the rebels took control of the border settlements. how will rebel raids affect putin's election? ring exchange: germany may give taurus missiles to britain, and in return will strengthen ukraine with a new batch of storm shadow, will the replacement be equivalent? accession to the eu is delayed. approval of the negotiating framework may be delayed for several months. who stands in the way of ukraine. to the european union. over the next hour, we will talk about this and other things with a politician, diplomat, former foreign minister , a ukrainian of the british army in retired by glen grant. in an hour, literally in an hour, we will have people's deputies of ukraine, andriy osachuk, oleksandr mereshko and ivanna klympush tsinsadze on our air. however, before starting our today's big conversation under we are watching

a video of a raid by russian insurgents from the russian volunteer corps of the legion of freedom of russia and the siberia battalion in the belgorod and kursk regions of the russian federation. let's see.

tanks are here, friends, throughout our program we conduct polls, we ask you today about whether the raids of russian rebels on... the russian federation are bringing our victory closer. if you watch us on youtube, please write the appropriate button yes, no, or your comment below this video. if you 're watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote. if you believe that such raids are bringing our victory closer, then call 0800 211-381, not 0800 211 382. all calls to these numbers are free. vote, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote.

i would like to invite our first guest to our broadcast, this is pavlo klimkin, politician, diplomat, minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2014-19 . mr. pavle, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. congratulations, mr. serhiy, as always, your listeners will be happy, of course , you. mr. pavle, let's start with this story, which began to unfold before our eyes on march 12, when fighters of the russian... volunteer battalion, corps, or rather, the legion of freedom of russia, together with the siberia battalion, entered the territory of the russian the federation, volunteers later reported that they had taken full control of tyotkino, this is in the kursk region, next to the sumy region, the deputy commander of the legion of freedom of russia, maksimilian andronikov, known as caesar, announced in an address to the russians that the rebels intend to interfere.

to usurp power in the country in the future, let's listen to a small fragment of caesar. we are going to free you from poverty, poverty and fear, to free you from the dictatorship of the terrorist organization that seized power. give your children a normal, civilized future, without sanctions, without repression, without elections, without choices and without talking about important things, but with important values. and most importantly - without war. mr. pavle, do such raids by russian, i emphasize, russian volunteers on the territory of the russian federation bring our victory closer? well, this is a story, unfortunately, long-term, it usually works in terms of creating a feeling of insecurity, but even more a feeling that the war should... be on

the territory of the russian federation, and that the russian regime will not be able to transfer it to our territory, and why it will be further, then... more will be the scope, logic and in fact the depth of this answer, but at the same time , unfortunately, i have to disappoint those who hope that all these stories will affect putin's election, i don't know if this is in the classical sense a presidential election, probably not, but an election putin, of course yes, there i think that almost everything... has already been planned, and at the very least, everything is definitely under control there these days, so this story is unlikely to start a wave of instability on election days and after the elections, but strategically, of course a story

that gives many russians the understanding that war, in fact, it is not only somewhere there , it is... here, and in this, as, in my opinion, there is a meaning of what is happening, but considering the scale of this raid, the fact that russian volunteers entered the the territory of the kursk , belgorod regions, previously they entered the territory of the bryansk regions, as far as this can cause some kind of resonance, at least in the regions neighboring these regions, i.e. , well, what resonance can there be from these raids, in my opinion, here is the story not about what local resonance, here the story is precisely about that the war is on the territory of the aggressor as well, and it is very important that all these stories,

they spread not only in the neighboring region, but were mutually complementary, so that understanding began to grow in russia. that today's russia, it does not really have an image of the future, it is lost somewhere in the past, and if so, then in general, what does it really offer, and as far as i am concerned, it is not only about the regions neighboring us, there, of course, the fsb is trying to keep under their control, as we can see, is not always successful and often completely unsuccessful, but nevertheless, the whole... this story, it can only be successful when it gets a new breath, that is, if it goes like a fire on such dry grass, on such a wave, if you will,

that's when it actually can, can work, but it it definitely won't be in the coming election days. there are literally five days left until... before the elections, putin's next election, because really these elections cannot be called presidential elections, they are putin's re-elections, and even this is not a re-election, but rather the appointment, re-appointment of vladimir putin, that's the thing, these elections will be to take place, including in the territories that are occupied by the russian federation, which have already entered the constitution of the russian federation, this is kherson oblast. this is zaporizhzhia, it is a part of the donetsk and luhansk regions, well , a part of the zaporizhia and kherson regions, respectively. of course, since 2014, russia has held elections, various elections, and on the territory of the annexed crimea, but the scale

and number of occupied lands is growing. is this a reason for the world not to recognize the legitimacy of putin, since these... and ukrainians cannot elect the president of russia, if they vote for him there, well , relatively speaking, a few million, does that mean that the elections are falsified at the expense of those people who were driven to the elections who should not have voted for him? in my opinion, the question is actually much deeper, it consists in the fact that holding... elections in the occupied territories is a crime in itself, holding elections in the territory where the borders are not defined, because as a result of the manipulative change of the russian constitution, four ukrainian regions for

it is not clear what boundaries, this is actually not just manipulation, pure madness from the point of view. of international law by itself, from the point of view of politics as well, and the fact that today he cannot react to this is paralysis. of un patents, but we are already used to this. the problem is that we need a very concerted challenge that the west must present to itself now. he cannot determine and recognize the legitimacy of these elections, but he must also understand how the west will communicate with the russian authorities after these elections. since... in russia, that is, a presidential republic, it is not some other form there, well

, let there be a thought, for the sake of the federation and everything else, but the entire system of power is built on the supreme leader, who is now called the president in russia, once was called, as we all know, something else, so it seems to me that we have to ask the question of the legitimacy ... not only of who will be re-elected, as you said, as a result of this election, but the legitimacy of the entire system of government, and that's it so we have to act, as legally, finding the same arguments, at least on to the west, as it is not the west that will lead to this, unfortunately, but also politically, of course, here is this story, it is actually very important. and the fact that the ukrainian film, which

just two days ago won the oscar, shows what and how russia was going, in the sense of these elections, but i would actually show it from this angle too, that is, the legal basis is already clear, politics, well, basically yes, but there is also this very important moral component... or moral dimension, and it's really cool, is there a certain coincidence there, although i don't believe that our film won an oscar right before these stylized elections, we have to use it by just showing how russia actually got to this, where it came and where it will go next, and that... this film is very, very clear, tell me , please, if the world still does not recognize the legitimacy

of putin, does this mean that he will go into the category of dictators, autocrats and with the prefix self-proclaimed president, i don’t think so, and i don’t think that today in the world there is a political the will to achieve in this regard. new consensus: i actually see that part of the countries of the world and society, it actually understands that you cannot shake putin's hand, that you cannot shake his own hand, as it is actually established in the civilized world, the rest of the world will continue to do as it actually does, so get this, this is a great definition. as you said, which is currently applied to lukashenka, we, if we can, only

partially, will it help us, given the current position of the west, well will partially help, will it help us, given the current position of non-western countries, the answer is bitter and consists in the fact that rather not, mr. pavle, during the last few days such an absent discussion has been taking place... between the vatican and ukraine, to put it simply, between the holy see and the ukrainians, about the white flag about peace negotiations with the russian federation, an interview given by pope francis, pope francis to an italian tv channel, where a journalist asked him whether the ukrainians should raise a white flag, ukrainians, he said, should take the white flag and start peace talks. today the secretary of state of the vatican pietro parolin from... explained that the pontiff spoke in favor of creating, quote, the conditions for a diplomatic solution that would ensure

a just and lasting peace. it is obvious that the creation of such conditions does not depend on only one side, but on both. and the first condition, in my opinion, is precisely the cessation of aggression. how do you, mr. pavle, evaluate the actions, words and, most importantly, inaction of the pope during the last two years of russia's great war against ukraine. but the pope is in another place. global, absolutely, that is, in some parallel to us, which is different, not the same worse or better, but completely different, he has... a completely different history of latin american society, he understands the world in a different sense, in fact, he should understand how it is divided into the same binary categories of us, good, evil, victory, treason, but he doesn't understand it like that, he understands it through the logic of compromises, does

the logic of compromises help the church, that's a... i have a big question, but i won't get lost in today's debate inside the catholic church, when the pontiff talks about the white flag, he of course does not mean that we we have to give up, but what he says is so flippant, not understanding what it means for us, emotionally upsets us all, and actually shows reluctance. to understand us and talk with us, well, nobody prevented the pope from having a very involved discussion with us, to understand what is important and what is not important, he has his own apparatus, and people who are, of course, very intelligent, you were just cardinal parolin, but

the pope is in a different reality, we already remember how on... the holy of holies they tried to use the easter holiday there and a ukrainian woman and a russian woman and all these stories should already have shown us what the pontiff really thinks , so it affects us emotionally, and it is very right to fight back emotionally, i believe that there are other reasons, and it is not absolutely necessary, can the vatican in today's reality to be effective or? useful, if it can, thank god, as they say, if not, we will use others, i actually see the possible influence of the vatican very limited to humanitarian issues, such as humanitarian aid, such as possible exchanges, can the vatican be useful here,

i have my doubts, but nevertheless, for the sake of people, it is worth trying whether the vatican can be useful in some general political aspect, here i already have such very strong personal doubts that this is possible in principle, that the pope of rome will not cancel of this course and will try to speak for himself. regardless of the opinion of one's own diplomatic and non-diplomatic service, this is also completely understandable, but this whole story does it to me, i think that it just hurts you emotionally, because it is difficult, difficult to observe when the hierarch of the church, who should be

concerned about people and their souls. he actually thinks, well, how should i say it, very diplomatically, well, about something, about something completely different, well, let it stay, stay with him, i know many representatives of the catholic church who are not just sympathizers of ukraine, but with us and soul, and work a lot, and not only in the sense of humanitarian aid , so i... i did not spread his words to the whole church, but nevertheless, he is number one, and he is a point of reference for us, so emotionally watching and listening to him, it is very, very difficult for me, me, including, despite the fact that i have spent more than 30 years

in international relations, i must admit, against this background, mr. pavle, emanuel. macron is trying to demonstrate leadership in europe, during the last two weeks we have seen various statements, explanations, then clarifications, hints by macron about the troops that may be on the territory of ukraine, the member countries of the north atlantic alliance, not nato, but the countries of specific countries. president zelensky in an interview to the french tv channel bfm tv, said that the french military will not die. in ukraine, as long as ukraine repels russia's attack. let's listen to what president zelensky said. as long as ukraine is standing, the french army will be on... the territory of france, but if putin goes to war against that other nato country, it will be the nato countries who will decide how, in what number

to send or not to send their soldiers in their army, entire armies, combat battalions, to send to war, to the territory of one or another nato country. zelensky is quite simple explained: there will be a war in europe. the french will fight, now there is a war on the territory of ukraine , you are helping us, ukrainians are fighting, but macron has already talked about a new reality or a new security system that can be in europe, because it was not for nothing that he gathered the leaders of 20 european countries there and talked about how we are in general now, how will we confront russia, can there be a new security system, european, european, in parallel with the nato system. which has been talked about for a long time, or some other certain agreements that will allow the europeans to quickly adopt, make decisions faster than at the level of the north atlantic alliance? it is quite

possible, because nothing is impossible in the modern world, we will not live in the world in which we were before the war, we understand that, everyone else for now, well at least temporarily. macron's merit is that... he let the genie out of the bottle, he somehow took this cork there, and this problem began to live its own life, it is of course emotionally very difficult, and what macron did, he launched this problem into the social and political discussion before how there was some minimal consensus within the eu and nato, as a rule they do not do this and say: that this is very wrong, controversial, but macron is an experienced politician, he actually knew and knew very well what he was doing, and as you remember, before that, before

the summit in the french capital, other leaders also said that this issue is being discussed, i hope that i am not giving away any secrets when i say that the french representatives a few weeks before this... we were contacting with letters and this by offer inside, confidentially of course, that is, this conversation for those involved in it was by no means something that fell from the sky, or from where, from where, rather, not from where, i believe that this story, it is also about the possibility ... broken bridge to membership in nato, since it is perfectly clear to us that there must be real security guarantees, how they must be strengthened,

including through the presence of troops and infrastructure elements, as it should be said here, there is no consensus yet, on the contrary spears break, so does glory to god, things are breaking down, as a result, we need to talk, and not... discuss it all under a blanket, there is a difficult position of many nato countries, which is that the presence of troops in ukraine during the war fundamentally increases the probability of a conflict with russia, including a nuclear conflict, but everyone assesses the risks in their own way, but putin accepted this idea and, as you remember, said in his... address that he even quite emotionally said that those who will do it, they are , they will contribute to

the tragic events, so he decided to raise rates, i think there are people in the west who are ready to raise the rates, we need the army, including to work on joint service. elements of infrastructure, also, also western weapons , and many other things for training, that is , you can build and cross out many areas that are critical here, so that the discussion begins, it is great, the discussion will be difficult, it is also obvious, whether macron's statement was positive in in the context of the european elections, there are problems there. macron has his own problems both inside the country and with right and left, but in general i don't see any megathreats yet. in the states, this

statement. rather not very well somehow received a resonance, but also not critical, and macron understands very well, playing on the course of the election campaign, so in general i think that this move by macron, it is actually very interesting, i would approach it a little differently, but i'm definitely not macron, and the situation... he from paris sees, sees differently, so let's distinguish the sinful from the righteous, and the actual substance, the content of this proposal from the way he did it, but in general, in my opinion , he deserves to shake his hand for this proposal, which we must do. another topic that is relevant for ukraine is poland, problems with poland, the polish...

ukrainian border. today , in an interview with rbc ukraine, the deputy prime minister for reconstruction, the minister for the development of communities, territories and infrastructure, oleksandr kubrakov, said that the ukrainian government is doing its best to solve the problem of blocking the polish border. let's listen to what kubrakov said. i cannot say that it is polish, the polish government does nothing now. yes, we, we always want to get the result faster, but there is a certain dialogue with the carriers, there is a... signed memorandum, they have not yet, fortunately, joined the farmers' strike, that is, there are certain situations, in a certain way, i hope, he will settle with the farmers, that is, there is a more complicated discussion at the level of the european union, and then i say that mixed issues and internal, internal european ones should join, join, relatively speaking, our question, we are hostages in this situation, i clearly understand that it is unfair, wrong, incorrect, and

they, well... no one should do that, but, well, i say once again that there are their internal political forces there, someone says that they are there some are pro-russian , some others, it doesn't matter, but they are rocking this topic and will rock it, mr. pavle, what would you advise the current government, in the current situation with poland, with the negotiations with warsaw, not to stir up emotions, to involve brussels. and start a conversation not only as of now, but also in the context of future negotiations, and this a difficult story, you mentioned at the beginning of the conversation that now in brussels they are talking about agreeing on the so-called negotiating framework, this is the kind of story that should determine the limits of the mandate,

what the negotiators will actually do, what issues... will be included to what extent, in what priority i agree with mr. alexander in what he just said, and we all heard it, but in general i assess the situation somewhat, somewhat more alarming. i see local elections in poland, very difficult, i see european elections, which are not just developing yet. for the ruling coronation, so we will have to understand one way or another, in fact, and as we conduct further negotiations, all countries, the same poland, there is slovakia, hungary, there is the czech republic, all the former countries of the european union joined the eu, so in small steps, so to

speak, and we already have. significant access to the markets of the european union, although it happened in such a tragic way, and this actually means that the very logic, the very strategy of such negotiations will be different, that we will have to agree, and if we don't can do, then such emotional things as the border, they will be repeated with greater and greater power. and it is very important for us to understand in general the concept of how the european union will approach the reform of the common agricultural policy and those sectors that are critically sensitive for the economy of ukraine. therefore, i do not want to encourage anyone and say that we will solve it there tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, it should be, we have our own clear strategic framework, what and when we do. we

also have e.