this famous bishop pavlo of the moscow patriarchate built cedes and the first mercedes built some illegal buildings, and this locus is also considered as one of the possible locations for the construction of such a national pantheon, but so far the government has not accepted and reviewed it for several months, several years, well i understand the war now, the draft concept of this pantheon, because the logic was like this, which means: a three-level system of memory, sectors of military burials in all the population, there were more than four hundred of them in in the 15th and 16th years, that is, in all cemeteries there is a sector of military burials, this is the first level, the second level is the national military memorial cemetery, a large space near kyiv, which we will talk about further, and the third level is the national pantheon, a certain symbolic point in the center , i.e., this is the logic, this is the architecture of this memory system, it was proposed by the institute... in principle, it seems

quite logical to me, of course, it is somewhat classicistic, it is more classical, but consider that we do not have such infrastructure, it's very good all kinds of innovative things, because now we actually have to build what you're talking about, and it's a classic for the nation, but in general the world trends that we're coming to a new culture of memories, so we have to complete this gestalt of the old classic and not to prevent the creation of new memorials, for example, a memorial was recently opened. the heroes of the gcc were actually trained in vyshgorod, this is an example of such a modern memorial. and i have already said about slavy park, which is located in the center of the city, in the center kyiv, yes, by the way, not far from the lavra, not far from the museum, the future museum of the holodomor, ah, not far from this stele that is now there, ah, and this place itself, ah... in fact,

this glory park was built back in 1957, and some soviet soldiers are buried there, some ukrainians, some non-ukrainians, it seems that there are 24 graves there, so the fact is that there is, there is eternal fire, and this place, because it was not rethought, it became the place where the soviets held their may 9 parade. similar pro-russian rallies, you remember how people walked from arsenalna square there under the red senvolika, under the soviet symbols, and here i am all the time, what i think about, anton, i am all the time thinking, looking at this place, about how, what is the place in in the center of warsaw, a place of commemoration of heroes of different wars and different eras, this place is on pilsudski square in the center of warsaw. under the colonnade

of the saxon palace there is a grave for an unknown soldier, and it is written there: here lies a polish soldier who died for his homeland. uh, the idea is to honor everyone who fell for poland. there are 18 shields with the names of various battles decisive for poland, and there are urns, 24 urns of 24x. the battlefields of the second world war, and the eternal fire, the guard of honor and so on. volodymyr zelenskyi was there, bowing to the memory of an actually unknown soldier. my question is so long with a long lead to you: why couldn't we bury, there in our park, the kyiv park of glory, bury the prag, from our soldiers from various battlefields, and make it a pantheon. this, i think, was the best. a place

of memory and a symbolic place of honor unknown soldier of ukraine, i would like to simply note that the pantheon, at least in the concept that is currently being discussed, is not only a military pantheon, because the ukrainian community, the ukrainian nation, as well as the ukrainian space, is created not only by military glory, outstanding artists , scientists, creators, they are now seriously discussing the topic, so that the pantheon reflects these different eyes. stages of progress, and these were the great princes of the past, hetmans, writers, that is, people, representatives of various groups, and there is something in this, it does not mean that we there is no need to have a separate military memorial, a proper one, because the military memorial in the capital and the military memorial code are two different memorial objects with two different functions, that's why it's just such a trailer, now why didn't we do this, it's a problematic issue, why, because... it shows, in particular, our

attitude as a community to the memory of the second world war, because the russian narrative, all these conscripts, they tried to instrumentalize the place of memory - the place of memory of the second world war. they did not succeed the end, for example, the museum of ukraine during the second world war, they tried very hard to create a space of such a soviet symbol from it, but they did not succeed, that is, the museum itself was closed, and the scientists themselves were closed, and there was opposition to the place, so with on the one hand , no one would have even thought about the years 90-200, because it was not a problematized memory of the second world war, but... laws, if you look carefully, there was a package in the package with decommunization laws, there was a law on the perpetuation of memories talk about defeating nazism in the second world war, and this law is a painting of all

parties of the parliament at that time in that they do not touch the memory of the second world war, do not affect it, that is, a conscious compromise, the hall votes for decommunization, not ukrainian. culture, so to speak, does not touch the subject of the second world war in a critical sense, well , in the sense of reinterpretation, because the ancient greek krine is a weighing, yes, that is, it does not reconsider, thus, on the one hand, the decommunization legislation launched this process of eradicating the soviet, but with on the other hand, they put a taboo on touching the topic of the second world war, that is, they were not afraid, they could not, they bargained, this is already the second question, that is, this topic of the second world war and a serious rethinking of the world sacred she she. it was fundamental, because it is part of the scrap, for a part of society this discourse never took place in 90-200, it turned out, well, everyone understands that this is an important memory, because we lost from eight to 10 million people in the second world war , this is a never-ending topic for us, but how to approach, how to touch the overgrowth, if even the political

leadership, that is, the president, the parliament, could not is to touch on this topic, and before the full-scale war it was never touched upon, only with the adoption of the laws on the filing of the imperial inheritance, in fact, these fuses were removed and now we can seriously talk about it, and before that no one touched, even the most great and bright patriots who single-handedly tried, in particular the institute of national remembrance tried to raise this, but at the highest level it was all extinguished, well , i remember that viktor yushchenko dared to touch it, he even speaking near it of the museum itself, of the second world war, he once invited soviet veterans and... fell, he said that all the people who fought in the second world war for the independence of ukraine are our heroes, we honor them, and you remember which there was a rumbling then, as people did not perceive it, that is, society was not ready, not only the political class, society, well, but now we are ready, what prevented us

from doing it after the 15th, 14th year, it seems that this sacredness has fallen, that's how this fool slept, well, we've already had 10 years of war, now what the hell... to do it, let's say they record the inviolability of this topic , look at how the architecture of this law looks like, the decommunization laws are the year 2015, after the 15th, the sacredness did not fall, i say, the law, except in places associated with the memory of the second world war, except for the monuments of the second world war, everything is excluded there, that is , this space was put on hold for a reason, well, don't throw it away, i don't think anyone is saying that in the park of glory, you shouldn't throw away the ashes from the graves. to bury it so that it ceases to be only a symbolic soviet memorial, see in order to change, that is, what does a healthy process of working with complex memory look like, we are launching a public debate, scientists, civil society, institutions of civil

society with the support of the state, it lasts there for several years, maybe five years, yes, that is, it makes sense, as, for example, there are questions that the memorial should be changed. to change the name of a series of memorials, for example, not 4145, but 3945 and so on, this is an idea being launched, the state should, well, support this discourse, not impose a ban, yes, roughly speaking , the monuments are not untouched at all, but says that it is necessary to rethink and sat down at the political level, but this was not done, accordingly, the first part is a public expert discussion, the second part the state accepts the results of the public expert discussion, the third part the state receives key objects, local self-government bodies are beginning to finance and show examples further on the ground with their local memorials, this is how it should look, each of these stages can take several years, it was never launched in 2015, and we can only get there for sure to say that in the 19th and 20th we launched this

discourse about the submission of the imperial legacy, which is called decolonization, and at the legal level we began to promote it, and here on our, so to speak... irritant, our request, how the states , the academic environment and the civil society have reacted, so this issue is easier now after the start of the war, so if this process does not happen by itself, it is necessary here. because it cannot, for example, let's imagine a person, an engineer, a biology teacher, or a salesperson or saleswoman, or a professor there, i don't know, medicine, they live their normal lives, no one thinks about what is there on the arsenal with the memorial, they know that the second world war is there, it is somehow connected with grandfathers and everything, grandfathers, grandmothers who fought there, if someone does not initiate this discussion, will not ask a valid question, but why not rebury other heroes there, they are like that, well, yes, this is a good story, but... but this voice of the one who asks this question should be the voice of the state, so that people are serious about this, this is so and it was not done until, well, roughly speaking,

the 20th year, somewhere in the 22nd, when the threat russia, well, it was hanging in the air, and even before the symbolic spaces, the last question that i will ask before talking about the military memorial complex is a fairy tale, but for me a fairy tale cemetery, a fairy tale cemetery is the principle of tako... value schizophrenia, yes, when opposite the dissidents, the graves of the dissidents stus lytvyn and tykhi, a cemetery, the burial of some kagebi generals, that is, it just sounds, well, like some kind of absurdity and sur, yes, when opposite the grave of mykolaychuk, very modest, stands such a snow-white marble figure of the executor or in ... performer kill the perpetrator of the murder of gongadza, that is , what to do with it when it is the central,

central cemetery, and on the central avenue, in fact the entire central avenue and all the most prestigious places, they are occupied, if not by kagabian generals and secretaries of the central committee of the communist party of ukraine, then with all due respect to football players now, and now there is a completely different value trend, so now they are football players and... there are people's deputies of the party of regions and so on, what to do with it? well, in such cases it is the best, since the issue of places of memory, and in places of burials, to be more precise, is even more complicated and delicate from the point of view of legislation, than even places of memory, the best way is a special program or efforts of the state to strengthen these loci associated with, for example, we are now discussing the restoration of the grave of lesya ukrinka, the same fairy tale.

will change, restore the alleys, highlight, that is, illuminate, modernize, put appropriate memorials there to hrushevsky, lesa and other figures, it will be this gesture that will change this symbolic space, but it is not only a good wish, it is a political understanding of this process, b , leadership to, for example, during the war, to say: we will allocate a certain amount of funds for this from the budget, because no one, well there, or plus the budget plus the patron, that is, it is a political responsibility, to say that it will be so, because it is right, and the third story is to allocate these funds , for years in the 90s, 2000s, 10s, everyone was just talking about the fact that culture is important, even now a lot of people say that culture is important, it is a strategic area, but as soon as it comes to budget allocations, so that i say that everything should be changed, but the state should show it show an example, she should say, here we have processed the top memorial, all local self-government bodies, business, such

people think, well, yes, this means it is important, because the state does not only talk, but does, then no one would do it, the only exception is yushchenko , and then only in projects related to the holodomor, and that is, under yushchenko - words stopped differing, cases ceased to differ in matters of memorialization, because the first phase of the memorial was built, they were made around the country, but this was only a drop in the ocean, this was only beginning. unfortunately, this was never systematic in the field of culture. and i would also comment on the schopenhauer quote with which you started this conversation. the fact is that this is the reason that a nation consists of dead heroes, but if a nation consists only of dead heroes, it turns into some kind of antique, not a living nation. what is important to us is a nation that remembers, honors and in a symbolic space records the importance as such beacons with... the light they send forward into the future, records these heroes, these

outstanding figures of the past, but makes them part of living life, living discussion , society, scientists, because if this does not happen, well, we will have beautiful folios and dead memorials that simply no one will go to, we need to figure out how to tie this bar in this way , which the heroes ask us and in this sense, and i want to continue your opinion. actually about the neglect of the graves, let's say, you said about lesya, there are many other graves, ukrainian writers, yes, repressed writers, historical figures who in very... i had a discussion with my polish colleagues, we are for something argued for some historical, some historical facts, and my polish colleague said: you just go and look at the grave of stus, in what form you have the grave of your national genius, and then i actually started thinking about

who should take care of the actual graves, right? if not everyone has a family there, or they can't, or as in the case of the ukrainian woman, there is no one, it's an institute of national memory, it's some, it's some city services, how should it work? legally, it now looks like this, if there is a cemetery such as a fairy tale, in what is the special status there, then the relevant services of this cemetery are municipal, by the way, it belongs to the city of kyiv, they are obliged to take care of it and... but it is one thing to take care of it in the sense of a couple of times a year with an old-school silver sign, and to update the inscription, and another the thing is to raise funds, launch public discussions in the process of attracting attention, for example, we met with representatives of the kyiv city state administration and the ministry of culture proactively, because there is an initiative person mariana

tomen from the ministry of culture, i like this topic i have been very happy since the time when we initiated the change of the inscription there to... and it is good that hanna starostenko from the kmda agreed, well , she treated it well, and now we have even found several patrons there from volyn who are ready to finance the project. because there you can't just come and make it beautiful, you have to make a project, it has to pass an examination, and this is an example of caring at the level, but it did not arise because there is some big government program, but it is caring citizens who use their duty communication as state service to do good deeds, and in essence it is what hlibovytskyi calls mastery of one's own state, and in fact, when we, they do not become something foreign, but become the norm, because that's what you should do, you should occupy your state and use it for of the common good of all members of the state , accordingly, this is such an option, but in a good way, it should be civic initiatives

of businesses that show an example, so we take care of this grave, ideally, in general, it should be a state register that... of the type of national foster care program memory, the final resting places of the most important figures in the history of ukraine, and this list should be formed and looked after. it seems to me that there is such a term , in modern legislation, people with special merits before the state, they have there, they have a whole procedure for free burial, there is the creation of some kind of memorial, but it should be, you know, no longer pro-party. new parties, new high-ranking officials there, namely about such people of the stus level, well, because with all due respect, none of the representatives there of the highest states, the highest officials of independent ukraine, well, there, with the rare exception of some super cool dissidents, who did for these founders of this republic, well, it does not reach the level of a blow ,

accordingly , the grave should be such that it was visible it was supposed to be a state program, but i assure you, as soon as we send, for example, from... such a program: the ministry of finance will tell us: additional expenditures of the state budget are not foreseen bye-bye, and it must be political will, it must be principled, because it has, for example, how our war is on the information front, for example, i often argue with pavlo kazarin, he says, there is no war in the cultural sphere, it is not that there is no information front, i do not agree here, there is an information front and a front in the cultural sphere, therefore that there are top platforms where we can win in the field of culture. and this is a war in the sphere of culture, we have had a war with russia for a long time, the same in information, and here, for example, every year we need to have a few million dollars in the budget for re-translations of such books as that of larisa yakubova, who considers this anatomy of racism, or elena styashkina, or the same snyder, translations into other languages, except english, there into chinese, indian, and so on, that is, hindu, and we

must have it, because if not us, then no one will will do, accordingly, this is a specific program, specific funds, this is... not such big money, that's how it should be, but the society should come to its deputies, which elections to choose them for jackets, you submitted, you submitted the state budget this point, or the institute of memory asked us why you did not support what you ran into there the committee is wearing a jacket until you knock out this item, but the majority of citizens are busy with other issues, other deputies are busy, and deputies are busy with other issues, we have to occupy this state at last, use it for the good of this same state, and with regard to the political will of the political class and and about... why we, as citizens, do not take the political class by the coattails and say whether you did it. i remember svitlana aleksievich's speech, when she received the nobel prize, she came here, the meeting. in seems, it was in the people of mohyla with the students, and she then said such a thing that the post-genocide nations, they, she, she said so that we very easily

step over our fallen, because there were so many of them, yes, there were so many millions of them, that we are used to , she spoke about the soviet people, yes, but now i am asking you about the post-genocide nation of ukrainians, is that not why we do not slander... our politicians, and why, and why, is that not why we are doing our own business, because we are a post-genocide nation, is it somehow related to the fact that we are not enough no do we honor heroes? i think there are at least three reasons, and maybe better experts than me, maybe more will be named, the first reason is that it is possible for us to realize how many such people there could be, that is, to even approach this topic, is not in the sense, that we are used to transgressing, or we are beginning to understand that if we... just touch this box , more, more, more will appear, and in the end we will have to realize how many such people lie all over the space of modern ukraine

and soviet, that is, this is a certain system of warning of fear, once, twice, after all you have to give, well, you have to admit that the 90s, it was a very similar time in economic terms, when people really survived, well , that is, families, good families, which should first of all... become the conscience of this nation, well were forced to sell pants in stadiums in order to survive, and accordingly , in such a situation, you have three children behind you, and the situation is that there is no pay for three months , now five months, and at this time you simply cannot, psychologically it is difficult for you to go and tell someone something about someone's graves, if your children are malnourished, that's the second reason, well and the third reason, this helplessness cultivated by the soviet system. she was focused on the fact that a person did not interfere in these matters, she could quietly go about her own business, that is, the space of civil responsibility of a soviet person had

to end with her door, the door of her maxim apartment, well, the state is a foreign one, we could not conquer a foreign state, it even sounds abstract, the entrance is someone else's, that's why there is always no care, and only now, when we gradually created osb, created some forms, when we built a little differently. relationship with private property, we began to expand a little, then together with our neighbors we cleaned the entrance, then we began to plant quince flowers around apartment buildings, then decentralization, we began to feel the community there, for example , go to vapishny, feel how the community works, there well, besides the fact that there is a wonderful head who is working on it, but it is being built little by little, you understand, this is mine, this is ours, this is common, this and accordingly , until this was not there, these are some other people's graves, of someone else's family, and since... my limit is the door, the limit of the safe space, the limit of where i am i know for sure that i can influence and i won't get anything for it, it's my door, my apartments and sometimes it's not always, then it's not like that, that is, these three

factors will definitely influence, and understanding this, working with it, changing little by little concrete things examples that the state should encourage, it cannot do everything , the state will never do it, no state will ever have enough money for this, but it should set an example, say, do it this way, i bless it, i will support it, but it won't do, a closed circle until... until we as citizens start talking about it to demand, representatives of the state authorities, we ourselves, these are the same, like me, for example, in 2019 i was not a representative of the authority, i went to this competition on my own and got into this system, and i understand, but this is the right way , i will cross myself, i will resign, someone next has to come and say yes, friends, not to myself, not to my group of people, my community or my family, i will do something there, for all of us, that is, to work on all of us, this is the only way we will master this state, change this approach, and finally in us this list of memory locations will appear, for which we are responsible all together and each of us fundamentally.

thank you, now, as promised, we will talk about ukrainian arlington itself, about why the discussion of finding a place, adopting a law on a national memorial tsvin has been going on for so long. or the cemetery where we now bury our soldiers. in the 22nd year, a bill was passed on the creation of this national memorial military cemetery. why is it so difficult to make this decision and it takes so long? so, i'll start with background so that nothing falls out, because it is important for the logic of understanding. the project of the cemetery arose, the very first project, arose from the times of yanukovych, some gathered. the generals are almost incompetent, if you want to see the year 2011, i remember, it is azarov , maybe because somewhere in russia they built the military and these old well-deserved, well-deserved veterans, including

the soviet ones. system, they wanted to have a good place for themselves as well, but the project did not take off, thank god, but then the government issued an order, or in the 15th or 16th, i already i also forgot that the institute of national remembrance developed the project, the institute of national remembrance developed this project back then in the 16th or 17th, there were consultations, the project of the military memorial cemetery and, in general, this logic that i started with, this three-stage, it arose in the institute precisely on the 15th and 16th, and in the very first consultations with the state geocadaster , a specific plot of land for this cemetery arose, because a state land was needed and b- a lot of state land, several hundred hectares, because all understood that it was supposed to be arlington, that it was 300 plus acres, and that it wasn't there may be some piglet somewhere on the bran in kyiv, it must be fundamental, it is a space of memory for centuries, at the time no one thought about a full-scale war, but even then they thought that it should be such a cemetery, and accordingly the only

what a suitable plot was, he said at the time... i’m sorry poshtova, but now it’s the gatnyan community and even then this plot, which in the end is now already approved, was the position and the institute itself offered it back then, near the southern cemetery, it’s right next to the plot with southern cemetery, which is a plus, because the road to odesa is a large highway that allows many people to conveniently drive up, b) there is already a cemetery nearby, accordingly there are sanitary facilities in the sanitary zone, and plus there is a wooded area there, but it has been illegally cut down for decades. and this kind of management , there are huge cultivated massifs, and accordingly , it will even suffer, well, that is, the forest, this forest plantation will suffer almost no less than in some other place, well, and arlington, if we look, it is an area interspersed with trees, accordingly so it arose, then in on the 22nd, then the institute developed a law on cemeteries together with the ministry of defense, the ministry of veterans and for years i got to visit all these problem groups, pavlo podabet, who was responsible for this at our institute, simply did not

get out. from the committees, from the ministry of defense, they agreed, one of the principle points was not to hide kgbists, any full-fledged knights there, the order of lenin and so on, and this with a lot of blood, but we managed to agree on everything so that it would be, well, really people , who fought for independence for ukraine, and we are in this were chosen, it should be a state cemetery with a memorial, with appropriate infrastructure and so on, and the law is adopted, and the law, unfortunately, was adopted only in the 22nd, already after the start of a full-scale war, but the struggle itself, the struggle... the struggle for this law stretched for years, for years, i think, if it weren't for the war, we would still be investigating for this law, there was again a part of the accountants who are always present in any government, they say it 's expensive, it's billions, well, it's billions, respectively, the 22nd year in a row, and here it began, i call it vekhanalia, ideas began to flow, because the law does not fix the place, the law of the 22nd fixes the cemetery doesn't fix the place, and here they start: let's build on lysiya gora, let's build in babi

yar. let's give the singing field and we just we at the institute looked at all this with such eyes, we didn't have time to comment that it's just first read the law, there is a list of objects such that there is a need for space, accordingly all these proposals, and the families of the victims hear this story and think that it would really be nice to be in the center, in the center kyiv, where it is easy to get there, but then they start to face questions, elementary questions, if we know. somewhere in the center of kyiv 100 + ha for such a cemetery, no, because there is no 100 + ha in the center of kyiv, and if we take some of those locations and one of these, i consider provocative ideas, it was to make this cemetery in the side yard, and it was probably the last cramp, because many families are very strongly, well, for this, for this, for this vacation , for the sideline, for the sideline, of the families of the fallen, and why? and because they were told that it is almost,

almost in kyiv, that... there is a lot of space, but they are not they said one very important thing, that this is a place of memory, in which, unfortunately, in this forest , most likely, with a very high probability , there will be mass burials from the time of stalin's repressions. and then another trigger was turned on, that most of our people are not aware and do not realize this problem, that is, even some high-ranking officials, i come, i remember very well, i talk to the architect, and the architect says, i ask them, come on... let's build this one, well, they say to him, build it in the side room, he says, well, this, this same place, well, maybe there it's risky, it's there, well, mass, if there's no mass burial, we'll stop this construction, we have to excavate, do it, and they say to him , no, let's come up with something, he says okay, let's go, why not in babi yar, he is such a no-no, well, you can't use a ravine as a woman, it's a place of memory, that is, a bullpen, even at the level of people , was not fixed as such a place of memory where you can't touch and