friends officially take the position that they do not encourage strikes on russia and do not know about them, so in principle no one will comment on this to you, and by the way, i do not rule out that something like this conversation, or something similar, may arise after of this terrorist attack in the suburbs of moscow, since the actions there in... the territory may in this reality cause a different response, in which the stakes will be raised, but this does not mean that the conversation turns into pressure, but whether there was such a conversation, it i can neither confirm nor deny, as they say, thank you, mr. pavle, pavlo klimkin, diplomat, minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2014-2019 , and now let's talk about energy. i

am with mykhailo gonchar, an expert in energy and security relations, the president of the strategy 21 global studies center. congratulations , mr. mykhailo, good evening, and let's start with an assessment of, i would say, the blows to ukrainian energy that were inflicted these days , all the more so in ukrenergo they say that these are more strategically dangerous actions than even attacks on ukrainian of energy in the winter of 2022-2023, good. to pay attention to one thing: if the most powerful blow in the previous annual season of 22-23 came on november 23 , 22, then the power system blacked out, so in a few hours it was possible to restore operation, but nevertheless the fact took place . now. the unified energy system of ukraine

withstood this blow, despite the fact that the damage was very serious. well, of course, you can say that now was not the winter peak of consumption, january is a month when the consequences could be anywhere more serious but even in november of the 22nd year, there was still not the peak of winter consumption. therefore, in principle, i would say that the advantage is that the system has survived. so we can see that kharkiv and kharkiv oblast have still not recovered to a large extent, energy consumption has not been restored, there are only local, well , generators are working and some local work is being done to restore it, and in the end, in the rest of the regions that suffered, where the energy objects were damaged, power consumption is mostly restored, so one way or another... again

, quite high resistance is demonstrated energy system of ukraine, and this is an important point. as for the situation related to dniproges, of course it is problematic, and because it is a powerful gs, the most powerful in the dnipro cascade, and about 1.6 gvv, there are one and a half hundred nuclear power units of standard, and this is maneuvering power, it fell out, just important to us this shunting power, such shunting power we have thermal generation and hydro generation, and therefore, in principle, this just means that the blow was delivered systematically from the point of view of unbalancing the energy system as a whole, and in particular, to carry out strikes that, according to the enemy's design , should have turned off the energy supply for our main industrial area, it is conditionally like this... the rov district, where

our main industrial centers are located, the same dnipro, zaporizhzhia, kryvyi rih, and so on. well, as you can see, it didn’t work, although the destruction is certainly serious, mr. mykhailo, but we simply somehow omit that in fact, the night before it was attacked, that’s how large-scale our energy is, there was also a very large-scale shelling, which was concentrated on the ukrainian the capital many who monitor the russian federation's ability to stockpile missiles and reload them into strategic bombers were surprised that they did not pause. don't you think that the russians now, well, they will actually force or try to force us to cover, to force us to cover our energy facilities and distract us from some other important targets for them in order to... that understanding that actually

our air defense capabilities are absolutely not infinite , well, that's how we do it, it's just that it's not reported, sobto anti-flood powerfully. they do not stand still, they are constantly in motion, because if they stop somewhere, they are destroyed. let's recall the recent incident with the patriots. therefore , they are constantly on the move, and this is the norm. then, if, in fact, there is nothing surprising in the fact that on the 21st there was a massive attack on kyiv, and on the 22nd, on other targets outside kyiv. if. to recall october 10-11, so in 22nd there was a somewhat similar situation, the 10th strike and the 11th strike , that's why it's basically, well, we can say that it's already such a proven tactic, that is, the first

the attack of the carrier is concentrated, the other is dispersed, because the enemy, well, in this case, from the point of view of the attacking side, we should... so to speak, again be concentrated on the fact that there will be a second strike on kyiv, and they did it completely to another, but this suggests that in fact, so to speak, it is on the table of the command of the aerospace forces, this russia, this scenario has been lying around for a long time, it 's just that they obviously had other priorities, and then decided on this time to strike in view of the fact that... before that it is sufficiently systematic and they systematically attacked the defense and industrial infrastructure of the same dnipro region. but the question arises as to how ready they are for some new ecological disasters, this is also a very important point, i think. well, for them, there is no

question there, let's say, if there is an ecological disaster on the territory of ukraine, well... they will not accept it very much in this regard, the example of the kakhovskaya hpp, what happened, but again, i have been focusing attention recently on the fact that it is incorrect to compare what happened with the dam kakhovskaya hess, and the shelling that took place along the dniprohes, and kakhovskaya, the kakhovskaya hess dam was blown up, destroyed because of it, because of... bringing the appropriate amount of explosives there, that is tons, if not tens of tons, and laying them there so that there engineering mining was carried out, taking into account what the dniproges dam is, first of all

, the scale of these and both hydrotechnical structures are completely different, and taking into account the fact that the warhead of any... any missile, even the most powerful one, which are used now g222, it’s only 960 kg, so to speak , with the help of a missile strike, to destroy a hydroelectric dam such as in zaporizhzhia, dnipro-hes, well , it’s impossible, you really need to control it, put tens of tons of explosives there, at least, and then it will be an effect that has occurred twice in history. in the 41st and 43rd years, because some such, well, of course, you can hypothetically imagine that ah, a few bomber regiments of the russian aviation with powerful bombs like there fab3 tons, will

bombard this dam for some for a long time, but of course, our opposing defense will not give them such an opportunity, huh. they will be destroyed much earlier than they will come to the line of bombing, so if the fact that such information about a possible ecological catastrophe as a result of russian strikes began to be dispersed, this is precisely also an element of such an accompanying information and propaganda operation aimed at sowing panic , and nervousness in ukrainian society, well, corresponding moods. now let's talk a little about russian energy: another oil refinery was hit, this time kuibyshivskyi, and we are talking about today, before that there was a series, and already 10% of russian

oil refining capacities are actually paralyzed due to the activities of the defense forces of ukraine. tell me, please, mr. mykhailo, is it possible, first of all, or has it already resulted? to the corresponding effect in russia itself, and whether it can somehow affect the prices of oil, oil in the world, the behavior of the relevant organizations, ala opec. and in general, can it provoke any suf? well, look, what it destroys russia's critical energy infrastructure, in this case , oil refining, that's right, and this is already recognized by everyone, both our friends and our enemies, but when it comes to the fact that the alleged ukrainian strikes on russian oil refining are screwed... there is a price for oil to the world market, this is absolute manipulation, first of all, it

is not the same and not the same at all, the crude oil market and the oil products market, the gasoline market and the diesel market are also not the same thing, so in principle , well, no one pours crude oil into car tanks, but users of crude oil, consumers are oil refineries. so when we talk about the fact that the price of oil has increased due to the ukrainian strikes, well, that's just pulled by the ears, the price of oil, it really increased for a while, although, by the way, these days it is decreasing somewhat, but this is a manifestation of the inability of the western coalition to curb the houthis, and the activities of the houthis themselves also contribute to the increase in oil prices, since the traditional oil traffic... through there babelmandeb, the red sea, suez, is practically blocked, and the traffic is now in

bypassing the african continent is accordingly a more expensive, longer, more expensive route, and this is reflected in the price of oil , besides, if we take the american market, and the oil product market, then again, there are seasonal repairs of oil refineries, maybe , i ... i suppose, this is my hypothesis, because traditionally the oil magnates, american, they are more inclined to the republicans than to the democrats, maybe someone is putting these plants earlier for repair there, so that there really is some kind of local shortage and dissatisfaction with the increase in the price of gasoline, but again, if you look at the increases that are taking place there, they are quite insignificant, so you can't say that the price of gasoline in the united states somehow suddenly jumped up. moreover, the united states

last year set a record for production and refining, crude oil production and refining, respectively, it is the number one oil producer in the world. saudi arabia and russia still have to reach out and reach out to them. therefore, if certain things take place here manipulation, and accordingly. on the basis of these manipulations, as it were, an appeal allegedly to the ukrainian side not to do what it is doing, it is meant to strike at the russian oil refinery, nothing like that, just the strike of this night, it confirms the correctness of the course, we must act systematically and consistently, and actually speaking, this is the boomerang that came back to the russians, because if we remember what they did in the 22nd year. and when blitz-krig kyiv failed in 3 days, they began to systematically destroy ours

fuel infrastructures, oil depots, and oil refineries in kremenchug, in total there were seven powerful flights, and drones flew cruise missiles there, well, not only drones, that is why they are now getting a response, mr. mykhailo, thank you for this comment, mykhailo gonchar, energy expert and... security relations, the president of the strategy 21 center for global studies joined our broadcast, in just a few moments vitaly portnikov and i will return to the topic of the incident and the terrorist attack in the crocus city hall in the moscow suburbs, what this will lead to internally of the russian federation itself and whether putin will use it for a war with ukraine, this will not be our only topic, i think that mr. vitaly has many reflections on many. events of the current week, be saturday's political club.

exclusively on the air of our channel, congratulations friends, on the air. club on espresso tv channel. the most relevant topics of the week. russia's war against ukraine, the war in the middle east, the crisis on the border between ukraine and poland. topics that resonate in our society. drone attack on kyiv and other cities of ukraine, drone attacks on moscow and other cities of russia. analysis of the processes that change the country and each of us. the country has get the right to start negotiations on joining the eu. vitaly portnikov and the guests of the project: we are bored, because there is nothing to fight about, let's have a good time, they help us understand the present and predict the future. a second trump presidency will be terrible for the world. a project for those who care and think. political club. every sunday at 20:10 at

espresso. channel espresso and ukrainian pen present the project of their own names with myroslava barch a series of conversations with ukrainian and western intellectuals who analyze and comment on the most relevant social debates. we will find out exactly what news the guests of the project will analyze this week and who will be the guest of the studio this sunday. undoubtedly, the topics will be relevant, the guests - special. proper names with myroslava barchuk. sunday: 17:10 at espresso. we continue. portnikov and we are talking about the most important events, well, while vladimir putin was receiving greetings from many actually leaders and the civilized world, what is important, and his close partners, something happened in the crocus city hall that should have actually put

a question before the russians, as far as i'm concerned, but i don't know them, you and i talked about it a while ago. and why did you not save our father , we voted for you, how is this possible, that is, we see that terrorism is raising its head despite the fact that putin, a fighter against terrorism, one of the brightest in recent decades, has been re -elected as president, well, here it really arises the question is how exactly such a request can be from the population, or on the contrary it is shown to the population instability, so that it is clear that putin, who has just been elected president, is not in vain and now he will start leading. order, because uh, i want to remind you of joseph stalin's famous thesis that the class struggle intensifies as socialism is built, and many people understood when stalin made this thesis what that even meant, then realized what it meant, that you can shoot and repress anyone you want in any number, because people just hoped that we are building socialism, we

have fewer and fewer enemies, everything is revealed more and more, so you can't feel safe, i have to... tell you that i covered the most horrific terrorist attacks in russia, in moscow, when i was working as that correspondent, and it was always absolutely obvious to me that this situation looked like a strange symbiosis of terrorists and special services, and that it was never possible to understand several things, as now, by the way, here is this terrorist attack, it is really organized by people, i... who want to achieve something, is it organized by russian special services, or yes, even more interesting, what is this terrorist attack organized by these people who want to achieve something, it was generally known to the russian special services, they specifically allowed it to take place, or they did not know about something, or you can ask the question like this: maybe some

part of the russian intelligence services did not know something, and some part knew and decided that with this terrorist attack and... in this way she could question the competence of her competitors, let's say how eternal this competition between the federal security service and the main intelligence agency is, and when there were terrorist attacks during the chechen war, then i am mature i always had to meet with some of my sources who explained to me that this could be a real terrorist attack, and this is part of the struggle between the main intelligence directorate of the general staff and the federal security service, because... to put the federal security service in an awkward position in front of the leadership , because these people, whom they planned to carry out in this terrorist attack, are connected to the fsb, and these people are connected to the game, those. people are controlled here, and these people are controlled there, and when you begin to understand all this, studying the biographies, i specifically i sat then, for months i studied all the biographies of all the participants in the events in order to understand where

they came from, why they suddenly appeared, who was a field commander, who was some kind of minister, and from this side, signalmen, it is necessary to sit down and draw these communication diagrams all over your hands, and then eventually you understand something, but not completely, and here, too , it's the same situation, because we really don't really understand what happened, in principle, if they get the message from americans, they can't help but understand, they not idiots, at least not putin himself, huh, but at least people a little lower that this can happen, if they are told that this is an imminent terrorist attack, they can in principle create conditions under which there will be no mass measures of any kind. uh, for a certain time, they are capable of this , to invent something, to blow something up somewhere without victims, and now that sobyanin has announced that there will be

no concerts and so on, so do it, but without a real terrorist attack, well, yes, that is, you you understand that they can do whatever they want, organize some kind of attack by some group fictional militants on some object, some shootout, no one died, or someone died there. well, it doesn't matter, it 's five people, and in connection with this, we are canceling mass events there until april 1 or may 1 and studying at universities, and during this time we conduct prevention, well, they don't did, so they were basically interested in this terrorist act, so now we will have to understand why we will only understand this sometimes, what they will do after this terrorist act, how they want to act. in new conditions, it is the second such a moment, the third moment, they may be interested in creating an appropriate atmosphere in society. i always remember the atmosphere

after the terrorist attacks in moscow, it changed the mood of society very much. we are not even talking about the political consequences, which have also always been significant. it's about how, in principle, people... people began to react beyond what their political views were, i remember the nordost, such a feeling of absolute helplessness, it's specifically like that, a person can't even control himself anymore, you cover this story here you are standing, here is the street, here is the theater center, people are sitting there, well, basically the same as you, they can't get out of there, they can be killed, you could be in their place, you could go to a concert. ugh, well, it's a difficult feeling, people start to want it all to end soon, so that they don't live in this feeling, or the explosions of houses, the feeling

of danger, absolutely terrible, how much you don't convince yourself logically, you remember, we were there talking to colleagues, i told you, listen, well, it happens in sleeping areas, we we understand who is doing it, it cannot be done without the control of the fsb, they will blow up precisely the sleeping areas of moscow, not the center. in principle, we are completely safe here , but you convince yourself, and you think that it is not enough , we cannot be sure, we are not members of the fsb board there, who will know for sure that our house will not be blown up, and that, and you want it all to end because you go to bed you don't know if you're going to wake up it's hard to live that long and they capitalize on it they know it because that's basically what they work with psychologists of these mass moods, it is not done just like that, they receive a report based on... analysis of the mood as a result of certain actions. the second such moment, the third moment, which is connected with the fact that in principle they always

rely on historical experience, these are not their inventions. in the russian empire, the security department worked with terrorists. ugh. we, in principle , live with you in a city that was one of the capitals of russian terror. but it wasn't just terror, it was. terror, they are by most people they were monitored, they had agents in militant organizations, in the end yevnoazev, the head of the militant organization of the seriv party, he was an agent of the third branch, one of the main ones, or roman malinovskyi, one of the deputies of the state duma of the bolshevik party, who was also involved in some of their military activities there actions, was an agent of the third security branch, they all cooperated, uh, and they could specifically dictate to them certain acts of terrorism against certain individuals or. against certain structures, which in turn provoked the reaction of the population, this there was an internal struggle at the court of nicholas ii, then the soviet regime, well, they,

first of all, they controlled all this. throughout this whole flywheel of repressions, then already in the new conditions they used accusations of terrorism to fight against competitors, but we understand in principle that in the soviet era in the 1930s, in fact, all these opposition movements and even in the bolshevik the parties were overcome, but every time trials of the trotskyist terrorist center, the right-wing trotskyist terrorist center took place here, terrorists everywhere, saboteurs everywhere, they will create. created a feeling of panic among the population, because imagine , well, you live here, you live in some house , so to speak, your neighbors are taken away all the time, they come at night as terrorists, it is not just that they take away enemies, they are terrorists, they were planning something blow up, maybe your own apartment, they live here and live here and there and there, my god, comrade stalin, protect me, if i am not arrested, then i just have to dream until my arrest, to be protected,

here ... such a situation, that we are in this house we live, we want to be protected, in the end we can be the ones who need to be arrested to protect others, great atmosphere, putin, well, paranoia, things like that, they create paranoia, because if we are at a distance from moscow, and we live with these anxieties and problems of war, but imagine that you are now in moscow, here you are in this... step , you have been to all these halls 10 times, went to concerts, you understand that now everything has become dangerous, you are not you know if it will happen next time, you see how they act special services, ugh, no way, you understand that no one will save you, and you don’t know how you can, or do you need to, change your lifestyle, who are these people who walk next to you on the streets, this is still a ukrainian trace , so they can be slavs,

everything was so simple for you before. this wrong-looking caucasian man, he is most likely a terrorist, we need to go the other way, how can ukrainians protect themselves, this could be here, your neighbor could be an agent of the main intelligence department of the ministry of defense of ukraine, horror, and that is , an atmosphere of unhealthy paranoia and mistrust of each other is created in society, that is, not just an external enemy, but a total distrust of each other. it seems that the chairman of this committee on defense of the state duma, or someone else, that there is nothing wrong if you talk about the suspicious actions of your neighbors, it was already heard on the screens today, you see, you are actually reconstructing their intentions, so in fact this is what they are saying, how it can be used, in principle, as the assassination of serhii kirov by yosip stabin, well, before the murder of kirov, stalin did not even think about such

possibilities that opened up before him. about mass repressions, about the fact that several former members of the party's politburo could be shot there at once, these people were political opponents, but for the country they were, well, how can you say, well, they were people who could not be destroyed, because they were symbols revolutions, well, they made a mistake, they lost power, but you can't raise a hand against them, after the 34th year. no problems anymore there was no, you could kill anyone, stalin killed the relatives of his own members of the politburo, imprisoned their wives, these people came, then continued to work, like the wife of the chairman of the presidium of the verkhovna rada of the soviet union, kalinin, sat in prison, he continues to perform his duties "the ties of the nominal head of the state, well, is it the same or, after the war, the wife of the minister of foreign affairs of the soviet union, molotov, she was in prison, in a camp, he continued

to work, to go through the fields." bureau, as if nothing is happening, it is special absolutely, you know, the taste of power, this is something that few people can afford, well, even dictators, well, not every dictator can put the wife of his deputy in prison and without any risk to himself, but he will still say: oh, thank you, well, she was probably wrong , so, well, here is the essence of this whole situation, and this is of course a huge problem for... our understanding of the consequences of this whole process, this is a really serious problem, i would like to ask a clarifying question, it is interesting, you assumed , what if, let's say, the united states and partners warned, but warned a certain part of the fsb there, let's say , someone is not ahead of them.