macron, scholz and tusk met to discuss support for ukraine. this meeting took place just after another statement by the french president about the possibility of sending his troops to ukraine. can we talk about the emergence of a new one in europe? we discuss the ukrainian triangle together in today's edition of bbc ukraine, i'm olga polamaryuk. emmanuel macron again spoke about sending french troops to ukraine. the evening before, the french president gave a long interview where he talked a lot about the war, about russia and about supporting ukraine. well, firstly, macron declared that russia cannot and should not win the war, and in order for this not to happen, europe must support ukraine.

interestingly, this is not the first time that macron directly spoke about what i am quoting: putin's russia is currently an opponent of france, end of quote, and in the event of ukraine's defeat, trust in the whole of europe will also be shaken. the war is now on european territory, and the distance between strasbourg and lviv is less than 1,500 km. realize well that the war is going on in this country - it is not a fiction, and it is not far from it. if russia wins this war, trust in europe will drop to zero, what kind of trust can we have in the ability of the european union, its members, who allowed this to happen? do you think that the poles, lithuanians, estonians, latvians, romanians and bulgarians will continue to have peace, i am not talking about moldova, which is immediately there. under threat. two years ago we

said we would never provide tanks, but we did. two years ago we said we would never send an intermediate- range missile, but we did. we said we would not give any planes, but we are doing it. we put too many restrictions, i would say so said, however, we do not seek escalation, we are not at war with russia, if we simply cannot let russia win. that's right, macron spoke on... the other day, he went to germany already today. in berlin, macron met with chancellor olaf scholz and polish prime minister donald tusk. they gathered to discuss support for ukraine. let me remind you that germany is the largest supplier of weapons to the armed forces of ukraine in europe. however, the day before donald tusk said that poland, germany and france should mobilize all to help ukraine europe, and wrote in his twitter less words, more weapons. what is known about from this.

of course, the meetings of these leaders take place behind closed doors, so we can only guess what they are discussing, but it is quite clear that the situation in ukraine is being discussed at this unscheduled emergency meeting. recently , the relationship between the president of france, emmanuel macron, and the chancellor of germany, olaf scholz, has been under particularly close attention, as there are ambiguous reports coming from both countries. messages regarding support for ukraine. macron's rhetoric is becoming daedalus is sharper. recently, he made several statements that surprised many. for example, when he said that he does not rule out the idea that one day he will have to send troops to ukraine. olaf scholz immediately reacted to this and emphasized that this would not happen in any case, and germany would not enter the war. and after that , various disputes began between the two countries about who is doing what to help ukraine. so i think a lot of people see this meeting as an opportunity to smooth things over. see if they can

parties to come to an agreement , and at least better coordinate their messages, since this is a crucial moment for europe, because there are well-founded fears that donald trump could become the president of the united states again in the elections this year, and this could undermine support for ukraine, given that he said about the nato military alliance, and then countries like germany and france will have to strengthen european autonomy. the meeting took place against the background of new calls from kyiv for ukrainian financing. army providing equipment and weapons always takes high on the agenda, countries are trying to send more munitions to ukraine, even though the eu has admitted that they are not actually meeting their targets in this regard. i recently visited a factory, or rather a city that will one day become a factory that will produce ammunition in the coming years, and some of it is planned to be sent to ukraine, but it is of course a constant pressure. in addition, discussions on taurus cruise missiles are ongoing in germany. there is enormous pressure on olaf scholz to either... allow these wingmen to be sent

missiles into ukraine, but he says, no, we won't do that, that 's out of the question at the moment, and it's caused some irritation among allies, including france and great britain, but... then germany gets irritated by saying, in fact, we're second of the united states in terms of the number of weapons promised to ukraine, but apparently there is now a lively debate not only about what can be sent to ukraine, but also about what can be manufactured here in europe. looking ahead, a senior defense official in germany with whom i recently spoke said that in his opinion, europe, from the point of view of its own industrial base, will be able to defend itself no earlier than in 10 years. well , the meeting of the three leaders, their statements, especially macron, is taking place against the background of an acute shortage of ammunition in the armed forces of ukraine. it is the lack of weapons that is called one of the reasons for the success of the russians at the front. and now, to

the surprise of many, macron is apparently trying to lead a european coalition in support of ukraine. well , two years ago, everything was different. you remember these shots where putin and macron are sitting at a long table in the kremlin. it was two weeks before russia attacked ukraine. then the french and russian presidents, as they said, were looking for points of understanding between russia and the west. at that time , macron said that russia should not be humiliated, that putin should be brought to his senses. now he declares that the kremlin should not win, even more, calls on the west not to be weak and help ukraine. what changed macron so much and can french troops really end up in ukraine? we are talking about it together with maria oleksya, a journalist in paris, maria, i am you congratulations, how did this evolution of macron happen, what influenced him so much? congratulations, the evolution is absolutely phenomenal, because we really went from a person who said that it is not necessary to humiliate russia, and this happened back in june

2022, he said this, that is, after the full-scale invasion, after the footage from buchi, from mariupol, and this is such a radical change. i think there are three reasons for it. the first reason is putin's lies. this is a personal insult to macron, the fact that he tried to solve something diplomatically, he put his own name on the line, and putin actually let him down, betrayed him. the second reason, i would call such acquired sobriety of macron. he himself stated this in one of the last interviews, he said that europe lags in strategic thinking by 6-12 months from russia's actions, and i think so. i think that macron is simply catching up with this european delay and the realization that it is necessary to act faster. and the third reason, which is still very important to note, is communication with volodymyr zelensky. politicians have become very close over the years, and so have i i saw them on february 16 in the elysée palace,

and it is clear from them that they actually became friends somewhere, and i think that the messages sent by zelensky to macron eventually worked. yes, that is, it is not... the evolution of not only macron, but also the evolution of the relationship between macron and zelensky. well, maria, i still want to talk, discuss macron's statement about sending french troops to ukraine, so far it's just an assumption, but even it has angered european partners, as well as in france itself accept such an idea? you know, in france she was not happy either, let's say, there was a recent poll according to which 68% of the french believe that... macron was not right when he made this statement, they do not agree with the president, so here too, if this news was not received very positively. if we talk about the french opposition, then in general there is very, very harsh criticism, both from the left wing and from the extreme right wing, so in france this news, well, it has not yet been digested, although the minister of defense

clarified macron's words and said that it is primarily about demining, about military medics, about personnel who will train the ukrainian military, not the government. about soldiers who will be fighting, somewhere, well, on the front line, and anyway, this news was met in france, well, let's say, coolly, and so far it hasn't changed at the moment, yes, and even with the criticism, as you say , and not the support of the majority of the population, why is it for macron, why should he lead such a union, which he does not care about, it is primarily the personal ambitions of a politician who wants to go down in history, and even that is not a whim. in 2027, macron completes his mandate and cannot be re-elected for the next term. in domestic politics, macron's baggage is, let's say, not very positive, he did not remain in the memory of the french as a progressive president, a fair president, but rather as a person

who pushed through unpopular reforms. therefore , his political resume and what he leaves behind in domestic politics leave much to be desired. there is a foreign policy in which macron believes. himself an unequivocal leader, a visionary, and in some ways even the savior of europe, therefore the victory of ukraine would simply fit perfectly into this personal mission that macron has set upon himself. namely, the role of the leader of europe, which, in particular, in a situation where the united states is a little, well, let's say , lagging behind in its leadership on this issue recently, and what will happen from november is difficult to even imagine, then macron takes this role , so first of all, he needs it for himself, and even in a conversation with volodymyr zelenskyi, he said: i do many things for ukraine, but understand, i also do them for france, for the french, first of all, and this is absolutely normal, because he is the president of his country. and he has the right to take care of his property and what he leaves behind . yes, maria, we still have time with you

to discuss one such issue, and one of the theses that macron expressed the day before was about nuclear weapons. but what about france, what are they saying about it in france, what is the society's reaction to such words of the president? regarding the nuclear threat, the situation is very specific. the fact is that france is the only eu country that owns nuclear weapons. there was britain, but britain left the eu, only france remains, so france somewhere can afford to speak on such topics, well, let's say, no, not quite naively or somehow prudently, but well, it can simply afford to appeal in such terms and say: well, putin, the nuclear threat, do what you want with it, because france is simply in such a position of strength in this regard, and macron himself has said this many times, and he knows this, and i think specifically france itself. .. is not under direct threat a nuclear attack or

some direct attack by the russians, because everyone understands the reality of the response, but that is why macron can take on this role of leader and somehow play this position of strength in order to gain, for example, some production capabilities, capacities in france, build them up for to finally lead ukraine to victory. maria, thank you, maria oleksa, was in touch with us from paris. on what the western press writes about macron's evolution, my colleagues collected the most interesting. the british the guardian writes: macron has transformed over the past 12 months from from a stubborn supporter of dialogue with putin to the main activist. ukraine must return crimea to achieve real peace - macron. this is already the title of the newsweek article. and the daily mail quotes macron's answer to putin. we are a nuclear power and we. ready, responding to putin's predictions about the use of nuclear weapons. it comes

after russia 's president said on state television earlier this week that the weapons are there to be used, hinting at the possibility of nuclear weapons being deployed if western troops are deployed in ukraine. politico notes: germany accuses paris of being bold with its words. at that time, spending less on aid to kyiv than its allies, and in today's article lemond summarizes macron's dilemma as follows: he wants to explain to his citizens that times have changed, that the days of carefree thinking are over, but without provoking them, that is, to prepare the country to increasing long-term support for ukraine, but without announcing the blood, sweat and tears that usually accompany the transition to... a real military economy, so how can we explain this insight of the french

president in his attitude towards supporting ukraine and why is the german chancellor, despite being irritated by macron's reproaches, so adamant on the issue of long-range weapons for kyiv? here are the thoughts of muhadba rahman, director of european programs at the eurasia foundation think tank. i will start with germany. the office's position is not determined by ukraine's needs on the battlefield. and the desire to be somewhere in the middle, this is essentially the leading principle of scholz's party of social democrats in approaches to war in ukraine. they do not want to take responsibility for the supply of some extraordinary weapons systems, but to be somewhere in the middle and not stick out, as the americans and others have done. france, in my opinion, now views the war in ukraine in a completely different way. the change of mentality happened already in macron's big speech. since then, we have seen

major changes in french politics, both in the question of whether ukraine should join the eu and in the question of its potential membership in nato. and now also in the question of how to give i am happy with the war, given the risk of victory. well, that's all for today, see you on monday. greetings, friends, live on the espresso tv channel, the second part of the verdict program, my name is serhiy rudenko, today in the program: the fourth day of the war in russia,

explosions are heard again in belgorod, russian rebels promise to restore the humanitarian corridor. for civilians. russian election roulette. vote, don't vote, the result is known in advance. will the west recognize the legitimacy of putin after the fake elections? parliamentary crisis in ukraine. the monomajority in the verkhovna rada is under attack. what threatens the weakness of the ukrainian government in the conditions of war. we talk about this and other things for the next 45 minutes. i remind you that in addition to the telecast, we are working. on youtube and facebook, for those who are watching us live on youtube right now, please take part in our vote, we are asking you today, will the west dare to send its troops to ukraine, yes, no, if you have a special opinion, please leave it in the comments under this video, if you watch us on tv, take it in your hands smartphone or phone and vote if you think that the west will dare to send

its troops to ukraine 0800 211 381, no 0800 211 382 vote, all calls to these numbers are free, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote, i want to introduce the guests of our studio today, these are my colleagues, kateryna nekrecha , journalist of radio liberty, kateryna, i congratulate you, oleksiy mustafin, historian, publicist, media manager, oleksia, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today, well, since we are our tv viewers, we ask what they think about the west, which will dare or not to... send its troops to ukraine, i will ask you and you, dear colleagues, kateryna, in the blitz format, what do you think, whether the west will still dare to send troops to ukraine , well, i would expand the question in which case this could happen, well, we have already heard that there are such opinions that it could also be the instructors on the ground there, for example, such an option, because

there they unofficially talk about that such phenomena in principle already exist in ukraine, and that there are some instructors, but so that... but maybe there is no number depending on this, 100% of ukrainians are very happy that this topic has been raised in general, and one more important point, to what extent it affected or not affected the russian authorities, we also week saw in principle the reaction in that famous interview of vladimir putin, and they also talked about it, and although the russian president said that it will not change the situation of foreign troops in ukraine, they will not affect the... russian-ukrainian war, nevertheless, nevertheless, well, as military experts they point out that it would still be a significant blow there, therefore, probably, the very rhetoric of the french president, and in general, that this topic is raised, it can certainly be a reason, well, to get nervous, i don't know, but still somehow in the same tone,

it is possible to talk with the russian authorities, or to tone up the same putin. oleksiy, do you think that the west will be able to send its troops to ukraine? well, at some point obviously and do not want russian troops to come , to make a decision about the possibility of sending troops at the request of ukraine, it should also be noted that ukraine has not yet requested to send, to send troops, on the other hand, if such a decision is made by ukraine and by western allies, the question arises whether it will simply depend on ukraine to simply join, perhaps this will revive the discussions around this issue. well, all the more so since zelenskyi said this week that for now there is no such need, and

if the need is such, then of course ukraine will turn to the western countries. meanwhile, we are witnessing how russian volunteers, as well as those who once fought against ukraine and were captured by ukraine, began to fight in the russian volunteer corps and in the legion of freedom of russia and the siberian battalion on the territory of the russian federation. today , the fighters of the legion of freedom of russia posted another video of combat operations on the territory of russia, this time they showed how they conduct a mortar attack on a position. of the russian army, let's see what is happening and most importantly, what these fighters say, we send ballots for voting, we send ballots. for the vote, i hope they will hit directly on the table to volodymyr volodymyrovych, it would be very good, because our people elect him. our

mine chooses him. oleksiy, what informational and psychological effect does this have for russians and does it have this effect for russians? i don't think it's aimed at the russians, i think. aimed at creating a general context, taking into account, well, that is, they do not even hide that they started this action precisely during this procedure of putin's approval on a new term, and it seems to me, is aimed precisely at creating an understanding that putin does not even control his own territory, and this is another one, so to speak. in favor of not recognizing putin, not recognizing these so-called elections, and not recognizing putin as the legitimate head of the russian federation,

not the only argument, but, so to speak, redundant, i think that this is actually the greatest effect that such a , a similar operation on the territory of russia. katerina, how much such raids bring our victory closer, and how about yours. the effect should be from these raids, it is clear that in the border regions to ukraine this effect is felt, because the population is being evacuated there, they understand what war is, the war has already come to the territory of the russian federation, and whether it can have any effect further into the depths of the russian federation, because they control the media, they control the internet , and it seems that in the last few days... they and even some satellites, as we speak, including control, because they are trying to remove the signal on the territory of the russian federation, in particular broadcasting espresso tv channel. what else can

be counted on and what do you think these fighters who return home and start fighting against putin's regime are counting on. in general, this is a very interesting story, this is not the first time, we should have been ready for such raids , nevertheless, this question, and for what and why, it bothers you, and this time also, will it have an impact on the russian-ukrainian war in general, well, military experts say no, absolutely, and some of the ukrainian military experts do not see any military purpose in this is probably true, it is some kind of informational informational pressure, we understand that at least there is a group commenting on this topic, although they say that they do not manage the process, but they, well, cooperate in this situation and point it out. the ukrainian side points out that it is russia and russian citizens there, russian citizens are doing it. probably not everyone in russia will find out about it, and those who will find out about it, they

will find out about it from the russian media, and there they say that these are terrorists, there are ukrainian nazis and so on, all that they like to repeat, that is, in essence, in the eyes of a russian citizen, this whole story with the raid, it will reinforce this putin, putin's theses in that... that russia must be defended, there is a danger, and this is essentially what putin said , the war there is for survival, yes, if not us, then us, in fact, he said about it , probably this is how it looks in the eyes of russian citizens, and will it in any way affect the legitimacy of the elections or not, but probably not , the main question of legitimacy is that again russian elections are taking place on the occupied ukrainian territories, this time again, this is an important moment for recognition of legitimacy, recognition. these elections or not? and the fact that a person who has a warrant from the international criminal court is running for president of russia, that is, a criminal who is running for president of the russian

federation. we will talk about the elections a little later, let's listen to what putin himself says about the actions of russian rebels in the kurshchyna and belgorod regions. uh, unfortunately, we cannot show this synchronicity, i will quote it: in order to disrupt the voting process, to intimidate people, the kyiv neo-nazi regime planned and is trying to carry out a number of criminal demonstrative armed actions, this is striking peaceful settlements on the territory of russia, about 95% of missiles and shells are destroyed by our air defense systems. nevertheless, we have victims among civilians, all of them and their families will be provided with all the necessary help and support. these blows of the enemy do not and will not remain unpunished, - said vladimir putin. oleksiy, how about in a situation where putin will

always... poke at the ukrainians and say: you see, they are shelling us over there, or theirs over there drones are destroying our infrastructure, but we are defending ourselves, and the need for ukraine to fire at critical infrastructure facilities, military facilities on the territory of the russian federation, the destruction of oil refineries, where is that, well, i wanted to say the balance, but where is it that border , where ee u... ukrainians can do something, and so that it is not perceived, or not interpreted that way by the russians, or the russians will always interpret it the wrong way and make ukrainians the devils, toot their horns and say that they are ukrainians, of course if we are talking about putin's propaganda, then in two years we have to, if in 10 years we are not used to it, then in two years we have to get used to trying to somehow agree with ourselves like this. for

putin's propaganda to speak in a different way does not make any sense, this is a war, it continues, and you know, these statements about ukrainian terrorists, it reminds me, do you remember chapyk had such a phrase that the enemy attacked, criminally attacked our aviation, which peacefully bombed their cities, that is , there is no need to look, look, look for logic there in general, there is no need to be distracted by this, i think that we need to... we need to pursue those policies and those military actions that are useful to our side. i think that our allies fully understand the military necessity of the things that are happening, and i do not think that russian propaganda can somehow affect the amount of this aid, there are rather internal problems with our allies, and this is what needs more attention turn,

rather than to... russian, russian propaganda, this is what we observe, what we now we are analyzing, and what we are talking about is just a week before the elections, putin's pseudo-elections, there are no elections there, putin's reappointment by russian citizens, and it is clear that in this context we are talking about his legitimacy, or questioning the legitimacy of everything that it started with... today, today , putin himself sat down at the computer, there, pressed some buttons, they showed that he even picked up a mouse there, which is already very strange, and he made some kind of click in the online voting on elections of the russian federation, but us interested in the territory of the ukrainian state and those areas that are under temporary occupation, these are millions of people who are forced, or may not be forced, some of them

are possible... and happily go to the polling stations there and start voting, now early voting, on sunday , the elections are already complete. kateryna, you already mentioned that the fact that this action is taking place on the territory of the ukrainian state is a reason to talk about the illegitimacy of putin, but we know that elections to the state duma were once held in the annexed crimea, and it is clear that probably for it is already customary for western countries to speak there and make statements about illegitimacy , but we cannot go beyond that, whether western countries, in particular the countries of western europe, can make some kind of consolidated decision that we do not recognize these elections, because there are 2 million ukrainians who are in the temporary territory, their votes were counted for president putin, and

how can he... be considered the legally elected president of russia, if he basically falsified the elections at the expense of these 2 million. is this possible, and if it happens, then what will this mean for putin, he will be called the self-proclaimed president of russia, like the self-proclaimed president of belarus? this is a very difficult question, probably globally in general, and from the evaluations i hear in the comments, well, it seems to me that it is not enough. it is incredible, of course, that the elections , the so-called illegal elections in the occupied ukrainian territories, are not recognized by the world, which were not recognized before, this is an important point, but is the west ready to simply cut off all ties with the russian government that is currently yes, this is a question, a question also in that...