reasonable, secondly false, thirdly, hopeless, so i think that logic political for itself, but not political for us, probably prevailed here. do you even understand why the anti-corruption fund, even after the murder of alexei navalny, continues to provide vladimir putin with a turnout in the presidential elections, continues to call on people to vote, to vote for anyone but putin, to do something with the ballots, but by and large it's... turnout, that's all it takes, so what's the logic? mr. vitaly, well, you have lived and worked in russia for many, many years, i think that you know very well what russian society is like, what the russian so-called opposition is, the so-called liberal opposition, and we will choose any other words, in fact, it is a fiction, it is something that cannot be called even close to what we understand in the context of liberal, and even more so, democracy. this is the service of the regime,

well, at least it is clear to me, even these people who are abroad, who want to destroy, you know, when i listened to someone who wants to destroy, well, for example, viktor shenderovych, with his fantastic formula that we are with the ukrainians only until the first turn, well, why, because they are nazis, then i understood that, excuse me, if this is the flagship of the russian liberal opposition, well, then we he is really not on the road, and that's why you know, i think that when we say there that there are protests and so on, listen, big moscow is 21 million inhabitants in my opinion, to say goodbye to the leader of the opposition came for the maximum... estimates of 12,00 people, well

in general, i think that if you take into account every day, then 50, well, well, 50, well, 50, well, what can 50,000 people do in parts, if there are auto guards, there is a rosguard, there is an fsb and so on and so forth, well nothing, well, they didn't want anything, they just wanted to lay flowers, it's a whole story, and it's a protest, and it's what can push the putin regime to retreat, it's them, i know, when was that day... the funeral i i watched all the russian, well, these independent western tv channels, and i saw this stagnation, well, of course, well, we can’t, well, of course it’s difficult for us, well of course, well, we can’t think about the fact that there might be 800 or thousands or a million and so on and so forth on the street, and that they think that with flowers they will change putin’s regime, they think that in this way someone is with them will count, this is...

the position, and where are the molotov cocktails, and where is the resistance, when, if you remember our, our case, i remember we were standing near the red building of the university, and then, and on the sides of shevchenko boulevard, i i saw with my own eyes, there were policemen when a group of people crossed somewhere probably in the first 100 00, the policemen disappeared. will talk about the fact that yulia navalnaya will become the face of the russian opposition, sitting in europe and not having any real influence on the situation in russia, well, then this is a repetition of everything that we have already seen in the last 30 years, well, you understand, i i asked about her, because it is one thing to have a customs official shondarovych chikov who write something on facebook or speak at a creative dinner somewhere, and on the other hand , a person who speaks in the european parliament is a different weight, at least for western society, when such a person says: go to the elections, it was the same all

the time, we talked all the time about the so-called intelligent voting, vote for the communists, but not for united russia, i could never understand this and hoped that it will end, i will honestly tell you that this moment, well, will be some kind of rubicon, no, it cannot be, mr. welcome to the rubicon, because there is no understanding of what needs to be done and and and whether it is necessary to do, because they think something that their democracy will come at... ukrainian bayonets, that the ukrainian armed forces will destroy the putin regime, and then they will come to the ready and say, yes, no, we and the ukrainians are close, that is, this is the essence of russian pseudo-liberal or liberal democracy and the so-called opposition, there is no such thing, well, then the question arises, how can internal political processes develop in a country where there is no alternative to procrastination and where there is indifference, by the way, i will tell you that i remember that in my last years... work in russia, i was always

wondering what kind of events were held there these monthly demonstrations in support of freedom the words were already in the 29th article or 28th of the constitution and they were collected there. these people, who were very few , were mostly, you know, intelligent women of balzac's age, just who were faithful to these ideals, they came, and they were beaten there or near this tchaikovsky hall or there on pushkin square, beaten by policemen, simply beaten , it is absolutely not clear why, because these women are no threat to the regime, they were just ordinary not young women, and people passed by many people, there was none. it's not even about politics, but think about it well, it could be your grandmother, she could be beaten like that, big boys, you know, such as the berkut residents, actually russian, and then the real berkov residents, if they moved there, also took part in it, well, i watched it, and i there was such a feeling of complete political impasse, i did not understand what i was doing in such a country, what i could

tell the ukrainian about, one of your colleagues, i think, very aptly called it a corralled democracy, that is, when the protesters were actually... driven into such to the troops when they passed, well remember, everyone in the marshy square and so on , they passed through the frame, they were checked, they, they went into a certain covered piece of some square there and so on, and they actively rallied there, this is a moscow-style rally, i’ll tell you a secret, that’s how it was , it was during the time of perestroika, in the 1990s and 1980s i went to opposition rallies with a journalist's license. and i was always interested in how people pass, i don’t understand it, because i always had it without an id, but these people collected how they got there then, they just showed their passport, they said that they have it, that i am ivan ivanovych ivanov, please put me on the fsb list, and yes, yes, or the kgb and the like, and they passed,

this, this is the resistance in russian, you understand, and we want , for something to change there, well , it cannot change there, because there is the mentality, i repeat once again, the mentality of slaves who... well, remember, well, mr. vitaly, you know the russian classic, saldykov shchedrin, this famous phrase of his about that, the russians like to rebel, they will kneel in front of the lord's house and rebel, they know the position that they are rebelling, but they are standing, that’s it, that’s the russian, the russian rebellion, you see, many ukrainians believe in the change of the russian regime, as in a real such guaranteed end to the war, i also, to be honest... think that putin’s regime is not eternal, he will fall , without a doubt, he will fall due to the fact that the ukrainian army will liberate crimea and they will be forced to withdraw from crimea, after that, it seems to me, there will be a very serious internal, well, such

irritation in the russian political leadership, when the tsar turns out not to be real, when scrap, one of putin's key scraps and the whole regime will fall. then an absolutely logical question will arise from the point of view of the slaves that the tsar is not real, he must be changed, and the people around will take advantage of this and will say that guys, well, let's maybe surrender this crazy inadequate man, let's say that he is us kept him hostage, let's hand him over, at one time they gave him away from milosevic, they gave him away, but there was a democratic revolution there, i'm sorry, it's not some group of associates of milos, i came to him and said i'm leaving, there might be someone like that here, a small medushobojchik, a small something on they gave me a sample of such a little guy and everything, and we are negotiating with the party, well, why do i need alisher usmanov, when i want to ride on my three-meter

yacht, that’s all the problems, well, i want to live a little longer, and in i also have a son and a daughter and 50 grandchildren, do not exaggerate the influence of these people after. for how they voluntarily surrendered power to the fsb. well, you see, your own vest, as they say, is closer to the body, so i think that if it starts seriously, and now you see what it comes to, they begin to take away from the old, and to pass it on to the new ones, and it’s already quite painful, well, we can still talk about some of comrade putin’s bragging about the great russia over there, who founded whom 100 years ago, it’s such a thing, but when you... they take away your blood and honestly stolen in the 90s, it is no longer up to, not up to theory, here already such a harsh, bloody practice. i 'm interested in, you know, another russian topic that 's been heavily discussed in the western media in the last few days, i would say, in connection with this

story with the uh, real threat from russia to use tactical nuclear weapons in 2022, there have already been several publications, his... that it was not just there an analysis of the situation, but the intelligence that they received in the white house, once again they say that they are there , to put it mildly, i don't i know how to say it, well , it is definitely because if people believe... that they can use nuclear weapons for some kind of military tactical success, then this does not speak of the adequacy of such a leadership, but we know that, less than that, less however, there i was today reading a new york times quote by general milley, the famous to us, the former head of the committee of the chiefs of staff of the american army, says that there is such a nuclear paradox, the greater the successes of the ukrainian army, the greater the threat of the use of nuclear weapons by russia. it is obvious that this is what advisers, including the military, told president biden in 2022, and this is

an important point, because if this is what the west thinks, then the question arises about the pace of the supply of weapons, because the readiness to intensify aid to ukraine, regarding precisely her some kind of victorious actions, in relation to russia, before the liberation of crimea, all this is included in this one formula, it's dangerous, it's dangerous , right, but it's artificial and it's not... uh , it's unrealistic from the point of view that for some reason in the west they don't want to understand that it's just nuclear blackmail, and that's the only argument, the only trump card , which as of today remains with the putin regime, well, look, there is no other option than to shout every day on television that today we will destroy berlin, tomorrow we will destroy paris, then we will destroy london there and so on and so forth, that is, that , which... is used in russian, well, not only propaganda, but by the russian authorities to the maximum, and we must

understand this perfectly and explain to our western partners that guys, well, with all the madness, as you have shown, the corresponding corresponding, so to speak, level of this idiocy, well, no one wants to go to the other world very quickly, because it is automatic, and you know, well, what it says... that the americans are preparing a conventional response to this conditional nuclear blackmail, a potential nuclear strike, well, you and i are not military experts, but i know many people who are in this they understand each other much better than i do they say that some types of conventional weapons are not much different from nuclear weapons in terms of their destructive consequences, well, by the way , we know everything from the attack on khakhovsky hess, well , absolutely, absolutely, and believe me, well... this is in fact, well the fact that i am forced, you know, to listen to these

misfits and read what they write, especially i like to read medvedev, i just when i see his next post, well, i, i have an internal, you know, rise, i think, so , well, the madhouse is still working, thank god, so everything, everything is fine, i think medvedev is too, when he reads himself , he is in the same state, because i still don’t think that he writes it, but, as strange as it sounds, you may have the same emotions, well... he’s just responsible for these texts, oh no , but seriously speaking, what should we do with this thesis, how should we convince the west that it cannot live in this formula? that's the question , that's absolutely, you're right, mr. vitaly, that 's the question, what arguments should we find in order to explain, and you know, i think one of the arguments is that, well, how many red ones. .. there were already lines crossed out by russia, kherson

is ours and donetsk is ours and luhansk is ours and all these regions are also ours and so on and so forth and zaporizhia has been ours for a long time, but it is not ours and nothing is happening and this means that there is no such red line that which will be for the russians the really red one that will be followed by tactical nuclear weapons again what is a tactical nuclear weapon weapon? this is success in a limited area of ​​the front in a very limited area of ​​the front, that is, the risks are colossal, and the effect is, well, not zero, but not the kind that can be to relate singing to what you risk, then the question is again, well, despite all the inadequacy, well, after all, there are people around who still understand a little more deeply, it seems to me that this is a historical image of herosim, because it seems that when the americans were for... nuclear weapons of the nagasaki anti-racism, japan surrendered, but japan surrendered not because there were nuclear

weapons, because the conditions were met, of course, and they do not want to understand that even under such circumstances, ukraine did not it seems obvious, and i think that this one is completely inadequate, the inappropriate quote of the pontiff about the white flag, to which i think everyone reacted, says that, sorry, there will be no white flags, ugh. i understand that the pope, he is just now, no matter how strange it sounds, a reflection of the political sentiments of the global south, where he basically came from, because we perceive him as the crimean pope, but he is argentine, yes, left-wing, at the same time , well, let's say so, left-oriented, to the extent that the argentine church was left-oriented during his time, well, in principle, you can say that, but in any case, he is much more understandable to him as a person, as a politician, if we don’t talk about him, we don’t talk about him as the head of the church, we talk about the head of the state, erdoğan’s theses, sizenpin’s theses, he

understands them better and operates on them , it is not even a question of russian influence, it is a question of the people among whom he feels himself. yours , but you know, mr. vitaly, what is interesting is, have we heard the transcript of the theses of erdogan, sinzipin, there and all the other comrades who say that let's go to the negotiating table, no, and why? and because they are afraid to put on the table what they really think, because it will immediately be thrown in the trash, even without a preliminary discussion, and i think that this is what papa said that you need, that it is better now come to an agreement, because it will be worse later. that this is what they could say, er, so you know, at all negotiations, well , actually, it begins with the fact that certain e positions, initial positions, where you start, what you want , well, there is no chinese peace formula here, so what they're about nothing, they're about slogans, they're not about specifics, recently there was information about what

erdoğan wants to achieve, well, if you believe it, because now you can't believe anything. er, to no one and nothing, then absolutely russian positions are actually repeated there, that is why he is silent, he speaks theoretically, let’s sit down, what to sit down with, what to talk about, how to talk, with whom to talk and so on, no, here therefore, these are more and more political games, so to speak, this is the need to show oneself as a peacemaker, this playing for the public, these are domestic political pluses and minuses and so on, this is not about ukraine, that china has specific requirements. china talked about the need to remove sanctions from its companies, which now have problems with supplying russia with products, they talked about this in europe. china demands that the west does not supply weapons to ukraine, china has certain proposals that are absolutely specific, they are just this this this this way, but let's understand that they should also

then clearly say what they offer in exchange for this, and about this there is no language with... general the phrase about the recognition of territorial integrity , it hangs in the air, if they are not supported by some concrete proposals and, most importantly, concrete steps, that is why it is once again playing for oneself , to think about one's interests, but clearly not about non-ukrainian ones, but again , when we talk about the alternative path proposed by the president of ukraine, the peace formula, the international peace summit in switzerland, the heads of state come there, i think that they are the ones who come there. heads of states who agree will agree with this formula, with the restoration of the borders of ukraine , with the restoration of international law, in the end , they agreed here already at a high level, and how does this contribute to real negotiations at all , when russia ignores not only us, it also ignores the international community, no, russia already declared, you must have heard the statement of this

minister of lies, now i only call him lavova, about the fact that they want to put us in front of the dock. by that fact and write an ultimatum to us, that is, look, everyone gathered, wrote down what needs to be done, and then, they say, we are not invited, and then they will bring us to the second summit and say, please, you have to do this, they say we will not do such a thing, well, well, this is his position, we will leave it behind brackets and so on, but if these theses are again quite general, quite well... optical and so on, will be correctly deciphered and agreed by most countries, then this will definitely create colossal problems for russia, because if, say, it can then be put on the resolution of the general assembly, what will be signed and voted for there, say one and a half hundred countries, then this is the same thing that

will hit russia very hard, it will not give practical results, of course, but in the political... context, in the context, by the way, of the same lawsuits against russia, compensation for damages caused there and so on and so on and so on, it can play a very positive role, and russia will have nothing to say, because if it really is the vast majority of countries in the world, then how, what arguments should be given to stop it, and there are none, and what do you think happened to president macron and at the same time as chancellor scholz, president macron , who has always been such a supporter of diplomacy, conversations, and dialogue, is now saying that he is ready to even see troops on the territory of ukraine in the future, and chancellor scholz, who until recently was one of the main, i would say, such supporters of increasing the supply of arms. now he is trying to behave more than cautiously and it seems to me that this is a story not only about the tauris, what has changed, no, no, well, here i think that the main point is still in the german

position, not even in the german position, in the positions of scholz himself, these are cetaurus , look, germany is the second supplier of weapons to ukraine, so this is very good, and it started with helmets and first-aid kits, ends with extremely important, here you know, i think... in relation to taurus, it is ee ot that , well, i would say, that splinter that sits in the heads of all germans, starting with the second, after the end of the second world war. a german soldier must no longer shoot, kill there and so on and so forth. if a german officer sits and directs the taurus to the conditional kaluga there or whatever and so further, this means for scholz that this german officer is participating. in the war, for him it is the same barrier, yes, through which he cannot stop, so here i think, here it is purely psychological, but i think they will push. as for macron, well, remember how

he received putin the first time he came to france, how he publicly excoriated him there at a press conference and so on and so forth, but the truth is, then a certain downward spiral went, you know, as from the mountain, now again climbing the mountain. i mean, i think it's an awakening, mr. vitaly, this is the awakening of many european politicians who have realized that if comrade trump wins and plans to change the paradigm of transatlantic relations, then they will have to think about their own security independently, and how to think independently, if not to help ukraine, which is really standing today, well, on the way of this horde. ago. so again, it's not because macron or anyone else loves ukraine very much, they just understand that if we fall, then, then everything else falls, here you want it, you don't want it, but you need to help, and there is no such thing

impression that, after all, there is some concrete information about the real intentions, which changed this position, the real intentions of russia in relation to europe, in relation to the european countries of nato, that 's how they talk about it every day, they talk about what, what they don't like... not only don't like what is done in the west, but they define it as their, so to speak , truly existential enemy, i constantly read what zakharova writes, listen, well, i don't know, i'll have to somewhere to ask for some extra portion of milk, because there is kefir, because i hope it's not vologdasky, because this, because it's on the verge of really, well, madness. therefore, well, therefore, therefore, i think that the embassies of these countries and in the capitals of these countries are reading this as well, and they are beginning to understand that, well, behind

all this external madness is really this hatred that is coming out now, well, this like the finns and sweden, who read all this , saw and decided that neutrality was ending, you know, and that's all, well, well, and rightly so, and at the same time, well, let's do the same, you were at the beginning of the 90s and in moscow and... are these bridges from america to moscow, to leningrad , just to be brought, yes, brought , so that, so that they, so that they would not die of hunger, of course, today someone in moscow is talking about this, no, the damned americans who always thought like us kill, destroy, starve and so on, so it was exactly the same with herbert hoover's company. history, therefore, understanding all these things and putting them in a kind of pile, well

, in my opinion, it seems so to me, i want to believe in it, a certain process of getting out of the warm bath in which the event was 30 years, he finally begins to understand that they are dealing with a monster, with a devil, and with a dia... well, somehow kissing is dangerous, and not slowly it all happens, slowly, slowly, but you know, well, what happens when we talked 5-7 years ago to some of our western egg-headed comrades and showed them what is happening and what will happen, they said no, no, you also have exactly the same thing, now it is very nice to communicate and remind them, they say: well you see, you were right, well, we see, we saw this beautiful the scene where the german delegation laughed at president trump telling them that if you build nord stream, you 're going to have serious energy problems, by

the way. as an experienced businessman, he just spoke not even as a politician, as a person who can simply add 10 +10 and knows that there will be 20, the whole german political elite thought that there will be 25, and that was amazing, absolutely, because to end our conversation, is it possible to be optimistic about this western support in the future? think so, i think so, for all that it is it's not easy, i think that american aid will be, you see, it will be delayed... but it cannot not be, because otherwise the republicans, as they say, will pressurize themselves, not for better, for worse. europe is waking up, albeit slowly , but it is moving, i think, in the right direction, and this direction, you see, the czech president suddenly once and 800 thousand shells are somewhere, i think that much more can be found, so that's all, that's all , it's all

fine, but the only thing... the moment is long, and long means that we pay, unfortunately, blood, well, in principle, we can say that even without american help , the europeans still try to find their own ways to participate in this process, absolutely, and we, mr. vitaly, with the same europeans and americans should do the same thinking about what we can do for ourselves is also very, very much, there are positive changes, it's very good, we just need to... as it is now fashionable to say scale these things and make instead of a million and drone drones 2 million instead of 2 million 3 million and so on and so on that is that's all, well, figuratively speaking, it's called the transfer of the economy to military rails by and large, by and large, so it 's a difficult story, but you see, unlike russia, where it will be followed by an unconditional economic collapse, we will have the possibility of help from

the west when there is money, when there is and... opportunities and when there is a desire, so you know, from a strategic point of view, i will tell you honestly, putin did the most for the collapse of russia, probably the most of all, of all those political figures who were in russia in the last 30 years old, i think that we him once, well, in the benches, of course, but thank you that he destroyed this half-empire to the end, thought that he would strengthen it, in fact he will bury it and we will be his in this plan. mention and maybe even talk about the fact that he contributed to this topic as much as possible. i would like to thank volodymyr agrysk, diplomat, minister of affairs of ukraine in 2007-2009, head of the russian research center, who was on our air today. thank you, mr. volodymyr, and thank you, dear viewers, for being with us in the politclub program on the espresso tv channel, which was conducted for you by vitaly portnikov, who

this is a political club, and what a program i conducted, that 's it... and i wish you all the best, victory and peace, good luck! this is about politics, about the world, maria gurska and pavel koval. as always, we recap the week's events and do so across multiple platforms. pavel koval's youtube channel gives this conversation in polish, the espresso tv channel shows it in ukraine. we start today with world politics, we will talk about the events that are unfolding and still ahead this year in the united states. super tuesday took place this week, which has definitely put america and the world in front of the fact that the president is in office two candidates are running in the usa.