a logic political for itself, but not political for us, prevailed. do you even understand the wonder of the anti-corruption fund, even after the murder of alexei navalny , it continues to provide vladimir putin with a turnout in the presidential elections of the country, continues to call on people to go vote, to vote for anyone but putin, to do something with the ballots, but by and large the bill is the turnout, that's all that's needed, so what's the logic? mr. vitaly, well, you have lived and worked. in russia for many, many years, i think you you know very well what russian society is, what the russian so-called opposition is, the so-called liberal opposition, and we will choose any other words, in fact it is a fiction, it is something that, well , is even close to what we understand in the context you can't be liberal, let alone democracy, it's serving the regime.

well, at least it is clear to me, even those people who are abroad, who want to destroy, you know, when i listened to someone who wants to destroy, well, for example, viktor shenderovych, with his fantastic formula, that we ukrainians only until the first turn, and why, because they are nazis, i understood that, excuse me, if this is the flagship of the russian liberal opposition, well... then he and i are really not on the same path, and that's why, you know, i think that when we say there that there are protests and so on, listen, uh, big moscow is 21, in my opinion, million inhabitants, according to the maximum estimates, 12,00 people came to say goodbye to the leader of the opposition. well, in general, i think that every day is taken to... well, 50, well, 50, well, what can it do

in parts of 50,000 people, if there are motor vehicles, the rosguard is standing, the fsb is standing there, etc. what can push the putin regime to retreat is them, i know, when this funeral day was, i watched all the russian, well, these independent... western tv channels and saw this stupid thing: of course, we can't, of course it's hard for us, of course, but we can't think about what might go out on the streets for 800 or so a thousand or a million and so on and so on, and what do they think that they will change putin's regime with flowers, they think that in this way someone will reckon with them, this is the opposition, but where are the molotov cocktails, and where are the sprots? when you remember our case,

i remember we were standing near the red building of the university, and then, and on the sides of shevchenko boulevard, i saw with my own eyes, there were policemen, when a group of people crossed somewhere, probably in the first 100 thousand , policemen disappeared when there were 300 00 of them and it moved everything down, well... even in the turnstiles there was no one at a distance of a kilometer, you understand, when a powerful mass of people gathers, the government feels it, it, it disappears, disappears, those who are ready to hit people on the head disappear, who come and lay flowers, so there is no protest, and that's why , you know, even though some people say that you can't call the russian population slave, it's so slave, well, if you yourself. answer

this question about if there are 50, 12 thousand people in one day, then they definitely feel their helplessness, right? of course, of course that's why you understand when they say that there is an opposition in russia, and by the way, now, well , excuse me, our western partners are beginning to believe in the same fairy tale that they will now once again tell themselves that yulia navalnaya will become the face the russian opposition. sitting in europe and not having any real influence on the situation in russia, well, then this is a repetition of everything that we have already seen in the last 30 years, well , you understand, that is why i asked about it, because one thing there is conditional shandarovich chikov, who write something on facebook or speak somewhere creative dinner, and on the other hand , a person speaking in the european parliament is a different weight, at least for western society, when such a person says go to the elections, it has been like that all along, we have always talked about the so-called intelligent voice. vote for

the communists, but not for united russia, i could never understand this and hoped that it would end, i will tell you honestly that this moment, well, will be some kind of rubicon, no, it cannot be, paneta. rubicon, because there is no understanding of what needs to be done and and and whether it is necessary to do something, because they think something, that their democracy will come at ukrainian bayonets, that the ukrainian armed forces will destroy putin's regime, and then they will come on the spot and say, yes, no, we are with the ukrainians until the turn, that is, this is the essence of the russian pseudo-liberal or liberal democracy. and the so-called opposition, there is none there, well , then the question arises, how can internal political processes develop in a country where there is essentially no alternative and where there is indifference, by the way, i will tell you that i remember that in during the last years of my work in russia , all the time, on which date were these monthly

demonstrations held there in support of freedom of speech, by the 29th or 28th article of the constitution, and there were very few people gathering there, mostly you know, intelligent women of zakovsky's age, simply who were faithful to these ideals, they came, and they were beaten, beaten by policemen, just beaten, there or near this tchaikovsky hall, or there on pushkin square , it is absolutely not clear why, because these women no threat to the regime, it's simple there were ordinary not young women, and people passed by a lot of people, and there was no reaction, there was no reaction, it's not even about politics, but think about it, it could be your grandmother, she could be beaten like that. the same guys, you know, berkut people , in fact, russian-type, and then the real berkut people, when they moved there, also took part in it, well, i looked at it, and i had this feeling of complete political impasse, i didn’t understand , what i am doing in such a country, what i can tell the ukrainian about, one, one yours colleague, i think, very aptly called

it corral democracy, that is, when the protesters were actually herded into such corrals, when they went through, well , remember ... all the swamp square and so on, they went through the frame, they were checked, they, they entered in a certain, enclosed piece of some square and so on, and there was an active rally there, this is a moscow-style rally, i'll tell you a secret, it was like that, it was like that in the times of perestroika, in the 90s, 80s, i went to opposition rallies on a journalist's certificate, and i've always been interested in how people walk, i don't understand it, because i've always had it.' identity cards, these people collected how they got there, i don't know , they just showed their passports, said that they have them, that i am ivan ivanovych ivanov, please put me on the list of the fsb or the kgb and the like. and they passed, this, this is the russian opposition, you see, and we want

something to change there, well, it cannot change there, because there is a mentality, i will repeat it again, the mentality of slaves, who, well, remember, well, mr. vitali, you know the russian classics, soldykov shchedrin. this well-known phrase of his about the fact that russians like to riot, they will kneel in front of the lord's house and riot, they know the position of the rioters, but they stand here, this is the russian russian rebellion, you see, many ukrainians believe in the change of the russian regime as a real one such a guaranteed end to the war, i also honestly think that putin's regime is not eternal, it will fall without su'. it will fall due to the fact that the ukrainian army will liberate crimea and they will be forced to leave crimea to leave, after that, it seems to me, there will be a very serious internal, well, such rift in the russian political leadership, when the tsar turns out not to be real,

when the scrap, one of the key scraps of putin and the entire regime, will fall, then the absolutely logical question will arise from the point of view of the slaves, that the tsar is not real, he must be... changed, and the people around him will take advantage of this , and they will say that guys, well, let's maybe hand over this crazy, inadequate man, let's say that he held us hostage, let's put him in a gaggle, in due time they gave the same miloshovich in the distance, but was there a democratic revolution, i apologize, it 's not, no, some group of associates of milosha came to him and said, "i'm going gaga, but there may be some kind of little internecine fighter, a little something like that." they gave it to me like this and everything, and we are negotiating with the west, well, why do i need alisher usmanov, when i want to ride on my three-meter yacht, that 's all the problems, well, i want

to live a little longer, and i have i also have a son, a daughter and 50 grandchildren, do not exaggerate the influence of these people after they voluntarily surrendered power to the fsb? well, you see, your own... well , as they say, a vest is closer to the body, so i think that if it starts seriously, and now you see what it comes to, they start taking it from the old ones and handing it to the new ones . and this is already quite painful, well, we can still talk about some of comrade putin’s bragging about the great russia, who founded who a thousand years ago, it’s such a thing, but when they take away from you what was bloody and honestly stolen in the 90s, then it's not up to theory here, there is already such a harsh, bloody practice here, i am interested, you know, in another russian topic, which is now being seriously discussed by the western media, in recent days. i would say, in connection with this story with er, a real threat from russia

to use tactical nuclear weapons in 2022 . there have already been several publications that say that it was not just an analysis of the situation there, but the intelligence received from the white house, once again they say that they are there, to put it mildly, i don't know how to say it, well it definitely because if people believe that they can use nuclear weapons for some kind of military tact... success, then this does not speak of the adequacy of such leadership, but we know that, less so, less so, today i read a new york times quote by general milli, we know the former head of the committee of the chiefs of staff of the american army, who says that there is such a nuclear paradox, the greater the successes of the ukrainian army, the greater the threat of the use of nuclear weapons by russia, and it is obvious that this is what advisers, including the military spoke to the president biden in 2022, and this is an important point , because if the west thinks like this, then

the question arises of the pace of arms supply, because the readiness to intensify aid to ukraine, in relation to some of its victorious actions, in relation to russia, that is, the release of crimea, all this is invested in this formula, it is dangerous, it is dangerous, right, but it is artificial and it is not, unrealistic from the point of view that for some reason in the west. they do not want to understand that this is just nuclear blackmail, and this is the only argument, the only trump card, which as of today remains with the putin regime, well look, there is no other way but to shout every day on television that today we will destroy berlin, tomorrow we will destroy paris, then we will destroy london there and so on and so on, that is, this is what is used by russia, not only propaganda, but. .. by what power to the maximum, and we must understand this perfectly and explain to our western partners that

guys, well, with all the madness, as you have shown to the appropriate, appropriate, so to speak, level of this idiocy, well, no one wants to go to the other world very quickly, because it is automatic, and you know, well, what they said there, that the americans are on this conditional nuclear blackmail, nuclear potential. are preparing a conventional response, well, you and i are not military experts, but i know many people who understand this much better than i do, they say that some types of conventional weapons are not much different from nuclear weapons in terms of their destructive consequences, well, we we know these things when we hit khakhovsky hess, well, absolutely exactly, absolutely exactly, and believe me, well, it's real, well, that's what i'm forced to know and listen to. these inadequate to read what they write , especially i like to read medvedev, i just

when i see his next post, well, i , i am inside me, you know, a rise, i think, well , the madhouse is still working, thank god, so everything is fine, i think that medvedev is also in the same state when he reads himself, because i don’t think that he writes it, you can have, as strange as it sounds, the same emotions, but he is simply responsible for these texts, and you don't, but if... seriously speaking, what should we do with this thesis, how should we convince the west that it cannot live in this formula? this question, this is absolutely, you are right, mr. vitaly, this is the question, what arguments do we have to find in order to explain, and you know, i think one of the arguments is that, well, how many red lines have already been drawn by russia, kherson is ours there and... luhansk is ours and all these regions are also ours and so on and so forth and

zaporizhzhia has long been ours but it is not ours and nothing is happening and this means that there is no such red which line will be for the russians that really red one that will be followed by tactical nuclear weapons, again, what are tactical nuclear weapons, a weapon is a success on it in a limited area of ​​the front on a very limited one. that is, the risks are colossal, and the effect, well, well, not zero, but, but not such that you can sing, correlate with what you... forge, then the question, again, well, with all the inadequacy, well, still yes, there are people around who still understand a little more deeply, it seems to me that this is a historical image of hiroshima, because it seems that when the americans used nuclear weapons against hiroshima and nagasaki, japan surrendered , japan surrendered not because there were nuclear weapons, but because the conditions were right, of course, and they don't want to understand that

even under such circumstances ukraine will not surrender, that's obvious, and i think that this one is completely inappropriate... inappropriate quote of the pontiff about the white flag, to which i think everyone reacted, saying that, well, sorry, there will be no white flags, well, i understand that the pope, he is just now, it is not strangely, it sounds like a reflection of the political mood of the global south, where he is basically from came out, because we perceive him as a crimean buffoon, but he is an argentine politician with a huge experience, a left-wing one at the same time, well, let's say, left-oriented. how left-oriented the argentine church was during his time, well, in principle, you can say that, but in any case, he is much more understandable as a person, as a politician, if we do not talk about, we do not talk about him as the head of the church, we we are talking about the head of state, erdoğan's theses, sizenfin's theses, he understands them better and operates on them, it is not even a question of russian

influence, this is a question of the people among whom he feels his own, but you know, mr. vitali, what is interesting, well, have we heard... the encryption of the theses of erdogan, sinzipin there and all the other comrades who say that let's come to the negotiating table, no, why? and because they are afraid to put on the table what they really think, because it will immediately be thrown in the trash, even without a preliminary discussion, and i think that this is what the pope said, what you need, what is better come to an agreement now, because it will be worse, that 's what they could say, that's it you know, at all... negotiations, well, actually, it begins with the voicing of certain positions, initial positions, where do you start, what do you want, well, there are no chinese formulas for peace here, what are they about, or about what, they are about slogans, they are not about specifics , recently the information that erdogan wants to achieve, well there, well, if you believe it, because right now

, you can’t do anything, to anyone and anything, then they are actually repeated absolutely russian. positions, that is why he is silent, he speaks theoretically, let's sit down, with what to sit down, what to talk about, how to talk, with whom to talk and so on, no, that's why these are increasingly political, so to speak, games, it 's the need to show yourself as a peacemaker, it's playing for the public, these are domestic political pluses and minuses, and so on , this is not about ukraine, that china has specific requirements, china talked about the need to remove sanctions from its companies, which now... have problems with supplying russia with products, they talked about this in europe. china demands that the west does not supply weapons to ukraine, china has certain proposals, absolutely specific, they are just that, but let's understand that they should also then clearly say what they offer in exchange for this, and

there is no question of this, a general phrase about the recognition of territorial integrity, it hangs in the air, if they are not... reinforced by some concrete proposals and, most importantly , concrete steps, that is why it is again to play for oneself, to think about one's interests, but clearly not about non-ukrainian ones, but again, when we talk about an alternative path, which the president suggests of ukraine, the peace formula, the international peace summit in switzerland, the heads of state are coming there, i think that those heads of state will come there who will agree, will agree with this. and how does it contribute to real negotiations at all, when russia ignores not only us, it also ignores the international community, no, russia has already declared, you must have heard the statement of this minister of lies, i only call him lavov now, about that they want to put us in front of

a fait accompli and give us an ultimatum, i.e. here look... everyone got together, wrote down what needs to be done, and then, they say, they don't invite us either, and then they bring us to the second summit, they say, please, you have to do this, they say we won't do this, well, that's his position, we 'll leave it in parentheses and so on, but if these theses are again quite general, quite optical and so on, they will be correctly deciphered and agreed upon. most countries, then this will definitely create colossal problems for russia, because if, say, it can then be put on the resolution of the general assembly, for what under... why will, let's say, one and a half hundred countries sign and vote there, then this is the same thing that will be very strong in russia, it will not give practical

results, of course, but in the political context, in the context, by the way , the same lawsuits against russia, compensation for damages there and so on and so on and so on, it can play a very positive role, and russia will have nothing to say, because if it is really the vast majority of countries in the world, then i.. .. how, what arguments should be given so that this kill, but there are none. and what do you think happened with president macron and at the same time with chancellor scholz, president macron, who has always been such a supporter of diplomacy, conversations, and dialogue, is now saying that he is even ready to see troops on the territory of ukraine in the future. and chancellor scholz, who until recently was one of the main, i would say, such supporters of increasing the supply of weapons to ukraine, is now trying to behave more than cautiously, and it seems to me that this story is not only about tauris. what has changed? no, no, well, here i think after all, the main point, in the german position, not even in the german position, but in the position of scholze himself, is the taurus.

look, germany is the second supplier of weapons to ukraine, so this is very good, and it started with helmets and medical kits, ends with extremely important, here you know, i think, in relation to the tauruses, it's uh that's... eh, well, i would said, that splinter that sits in the heads of all germans, starting with the second, after the end of the second world war. a german soldier must no longer shoot, kill there and so on and so forth. if a german officer sits and directs the taurus to the conditional kaluga there or whatever and so on, then for scholz it means that this german officer is participating in the war. for him, this is the very barrier. yes , over which he cannot jump , so here, i think, it is purely psychological, but i think they will push, in relation to macron, well , remember how he received putin the first time

when he came to france, how he vilified him there publicly at the press conference and so on, and so on, well, it's true, then a certain congress went down, you know, how from above, now it’s uphill again, that is, i think this is an awakening, mr. vitaly, this is an awakening of many europeans and their politicians, who have realized that if comrade trump wins and plans to change the paradigm of transatlantic relations, then they will have to think about their own security, and how to think independently if you don't help ukraine, which today really stands, well, on the path of this pride, so again, it's not because macron or someone else loves ukraine very much. they just understand that if we fall, then, then everything else is falling, here you already want it, you don’t want it, but you need to help, but there is no such impression that there is any concrete information

about the real intentions, which changed this position, the real intentions of russia in relation to europe, in relation to the european countries of nato , that's how they talk about it every day, they talk about what they don't like, not only they don't like what is done in the west, but they, uh... define it as their, well, so to speak, really existential enemy, i constantly read what zakharova writes, listen, well, i don’t know i'll have to ask somewhere for some extra portion of milk, because there is kefir , i hope it's not vologda, because this, because this, on the verge of really, well, madness, that 's why, well, that's why, i think it's the same ... they read both in the embassies of these countries and in the capitals of these countries, and they begin to understand that behind all this external madness is really this hatred that is coming out now,

well, it's like finland and sweden, who read all this, saw it and decided that neutrality ends, you see, and that's all, well, that 's right, and at the same time, well, let's do it but you were in moscow in the early 90s and saw these eyes... coming from america to moscow, to leningrad, just to be brought, yes, brought, so that they, so that they would not die from hunger, of course, today someone in moscow is talking about it, no, damn the americans, who always thought how to kill us, destroy us, starve us to death and so on, so it was the same with herbert hoover's company in the 20s, who saved the russians from starvation, they would have died if it hadn't been. well, in my opinion, it seems so to me, to me

i want to believe it, it begins. after all, the process of getting out of the warm bath, in which the west has been for 30 years, finally he begins to understand that they are dealing with a monster, with the devil, and with the devil, well, somehow kissing is dangerous, and not slowly, it all happens, slowly, slowly , but you know, well, what happens when we spoke 5-7 years ago to some of our western... uh, egg-headed comrades and showed them what was happening and what would happen, they said, no, no, in you are the same tyu-tyu, now it is very nice to communicate and to remind, they say, well, you were right, well, we see, we saw this beautiful scene where the german delegation laughed at president trump, who told them that if you finish the nord stream, you will have serious energy problems, well by the way, as an experienced businessman, he simply spoke not even as a politician, as a person

who can simply compose. 10 + 10 and knows that it will be 20, the whole german political elite thought that it would be 25, and here it was amazing, absolutely, so if we finish our conversation, is it possible to be optimistic about this western support in the future, i think so, i think, despite all that it is not easy, i think that american help will be, you see, it is delayed, but it cannot be , because otherwise the republicans, as they say, overpress. for yourself, not for good, for evil. europe is waking up, albeit slowly, but it seems to me that it is moving in the right direction, and this direction, you see, the czech president suddenly, since there are 800 thousand shells somewhere , i think there are much more can be found, so that's all, that's all, that's all fine, but the only point is that it's long, and long means that we pay,

unfortunately, with blood, well, in principle, we can talk about , that even without american help, europeans are still trying to find their own ways to participate in this process, absolutely, and we, mr. vitaly, with the same europeans and americans should think the same way about what we can do for ourselves in the same way very, very much, there are positive changes, this is very good, we just need to, as it is now fashionable to say, scale these things and do. instead of a million droms of drones, 2 million , instead of 2 million, 3 million, and so on and so on, that is, it’s all, well, figuratively speaking, it ’s called the transfer of the economy to military rails by and large, by and large, yes, it’s a difficult story, but you see, on unlike russia, where there will be an unconditional economic collapse, we will have the possibility of help from the west when there is money, when there are opportunities and when there is a desire, so you know, strategically looking. i

will tell you honestly, putin did for the collapse of russia probably the greatest of all , all those political figures who have been in russia in the last 30 years, i think that we once, well, in quotation marks, of course, but we thank him that he destroyed this half-empire to the end, thought that he would strengthen it , in fact, he will bury her and we will remember him in this regard, and it is possible even to say that he contributed to this topic as much as possible. i would like to thank volodymyr ogryska, diplomat, minister of affairs of ukraine in 2007-2009, head of the russian research center, who was in our ether thank you, mr. volodymyr, and thank you , dear viewers, for being with us in the politclub program on the espresso tv channel, which vitaliy portnikov conducted for you. , good luck.

it's 2 p.m. in ukraine, news time on the espresso tv channel, in the studio of iryna koval, greetings to all viewers, and now to the most important events. five more residents of donetsk region managed to be taken to a safe place by law enforcement officers from the bilyango group.