well, how would i find out that there are generals there , or the flow of information is getting out more, and even then, the americans are always monitoring there, the number of calls is simply increasing somewhere, mr. mykola, but in these very first messages from the zetniks, which they later rubbed out, there, they all boiled down to this, that well, how did the enemy learn about it, the rhetorical question of the traitors in sevastopol did not become less, well... all those whom they consider traitors, in fact, on the contrary, just people who did not betray their country even for 10 years of occupation, them in fact, fortunately there is enough in sevastopol , there is someone to turn to, great news: yevhen dykiy, veteran of the russian-ukrainian wars, head of the national antarctic scientific center, former platoon commander of the aidar battalion, was in touch with us, we thank him, good news , we are all very pleased, and now we are more... less about

military matters, more about politics, maybe even about international affairs, bohdan ferens, expert international candidate of political sciences, now i hope he will appear before us, appeared , great too, i have some great news today during the program, good health, mr. bohdan, and my first question is this, well, not a political one, but a political-psychiatric, psychological one. not some kind, because we are talking about putin, about putin, when you talk about putin, it doesn’t work without psychiatry, although there is no doubt that you shouldn’t focus like that, but look, the russians are looking and can’t find what kind of terrorist attack it was, the ukrainians, the north caucasians, the people of idil , such, such, er, and, but something constantly crawls to the surface, the west, the civilized world, well...

it goes without saying that the ukrainians will not believe a single word, i hope, but the west can cling to those ideas that, well, it is probably some north caucasus, an alliance there with the ukrainians, and that's what they did, and i think that they will insist on it, well , because the whole west already knows that it is an idol, an idol, how is it necessary to add some specific work to it, but here is the question... everyone they see now these victims, these corpses, this fire, these 133 heavenly bodies, and if you are layering it, oh, it is putin layering it, oh, you you see, it's all bullshit , they're to blame for everything, and everyone cries like that, they'll say, yes, yes, yes, maybe it's really them, they'll believe in this, in the third year of russia's full-scale attack.

well, first of all, who, who will believe, that is, if it concerns the event, then newspapers, politicians , individual newspapers, television, i think that already yesterday, today, there were already statements by officials, there and the state department , that is, that there is no such form that they want to tie, or maybe they will tie in the kremlin directly to this terrorist attack, which it concerns ukraine or something else , so it is unlikely here, and the kremlin certainly does not count on it, in relation to western countries, putin's main target, first of all, is russians, that is, the domestic consumer and countries of other geography, that is, let's put it this way, not western countries, but the countries in which they study, mr. bohdan, i'm sorry to cross, but russia... they won't believe, you know, i

intend these russian clothes on myself, i'm constantly trying to understand how i reacted when i was , i am so old that i have seen brezhnev, i even saw him twice, that is and i saw that we did not know the truth, this is an interesting moment, what a transition from my parents, who knew and believed stalin there, and then there khruchevo, then brezhnev, i didn’t know how really, but just... no i believed, well , conditionally, i didn't know why they rushed to afghanistan, but when brezhny explained to me there, he came out and said: "we are paying off the international debt." not only i, the whole of kyiv did not believe, that is, the system does not break down immediately, but it gradually breaks down. at first you believe and give all your heart to putin, then you say, okay, i don't i know how it was, but, but not like that, that’s it, that’s the logic, i don’t know who will go there... to that

crocus, but not as they tell me from the kremlin, russian thought has already reached, if there is this thought such, so such a reaction, such a possible reaction? i think that it is partially possible, that is, but again, here depending on what we see in russian thought, well, that it is partially fragmented, i think that it is so, well, in principle, we have a more superficial perception of what is happening there, given the well in some places there is a lack of understanding , and sometimes there is a reluctance to do so, because... we understand that, again, something does not always depend even on the fact that the navalny oppositionist was conditionally there, now he is no longer, yes, but it fundamentally did not allow , for example, putin will not be re-elected, but on the other hand, fragmentation, i think, it exists due to, first of all, different

sources that can circulate in telegram channels there, and which are consumed by a part of russian, so to speak... russian citizens, these are mostly young people or middle-aged, but what concerns the older generation, i think there, even if something so radically different, untruthful, is not said there, they will accept it, because there for years the foundations have been much more strongly prepared for the the consumption of information took place in the way that the kremlin needed directly, this is the first, well, and the second, we have seen, that is, yes, what tools are used in some places in propaganda resources and approaches, and this is sometimes, well, the more blatant lies there, or distortion of information, the easier it

gets somewhere for consumption, especially again in the present time of constant political talk shows, completely controlled by the crimean media. well, actually also social networks, which disperse what is needed. i would also like to focus on the fact that there are other countries in which russian propaganda is spread, others of a different geography, in which russian propaganda is systematically circulating, china, indonesia, for example, and india itself, that is, you really need to follow it very carefully , how this or that information is perceived there, which is widely distributed by the russian federation, especially. now, to prevent this as far as possible, for example, with the help of our communication at the official level, and also the communication of our western partners. well, yes, the main thing, in general, i think that the main thing is to sow doubts, it is impossible not to win, but there are already doubts.

let's repeat, once again, i 'm contacting the hardware department, they showed footage of the idol himself, which was taken during the attack, these are precisely the people who attacked, who... shot, just let's go let's show it again so that people understand that these are just dealers, these are all tajiks, well , at least i don't know who they are for that they are shooting, but who are they for, but they speak tajik, as i understood the language, and they speak very, very bad russian, and it's also strange, because i don't know what this gentleman who is pointing his finger is talking about, but if you came to russia, then i'm sorry, you need to know russian to explain what... you you want, why are you doing it, who, who are you offended by, because if you are going to speak in tajik, then it is unlikely someone, someone will understand you, well , not everyone, not all migrants speak russian, by the way, i understand it, but i

would teach one at least somehow, because me, for example, i did not understand what they were interrogating, at all he sometimes repeated three times, and then for them the one before the other, whether the investigator or not the investigator. whose executioner, i don't know who he was there, i repeat , then i understood what it was about, but i couldn't understand it, i can't understand this, this russian language, listen, and this moment is very interesting, we somehow constantly in in such a state, that on the one hand, that's why i started the conversation with you, mr. bohdan, who will believe, will not believe, how, how in the west, how this, how they can react. well, in the west , it is clear to us how they will react, and this is a severed ear, this is the fact that this thing has gone around the world, and they flaunt it, they show it, they do not hide it, it will somehow affect us, well, we in ukraine, this is it, i believe it's a humanist who cut his ears off, after

what they did in our butch, one ear isn't such a big loss, but still the whole world saw and the russians saw this ear, this... how can it be affected, they will like the cut off ears of the russians, or on the contrary they will be so sad in themselves they will start to care, well here i am... i think it was aimed at this emotional component , that is, when there is an excessive emotion, or something that breaks the pattern, sometimes yes, it circulates much faster and is much, so to speak, easier to perceive and the challenge is perceived and causes certain emotions, and therefore when there is an excessive amount of emotions, then you can spread what what is needed is the first secondly, in this story, by the way, this is not always the case, but it is important to remember that the united states of america, if i am not mistaken, at the beginning of march, on

the seventh or eighth, already warned about possible terrorist attacks directly in moscow , it was done primarily on prejudice, understanding that there may be a context later that will be tied to ukraine or something invented there, and now i think this should be the key argument that on the one hand everything yes, there is intelligence... in the usa, it is especially on the topic of terrorism there and their contacts and resource capabilities, they allow them to possess serious information, this is the first, friend, and the second question is what did the russian, yes, the special services or those who are responsible for preventing terrorist attacks directly there in moscow or in some other part of russia they didn't... do , well, they didn't do anything in this regard, but actually these accents are not

focused much now, and the discussion and the media do not particularly mention it, but i believe that it is a very important component, which still allows you to remove all the points on that one in some places, and well that is, yes, it is necessary to closely monitor how this entire story will be interpreted from the kremlin's side, but in my opinion it will be more and more difficult for them to knit. it is there with ukraine, as they wanted to do it, because after all, well , the context, even for, i think, russians, after all, the appearance is still characteristic, and there those whom they caught, and to tie them to, well, to the ukrainian context, i think it's quite difficult, although for older people, those who are already constantly in propaganda, they receive everything without any absolutely critical... such filters, well , they can perceive anything, you know, mr. bohdan, i have heard this version, as

well as this criticism, that the russian special services did not manage, could not, did not minimize, i will tell you, between us, girls, do not tell anyone, the united states special services also did not manage on september 11, the special services of the great the british didn't manage, the french special services didn't manage in the bataclan either and... either you have a spy there, or you don't know anything about what's going on there, you know, but information, mr. mykola, but the americans had information, if it was there and publicly, by the way, voiced back at the beginning of march, well, here it is serious, and we, and we know exactly what the information was about... but the americans would never tell the russians that ivan ivanovich pupkin was preparing

something there, he lives there, and they, because from this you can understand how and why the americans know so much, so i think the americans firstly told their own through the embassy, ​​keep in mind there will be trouble there, and secondly they told the russians: listen, you focus on idols, there indeed, things have been said, this is the trail and this, i am talking about this, well... but how, where, where do they cross the border , do they already live in russia, because what i read there, these guys have been living there for a long time, do they listen to that preacher or another preacher there, in short, a lot, but now really from this, from the specifics to the generality, what do you think, mr. erdogan, the president of turkey, said that turkey is ready to cooperate with moscow in the fight against terror. to what extent the civilized world will be able

to work with russia in the fight against terror, well , because terror is a danger everywhere, everyone is not they love terrorists, well, but russia is exactly terror, it is the personification of it, it is state terror, it is political terror, it is presidential terror, if you like, and here is such a moment that, well, on the one hand, we have to catch terrorists, on the other hand ... there is no trust in russia and moscow and putin, what do you think about this? i think, i remember, let's say, the times when the americans and the russians tried to reset relations on... for example, when obama came, became president, even they called it a reset there, that's right one of the key themes that was unifying was the theme of the fight against terrorism, and they all spoke there, both from the american side and from the russian side, they started just that we need to join forces to fight

terrorists , well, plus nuclear disarmament, that is, these are two two topics around which they tried to somehow find... points of contact, but again, the context has changed radically, that is, really what russia is doing, and in the context of constant daily terror in ukrainian cities and our citizens, it definitely does not give reasons and opportunities for democratic countries to build some strategies to fight terrorism with this country, but what should be understood is that this attention now, which... will be and is to russia in view of what happened, for many other countries, it can refocus or shift the emphasis in the context of the russian-ukrainian war, this is dangerous, by the way, and here you need to understand how russia will use it in the future, because now you can, mr. bohdan, sorry, you

rule out the possibility decrease in intensity contacts between... moscow and hamas , and the taliban, and the houthis, and so on and the like, well, if only to show that we, that we are not so bad, we, we, we now do not invite every six months or every month hamas or the taliban visit us, but once every six months, and we show the americans that we are also civilized, they will say so, the russians think to themselves, do you believe in the possibility of reducing the intensity of these contacts? i'm not, i'm not in favor of mixing everything together in one heap, because even the taliban and this needle are now opposing forces in afghanistan, that is, who is interested, and now many have begun to be interested, then all these contexts are very different, so russia will continue, for example,

to build one or another communication or cooperation with those who will oppose western countries. i am convinced of this, and the fact that this whole story is with different organizations, there are salafis, and wahhabis, and there, there is a very wide spectrum, then i would still not combine it all together, because the contexts are really very serious , this organization is a branch, it is one, one of the few that is in afghanistan, now against the background of the fact that the americans withdrew their troops and left, the taliban is trying to show... at least a little civilized side of afghanistan, so that some foreigners would come there, some investments would be made, that is, they are now increasing their influence, let's say, and there are even skirmishes and purges from the taliban in relation to this branch organization, because they understand that it is dangerous to also give them the opportunity to further

spread their influence directly, and this is only a part of ... what is specificity, and here it is still necessary to pay attention to it first of all. there is still a minute left, literally, mr. bohdan, that is , no luck, it was not possible to establish good relations with idil in moscow, precisely because he is generally so disconnected from everyone and from hamas, more terrorist than hamas, than the taliban , than the houthis, than everyone else, i understand correctly, i think that they did not treat themselves with... as a goal, that is, the russians, they also do not build such relations with everyone, so to speak, of cooperation, that is, there is you, with whom they already have been trying for a long time fight, because the russian federation, it also has many ethnic groups and religious streams of islam, and there are also some serious extremist organizations that

in some places are trying to implement something in the terrorist dimension, actually. here i would, i would not connect these things together. thank you very much, bohdan ferens, expert, international candidate of political sciences. now i will just inform you that the next kyiv security forum has taken place, we know that it takes place there once a year and discusses important topics, and we offer you simply the speech of marina budzheryn, a researcher at harvard university and at the kyiv security council just in time. forum, she will speak for quite a long time, but it is interesting, i recommend it to everyone, and then there will be more advertising, and then we will meet again and talk a little about the economy, the balkans. that's all, and now the speech of maryana budzharyn, a researcher at harvard university, at the kyiv security forum. our panel will focus on

negotiation issues. negotiations in context are ongoing. war, i think we can end it quickly our conversation, if we are honest in our assessments and opinions, but for us this is a good opportunity to open up, to resolve issues, we heard and still hear calls for negotiations. the chairman of the munich conference, just before the start of our conference, mentioned something like minsk-3, not so long ago we heard the words

of the pope about the courage of ukraine to raise the white flag, for some reason he meant ukraine, not russia, one way or another, so we let's talk about negotiations. such a time will come, what will be the conditions, what will be the prerequisites, conditions, even to initiate such changes. i will turn to ambassador walker, who joined us online, chose to participate in the first phase of the negotiations, after the first phase of the war. what words of wisdom did you give us after the first round of negotiations, what would you say? thank you. it is a pity that i cannot

join you in kyiv. by the way, i was in the capital. two weeks ago, i am now in lithuania and i am addressing the local parliamentarians. there are two ways to start negotiations. smart things, first, the goal itself. i have always thought that negotiations should be carried out in some way rules first, know what you want. it is important, before you sit down at the negotiating table, what you want to achieve. the second is what the opposing side wants. it's not always what they say, you have to know for yourself what they're trying to do. achieve and third, change the very atmosphere of the negotiations, what are the realities on the battlefield, what are the realities on the battlefield,

information warfare, fourth, do not think that you will achieve the result, first, maybe if you even achieved your goal without an agreement, you have already won , and fifth, maybe you really need to... evaluate what you are reached, one must always remain alert. right now, at that stage, it all boils down to the third point i mentioned: changing the general atmosphere. my experience from 17 to 19 years suggests that negotiations come first, and this applies to today's situation. this is an aspect of making the world... clearly understand that ukraine wants peace, that ukraine is a victim of aggression, that russia is an aggressor that

is trying to get here through a war of aggression, and that russia-ukraine has no plans to seize russian territory. that way clarity is very important, for example. at the first briefing, when i was the special representative of the us government for ukraine, i showed my colleagues a map of ukraine. and i invented such an acronym for the english ngca. and i asked people, what do you think these letters mean? i told them that these are territories that are not under the control of the ukrainian state. i told them it was only a descriptive translation. it really means the territories occupied by russia. the acronym means nothing. these words of territories not under ukrainian

control are empty. words, a fact is a fact, this territory that is occupied and controlled by russia, the first thing you can achieve is clarity, the second is the mobilization of world opinion. today, there are many countries that are waiting, they say, it is far away, russia may be the aggressor, ukraine may be the victim, but what does it have to do with us. starting negotiations in a format where many countries are just watching from afar or acting as mediators will help you mobilize public opinion. public opinion must understand that in fact russia has violated international rules, international norms regarding genocide, rules of war and so on,

you can. to build such a global opinion. the third is that it is possible to combine the position of ukraine, its goals to connect them with two points of the un charter. the president of ukraine speaks very well and eloquently. he emphasizes that the ukrainian position is fully inscribed in international law. he has the right to it and we must use it, we must talk about it clearly and openly. i also talked about this in the just war system, the just war doctrine. what are we just mentioned the words to the pope. the pope is said to say: "ukraine must gather courage and raise the white flag." it is not about this courage. he says.

talking about a peaceful future, it will bring good to all parties, it is about proportionality. russia has grossly violated all the rules of a just war. the catholic church must clearly and unequivocally state and demand that russia stop this war of aggression. so, to use negotiations as a means of promoting the idea that russia is violating. fundamental international agreements, and also contributes to ukrainian aid to victory, and the last question, what if, if russia left ukraine, what would happen if peace came, when russia leaves ukrainian territory, these ideas must be defeated, repeated, if you succeed here , then you... you people

should think about a positive future, lose this idea, if russia would end the war today and withdraw from ukrainian territory. i understand that the audience gathered today is quite authoritative, i will be happy to listen to my colleagues our panel. thank you, ambassador walker, for describing the possibilities so clearly. at this stage and in this case, what seems important to me is to convey the idea to the world public, the idea that ukraine can win. so, the negotiations begin from the position that ukraine is facing a huge, strong enemy. perhaps it is necessary to stop today before ukraine loses even more people, but...

you heard colleagues in the previous panel who said: russia is opposed by the world public, which is stronger, but the russian soldiers seven to one at the front. ms. olena dzerkal, i would like to hear your opinion regarding the negotiations, the key points that, in the end, should especially be the subject of consideration. "i have a lot of experience in negotiations with the russians, it's a pity, but i have to say that all acceptable methods of negotiations with the russians have no reality, you're not talking to representatives, you're talking to putin, this team you're talking to only embodies him."