heroes there, they are like that, well, yes, it is a good story, but this voice of the one who asks this question should be the voice of the state, so that people seriously before this post , this was never done, until, well , roughly speaking, in the 20th year, somewhere in the 22nd, when the threat of russia was already hanging in the air, and even before the symbolic spaces, the last question that i will put before the conversation about military memorials... the complex is a fairy tale, that's for for me, a fairy-tale cemetery, a fairy-tale cemetery

is the principle of such a valuable schizophrenia, yes , when opposite the dissidents, the graves of the dissidents stus, lytvyn and tykhoi, the cemetery of the burial of some kagebi generals, that is, it just sounds, well, like some kind of absurdity and sur, yes, when opposite the graves mykolaichuk... very modestly stands such a snow-white marble figure of the executor of the executor of the executor of the executor of the executor of the murder of the executor of the executor of the murder of gongadza, that is, what to do with it, when it is the central central, there is a cemetery, and on the central avenue, in fact, the entire central alley and all the most prestigious places, they are occupied, if not by kagybi generals and secretaries of the central committee of the communist party of ukraine. well, with all due respect to football players, now and now there is a completely different value trend, so now they are

football players and some people's deputies of the party of regions and so on, what to do with it? well, in such cases , the best way is a special program or efforts of the state to on'. to the strength of these loci associated with, for example, we are now discussing the restoration of the grave of lesya ukrainka, the very fairy-tale center, well, it is not in proper condition, as for the level of such and such a person for our society, accordingly, if the state, for example , will change, restore the alleys, highlight, that is, illuminate, modernize, put up appropriate memorials to hrushevsky, lesya and other figures, it will be this gesture that will change this symbolic. space, but it is not only good wishes, it and a political understanding of this process, b)

leadership, so that, for example, during a war , we can say, we will allocate a certain amount of funds for this from the budget, because there is no one there, or plus the budget, plus a patron, that is, it is a political responsibility, to say that this it will be so, because it is right, and the third story is to allocate these funds, uh, for years, the 90s, 2000s, decades, everyone just talked about the fact that culture is important, even now a lot of people say that culture is important , this is a strategic area. but as soon as it comes to budget appointments, i just don't say that's it to change, but to show, the state must set an example, it must say, here we have processed the top memorial, all the bodies of local self-government, i think this is the business , well, yes, it means it is important, because the state does not only talk, but does, then no one would , the only exception is yushchenko, and then only in projects related to the holodomor, and , that is, zayushchenko - it ceased to differ words, ceased to differ from case to case in matters of memorialization, because the first phase of memorials was built, they were made around the country, but this was just a drop in the ocean

it was only the beginning, so the systematicity of this was never, unfortunately, in the field of culture, and i would also comment on... er, the quote of schopenhauer with which you started this conversation, the fact is that this is a reason , that a nation consists of dead heroes, but if a nation consists only of dead heroes, it turns into some kind of antique, not a living nation, what is important to us is a nation that remembers, honors and in a symbolic space records the importance, like such beacons of of the past, the light they send forward into the future fixes these heroes of these outstanding figures of the past, but makes them part of living life, living discussion, society, scientists, because if this does not happen, well, we will have beautiful folios and dead memorials, which simply no one will go to, we have to think of how to , how to connect, so actually this bar, which the heroes set for us, and in

this sense, and i want to continue your opinion, specifically about the neglect of graves, let's say, you said about lesya, many other graves, ukrainian writers, such repressed writers, historical figures who are very are now in a neglected state, i had a discussion with my polish colleagues , we were arguing about some historical facts, about some historical facts, and my polish colleague said: you just go and look at the grave of stus, in what form do you have your national genius ? grave, and then i actually started to think about who should take care of the graves, yes, if not everyone has families there, or if they can't, or as in the case of the ukrainian woman, there is no one, this is an institution of national memory, this is some kind of , these are some city services, how is this must work legally, it now looks

like this, if there is a cemetery such as baikov, who has a special status there? the relevant services of this cemetery are municipal , by the way, it belongs to the city of kyiv, they are obliged to take care of it, but it is one thing to take care of it in the sense of a couple of times a year , to update the inscription in the old-school way, and another thing is to raise funds, start a public discussion in the process of attracting attention, for example, we met with representatives of the kyiv city state administration, z the ministry of culture proactively, because there is... an initiative person mariana tomen from the ministry of culture, this topic is very important to me since the time when we initiated the change of the inscription there to and it is good that hanna starustenko from the kmda agreed, well, she reacted well to it and we have already found several patrons there from volyn who are ready to finance the project, because there you can't just come and make it beautiful, you have to make a project, it has to pass an examination, and

this is an example of caring at the level, but it did not arise because that there is some big... program, and these are caring citizens who use their duty as civil servants to do good deeds, and in essence - this is what hlibovytskyi calls mastery of one's own state, and in fact, when it does not become something foreign to us, but becomes the norm, because that's what you have to do, you have to occupy your state and use it for the common good of all members of the state, accordingly, this is such an option, but in a good way, it should be civil and... tives of business, which shows an example, here we are we take care of this grave, ideally all of it there should be a state register, something like a national care program for the places of memory, the final resting places of the most important figures in the history of ukraine, and this list should be formed and looked after, it seems to me that there is such a term in modern legislation, people with

special merits to the state, they have it there, they have it all there. the procedure for free burial, the creation of some kind of memorial there, but it should be, you know, no longer about party members, new parties, new high-ranking officials there, but specifically about such people level of shock, well, with all due respect , none of the representatives of the highest states, the highest officials of independent ukraine, well, with the rare exception of some super cool dissidents who did for these founders of this republic, well, does not reach the level of shock, accordingly, the grave has a shock . somewhere in mykolaychuk to be such that it was visible , accordingly, it was supposed to be a state program, but i assure you, as soon as we send, for example, such a program from ourselves, the ministry of finance will tell us about additional expenditures of the state budget. provided bye and it must be political will, it must be fundamental, because it must, for example, like our war, on the information front, for example, i often argue, but pavlo kazarin

says, there is no war in the field of culture, it is not that there is no front , yes, in terms of information, i do not agree here, there is an information front and a front in the field of culture, because there are top platforms where we can win in the field of culture, and this is a war, in the field of culture, we have had a war with russia for a long time, as well in information and... for example, every year we need to have a few millions of dollars in the budget for translations of such books as those by larisa yakubova , which examines this anatomy of racism, or by olena styashkina, or by the same snyder , translations into languages ​​other than english, there into chinese, indian, and so on, i.e. hindi , and we have to have it, because if it's not us, then no one will do it, accordingly, this is a specific program, specific funds, it's not some kind of big money, that's how it should be, but society should come to its deputies, who. .. elections to wear them for a jacket, you submitted, you submitted this to the state budget point, or the institute of memory submitted to us, why didn't you support it, why were you nervous at the committee wearing a jacket until you knock out this

point, but the majority of citizens are busy with other issues, other deputies are busy, and deputies are busy with other issues, we have to occupy this state at last, use it for the good of this same state, and regarding the political will of the political class and also regarding why we as citizens do not take the political class by the coattails and say whether you did it... i remember the performance of svitlana aleksievich, she when she won the nobel prize, she came here, met in, i think it was in mohylianka, with students, and she said something like that, post-genocide nations, they, she, she said that we very easily step over our fallen, because of the fact that there were so many of them, yes, there were so many millions of them, that we are used to in... she said about the soviet people, yes, but now i am asking you about the post-genocide nation of ukrainians, isn't that why we don't abuse our politicians, and why, and why, and isn't that why we

go about our business, because we are a post-genocide nation, is it somehow related to the fact that we don't honor heroes enough? i think there are at least three reasons, and maybe better specialists than i can name more. the first reason is something that we are afraid to realize. how many such could there be, that is, even approach this topic, not in the sense that we are used to transgress, or we begin to understand that as soon as we touch this box, more, more, more will appear, and we will eventually have to to realize how many such people lie all over the space and of modern ukraine and the soviet union, that is, this is a certain system of warning of fear, one, the other, it still has to be given, well, it has to be recognized. that the 90s, it was a very difficult time in economic terms, when people really survived, well, that is, families, good families, who should first of all become the conscience of this nation, well, they had to sell pants

in stadiums in order to survive, and accordingly, at such times, you have three children behind you, and the situation is such that there are no payments for three months and five months, and you cannot at this time it's just psychologically difficult for you to go tell someone something about someone's graves if you have children. malnourished, this is the second reason , well, the third reason is the helplessness cultivated by the soviet system, because it was trained on the fact that a person did not interfere in these matters, he had to quietly do his own thing, that is, the space of civil responsibility of a soviet person had to end with his the doors, the doors of maxim's apartment, well, the country is foreign, we could not conquer a foreign country, it even sounds abstract, the entrance is foreign, so there is always a... and only now, when we gradually created osb, created some forms, when we awakened relations with private property in a slightly different way, we began to expand a little, then

together with our neighbors we cleaned the entrance, then we began to plant flowers around apartment buildings, then decentralization, we began to feel the community there, for example , go to your village and feel how the community works, there, well, besides the fact that there is a wonderful head who works on it, but little by little it is being built... it is mine, it is ours, it is common , this, and accordingly, until this was not, this some other people's graves, someone else's family, and since i have a border, it's a door, a border of a safe space, a border where i know for sure that i can influence and i won't get anything for it, it's my door, my apartments, and not always , then it is not so, that is, these three factors will definitely affect, and understanding this, working with this, changing it little by little with concrete examples that the state should encourage, it cannot do everything, the state will never do, no state will ever have enough money on... but she must show an example, say: do yes, i bless it, i support it, but she won't do it, a closed circle, until we, as citizens, start

demanding it, representatives of the state authorities. it’s us, it’s the same, how about me, for example , in 2019 i wasn’t a representative of a government body, i went to this competition on my own and got into this system, and i understand, but this is the right path, i’ll cross myself , i will resign, someone next should come and say: yes, friends, not to myself, not to my bunch of people there, my community or my family i will do something there, for all of us, that is , work for all of us, that is the only way we will master this state, change this approach and finally... we will have this list of places of memory for which we are responsible all together and each of us in principle, thank you, now, as promised , we will talk about the actual ukrainian arlington, about why the discussion, the search for a place, the adoption of a law on a national memorial cemetery or cemetery, where we are currently burying our

soldiers in the 20th year, is taking so long a bill was passed to create this national memorial military cemetery, why is this decision so hard to make and take so long? therefore, i will start with the background, so that nothing falls out, because it is important for the logic of understanding. the cemetery project arose, the very first project arose from the time of almost yanukovych, some generals gathered, almost the ministry of internal affairs, at least look at the year 2011, i remember, it was azarov, maybe. because somewhere in russia they built a military , and these old, well-deserved, well-deserved veterans , including soviet ones, wanted these systems to also have a good place for myself, but this project did not take off, thank god, but then the government issued an order in the 15th or 16th, i already forgot, and in particular the institute of national memory , to develop the institute of national memory at the end even then in the 16th in the 17th or 17th, i developed this project, there were consultations about the project of the military memorial

cemetery and the logic that, with which i started this stage, it arose at the institute, precisely in the 15th 16th, and in the very first consultations with the state geocadaster, it arose a specific plot of land for this cemetery, because it was necessary and state land, and b- a lot of state land, several hundred hectares, because everyone understood that it must be arlington, it is 300 plus hectares, and that it cannot be some piglet somewhere in the bran in kyiv, it must to be fundamental, this is a space of memory for centuries, at the time no one... did not think about a full-scale war, but even then they thought that it should be such a cemetery, and accordingly, the only suitable site was, then they talked about vytoposhtov, but now it is the gatnyan community, and even then this area, which eventually is now already approved, it appeared and the institute itself offered it, even then, near the southern cemetery, it is right next to the southern cemetery, which is a plus, because the road to odessa is a large highway that allows many people to conveniently drive up, b) there is already a cemetery nearby, accordingly there are sanitary facilities. in the sanitary

zone, plus there is a wooded area, but there, due to illegal felling over decades of this kind of management, there are huge cultivated massifs, and accordingly it will even suffer, well, that is, the forest, this forest plantation will be almost not affected or will be affected less than in some other place, well, arlington, if we look at it, is a space interspersed with trees, accordingly, this is how it arose, then in the 22nd, then the institute developed a law on cemeteries together with the ministry and years... and i got to go to all these problem groups, pavlo podebet, who was responsible for this at our institute, simply did not get out of the committees, defense changes, they agreed, one of the principle points was not to hide the kagbists there, any complete cavaliers there the order of lenin and so on, and it was with a lot of blood, but we managed to agree on everything so that it was, well, really people who fought for independence for ukraine, and we still chose it, it should be a state cemetery with a memorial, with appropriate infrastructure and

so on. and the law is adopted, and the law , unfortunately, was adopted only in the 22nd, already after the start of a full-scale war, but the struggle itself, the struggle for this law stretched for years, for years, i think, if it were not for the war, we would still for this law, again, part of the accountants were investigated, in which is always present in any government, says it 's expensive, it's billions, well, it's billions, respectively, the 22nd year for the seat, and here it began, i call it vekhanalia, the outpouring of ideas began, because the law does not fix the place. the law of the 22nd fixes the cemetery, does not fix the place, and here they begin: let's build on a bald mountain, let's build in a woman 's ravine, let's a singing field, and we at the institute just looked at all this with such eyes, we didn't have time to comment that it's just , first read the law, it's there the list of objects is such that there is a need for space, accordingly, all these proposals, and the families of the victims hear this story and think that it would really be good to be in the center, in the center of

kyiv.