president, what should we expect from this visit, because, if i am not mistaken, the presidents have mostly recently been talking on the sidelines of some international events at which they were present, and of course on the phone, well, i think that recep tayyip erdogan needs a certain restarting relations with the states, although i think they can take a break, but i can see that he wants to go there already at the peak, that is, his political power, now the important thing is the local elections, and that is to win the big cities in the opposition, and based on this you can go, well, since he has already said that these are his deadlines and he will no longer run for president, that is, now he can think about the eternal, about the future, about this state of turkish-american relations, and

erdoğan wants to go down in history as a person who will carry out some huge act, that is, such a political act, and i think that a dialogue between biden and erdogan can be built around this, if you want to be asked whether it can be a ukrainian issue, you believe so, mr. igor , that president erdoğan will not be swamped anymore? well, i am i think that most likely. yes but of course never say never with ertogan yes i mean we me i i understand you your skepticism no it's not skepticism it's just trying to figure out how, who, who will he leave turkish language, this is the same situation, he has a question, and, well, i think he will find someone, i think that we will stop now, just for this we need to choose, win the local elections in order to make sure that the future of his there will be a receiver, er...

sure, but if not, then no, then he will remain, there is actually another interesting aspect here after all, the participation of both america and turkey in the north atlantic alliance, in the alliance itself, at least from the ukrainian point of view , it very often seems to us that these are such two poles, as well as the vision of each state of its role in nato and nato in general. the roles of nato in the world can also be different, and here is the eve of the actual american elections, where donald trump actually has a chance to win, who is quite skeptical about the prospects of america's participation in nato, at least he declares it rhetorically. what can it be about in this context erdoğan's visit to the states? well, there is a sufficient range of issues, yes, starting with bilateral relations, ending with the war... in the middle east and

the syrian issue, the kurdish issue, the war in ukraine, the future of nato, that is, in fact, in fact, turkey wants to have such an exclusive right or some separate position that is recognized by other members of the alliance, taking into account its provisions. take into account her involvement in middle eastern affairs, and apparently erdogan wants to choose such a right for himself for his country. ugh. if we talk about how it will generally be fought back now the situation in the middle east to develop, you do not see additional threats due to the fact that the united states, for the first time, i think in recent history, did not veto a security council resolution. the un, regarding the ceasefire, is so clear. now the conflict between israel and

the united states is all that, something that we have never discussed at all, right? such a thing, well, how did we, we, we warned about it, i warned about it in a special article in the mirror of the week, that such a thing could happen, yes, and there were too many signals, that is, actually, this is for me was absolutely not a surprise, well, there were several such resolutions, so to speak, in the recent ten-year history, remember the resolution on... israeli settlements in the occupied territories, then the americans also abstained, it was under obama, but what about this resolution , this position in general, it is clear that this resolution is of such a non-binding character, but it is such a concrete signal that the americans are categorically against the plans that netanyahu was building, and netanyahu's style of behavior, as mr. no, you can't do it anymore. washington, after

such, as you can see, sharp escapades from bokuga, on the part of netanyahu, they still agreed that negotiations should be held. and soften the tone, and so it seems that things have moved on, and at least there is a chance that the gas war can stop, and it will be to everyone's benefit. thank you, mr. igor, for your comments, igor simovolos, director of the center for middle eastern studies, joined the saturday political club. now let's take a short break in the second part of our conversation, as usual we talk with vitaly portnikov about the main thing. laughter, physical activity, sneezing. even during such a small load, urinary incontinence can make itself felt. feminost uro helped me. thanks to the natural ingredients, feminost uuro helps

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of our channel, greetings friends, on the air politclub on the espresso tv channel, the most relevant topics of the week: russia's war on ukraine, war in the middle east, the crisis on the border between ukraine and poland. topics that resonate in our society. drone attack on kyiv and other cities of ukraine, drone attacks on moscow and other russian cities. analysis of the processes that change the country and each of us. the country should get the right to start negotiations on joining the eu. vitaly portnikov and guests of the project. we are bored because there is nothing to fight about, let's invent, help to understand the present and predict the future, a second trump presidency will be terrible for the world. project for those who care and think politclub. every sunday at 20:10 at espresso.

the premium sponsor of the national team represents. united by football together are stronger. we continue the saturday polyclub of khrystyna yatskev and vitaly portnikov. well, mr. vitaly, last time we talked about the reasons the consequences of what happened in the moscow region, crocos city hol. for this week. many nuances have changed around this whole story, but the most important thing has not changed, in principle, putin’s blaming ukraine for what happened, trying to put us in the same line as terrorist organizations, and possibly appealing to the world, look

who you support, and they in connection and cooperation with idol, they create what they create on the territory of our country, how effectively they succeed in this farce, in your opinion, i think, it does not succeed at all. perhaps such an idea existed at the first stages of history with this terrorist act, but even in the domestic context of russia, it does not work very well, because ... that russians see on their screens persons, so to speak, of a completely different origin, and to understand how all this is connected with ukraine, especially without any concrete facts, when representatives of the russian special services just talk about it, but you know, when they accused sintsov, his comrades and so on of terrorist acts there, they at least showed specific people who did something there, prepared some terrorist acts and sabotage, here they can't even present a single person, they can't present any evidence, besides, it is absolutely... obvious that the position of the russians in this story , they look quite conditional, in connection with

the warnings of the american and british special services, that there were no real such threats from the side of ukraine, but there was a threat of a terrorist act, american intelligence, british public, they ignored it, and you remember that just a few days before the terrorist act, president putin said that it was aimed at inciting panic, panic among the citizens of the russian federation. well, it seems to me that this is rather a demonstration of unprofessionalism, the russian special services either unknowingly or knowingly, precisely in order to blame ukraine, missed this terrorist act. so. have you heard these words of the minister of foreign affairs of russia? sergei lavrov's codification, which he said in an interview with the izvestia newspaper, that

statements by western politicians about non-involvement ukrainians are becoming obsessive about the terrorist act of the city hol district, huh, how is that? this means that they actually fail to achieve any other result. it is an absolutely obvious thing, which i think understood that they are very unhappy with their own attempt. despite the fact that... bortnikov and patroshev, the role of lukashenka is also very interesting, well, a man, in fact, openly says that they went to ukraine only because they could not come through our border, well, that is, signals from oleksandr hryhorovych about the fact that russia is bluffing about the participation of ukraine is also quite clear, why is he doing this? i think that at first he just wanted to show how seriously guarded his government is. and the territory across the belarusian-russian border, which is completely

unclear at all, where it is located, yes, is it absolutely accurate, there is no real border there, of course, in this situation, it can be clearly said that he thought about what should to show how everything is fine with him, no terrorist will pass, well, this did not coincide with the statements that sounded from russian leaders, they simply did not coordinate, if you want this whole , uh, their common line, or maybe they really didn’t need it, maybe it’s so, you know , they think that everything they say will be perceived as they want, well, if it is perceived the way they want, then you can not delay for a very long time, not make any information plans, not agree with lukashenka, well, or they know they agreed on their level, in russian, and even there with lukashenka about to say something, he is not inside. russian speaker, let him speak whatever, this is a good question, because really in the first hours after this

terrorist act, when it became known that the russians accused these terrorists of going to the ukrainian borders, that they detained them near the ukrainian border, someone just spoke from the observers, well, it is strange, why would terrorists go to the most guarded border in russia, even if you imagine that they have someone waiting for them there, not waiting, but you have to go through it. the border could absolutely calmly pass through the interception, which window, in such a situation, but they in such a situation, when the border plan, which is not guarded by anyone, the border of russia and belarus, and they, too, by the way, has already been launched, this was a logical remark, because then lukashenko said that they were going there, that's all, they didn't speak would be detained on the way, i think that we need to monitor what is happening around all the investigations, according to the versions of both the russian ... investigation, and what other countries,

civilized countries, will say about this. i would like to return to the topic of the last interview of the president volodymyr zelenskyi's ukraine, in my opinion, it is extremely important, in some moments it is somewhat different from what we could see and hear before. in particular, they touched on the issue of possible negotiations with the russian federation with volodymyr. putin, or did i read it that way, and you will not agree with me now, what is it about? president zelensky suggested that the court cannot act in relation to all territories of the ukrainian state. then the military scenario, what if we talk about the return of the territories that were occupied by the russian federation in 2022, then already there there may be some negotiations or at least some contacts about the return of the territories previously occupied by russia. to what extent does this change the previous strategy, at least officially

announced by the ukrainian state. it seems to me that president zelensky did not say that. he said that president putin, in the event that ukraine manages to reach the conditional line of 2022, will want to talk, will want to be ready for negotiations, because he says that putin no longer wants any negotiations, he does not want to talk with anyone talk, says zelensky, but if we reach the line of 2022, then he will want his position in russia to weaken, and he will want victory, well, that's all. it was, it was not said that we would like negotiations in such a situation, it was said about putin's position, and it seems to me that these words, they are primarily addressed not to the ukrainian, but to the american audience, that is, president zelensky is trying to talk to the congress in situations where we have already talked about it in detail, when congress will begin to consider again the issue of aid to ukraine. i

will tell you right away that all these words do not affect me at all, everything is very simple in the congress. or the republicans will decide that the lack of aid to ukraine undermines donald trump's position and creates some problems for them in the campaign, and then they will vote for aid in one form or another. they have no problem voting for aid, it is enough to put this issue before the house of representatives, and if it is a new law, and not one that has already been passed by the senate, for consideration of the senate, if they. will decide that it is not in their best interest, and so will , say, donald trump. you can give 144 interviews, no one will notice them. it's not like in the republican establishment, it's not just a matter of public opinion. the republican establishment does not understand what is happening, they understand perfectly well, but they are just trying to understand how what

is happening helps or hinders them to win. this is the main priority. and they will deal with ukraine after the elections, if they will win them, if they do not win, then there will be a zone of responsibility for biden, this is not their problem either, that is, they do not risk anything from their point of view, if it is possible to prove the opposite, perhaps the interview is aimed at this, to prove the opposite, it is possible to appeal to the voters of these same republicans, well, that's all, all that can be done, that's why zelensky is basically saying to those who believe that this war can be... end the negotiations, uh, if you don't give us weapons, you give us less opportunities hope for some negotiations, because putin does not want a transition, but if you give us weapons, if we liberate at least part of our territory, then putin may want negotiations, if you bet on it, and then we will decide to conduct these negotiations with you negotiations or not, and if

he does not want a transition, then what is the point of all these theses, that you say that there is a need to end the war at the negotiating table, you know my position, i do not think at all that all these lines, i said this in 2022, and this is completely conditional, so what line on february 24, 2022, it now exists only in our imagination, because the russians have built fortifications further than this line goes, it is true, and now we can talk about this line as such a conventional line of contact between russia. in the event that this line is not, so to speak, extended by, say, these offensive actions that the russians are now trying to carry out, that is, it is, conditionally speaking, the line of russian fortifications, and there must be a line of ukrainian fortifications, and on this lines can stop armies if they have there is no strength to break through these lines

of fortifications, if there are not enough fortifications on one side or the other, then the army has... the opportunity to break through and establish a new front line there, that is the whole story, there is no other story, you can invent lines 22 year, you can imagine the state border line of 1991, this idea of ​​ours is absolutely consistent with international law, but again, this does not mean that it is perceived by the russians as some kind of line on which something should end, i repeat again, that... for russian of the federation, neither the line on february 24 , 1000, 2022, nor the line on... august 24, 1991 are considered to be the lines of any state border of ukraine or demarcation with ukraine

. which is a possible conditional line from the point of view of the russians, as of today, it is the border with ukraine along the administrative borders of the donetsk, luhansk, kherson, and zaporizhzhia regions, that's it... the complete line of the state border between russia and ukraine so far, ago that if the russians seize another village in another region , hold a referendum there, they will consider the line of the state border with ukraine to be no other region, mykolaiv or kharkiv, this is all a delusion, i don't even want to discuss this delusion, but the question in because we are negotiating with people who live in this world, just a simple simple example, you are dealing with a person who lives in this world. his schizophrenic delusions, this person considers himself napoleon bonaparte, which he is not, vladimir putin or vladimir zelensky, which she is not, or your

father, let's say, who knows how you live, and this is not your father, this is a stranger, whom you just saw on the street, on the street, if this person is in a psychiatric hospital, takes the appropriate course of treatment, she is watched by paramedics, you can be ironic about it, think that some person, but... sick, it's a pity, she considers herself the emperor of france, russia, austria-hungary, it doesn't matter what. if this person is not in a lunatic asylum, she is is in his office in the kremlin, he has a huge army, special services, a nuclear button, a population that considers his policy to be absolutely correct, votes for it, or simply does not pay attention, then you can , of course, declare this person crazy as much as you like. but your survival and your destiny depends on this person and on his view of the world around him, and if you want to negotiate with this person, you must be aware that his view of the world

is fundamentally different from yours, and she will be willing to endure as much as it takes and pay as much as it takes to make her vision of the world, which is different from reality, become a reality, even if this means destroying people, or destroying some there, relatively speaking objects russia does all this, putin does all this, he does not see any problems in this. so what does that mean? it means the simple thing that the idea that if we occupy some territory occupied by the russians automatically means that putin wants to negotiate with us, it may not work. ugh. and you will have to be ready for that too. both here and in the west, they are constantly looking for some formula, somewhere that line. border or clashes that putin will be ready to talk about, can i answer this question for you? the line after which putin will be ready

for negotiations with ukraine is called the line of depletion of russian resources. if russia understands that they do not have sufficient military, technical, demographic and economic potential to wage war with ukraine. they initiate negotiations from whatever position they happen to be in are and will be ready to sacrifice any territories there, which they are absolutely not interested in, they are interested in the destruction of ukraine itself and any other interests, for the sake of this, to end this war as soon as the demographic, economic, social and technical resource of the russian state, you can say absolutely clearly: that the war will end within a week, some naryshkin patrushev will go to washington, not to kyiv, agree on this with the americans,

will remain only the minister of defense of ukraine and russia to meet and sign a cease-fire agreement, then the process of political settlement, discussion of the issue of what to do with the occupied territories , etc., will begin, until the moment this resource is available. the war will continue. now the question is, how much of this resource do the russians have? if this resource is enough for a year, for a year and a half, the war will continue for a year and a half. if this resource will be enough for 10-15 years and we will have enough resources to confront russia with the help of the european union, of the united states, the war will continue for 10-15 years without any hope of its end. and you have to be clearly aware of it. because the whole... recipe for the end of war, it is there, and it was talked about in february 2022, such wars end when the resources of the parties are exhausted, or one of

the sides, or... to both sides, no other recipe than exhaustion the demographic, economic, military and technical potential to end such wars does not exist in nature. do the heads of state decide when the war will end? no, because they are are simply faced with the fact, they come to them, relatively speaking, in our version to president putin, and say: mr. president, we have such a situation that we do not have shells. ugh , we have no more missiles, we have no more people to mobilize , we have to stop paying state employees , we have to stop paying pensioners, we have no oil revenues, we have no gas revenues, if we fight for a few more months, your government, mr. president is in danger, because the country, the country is expected to collapse, then president putin raises pick up the phone, joe. or donald, or maybe

it could be the next president, maybe after this term, it will be there in 2029, it doesn’t matter what the name of the new american president will be, maybe sergey will come to you, he has something to say, and the american one, well, let him come , or maybe we will just meet somewhere in abu dhabi, we hear from washington, but if there is no such thing, if putin is with... some nebiulina shaygu and someone else, and they say that the currency is stable, we get money for oil, there are people for another five years , we are still holding on, well, what is he doing, what is he doing, what is he risking, mr. vitaly, you and i talked about the fact that there is a high probability that putin very often receives dubious information from his circle that the people who serve the regime

are not interested. in providing objective data to the russian president, it is true, but when there is a situation related to the collapse, they will find an opportunity to inform him about it, just the situation, they will not be afraid, because if they do not inform him, just this collapse will come, ugh, well, i'm the question here, or you are you inform that you are doing something together, or you run away to washington without permission, or you will simply be killed and imprisoned there, ugh, a collapse is brewing, you understand, comrade of the moscow crowd. who will not have bread and heat there, but again, we are talking about a completely empirical situation, which currently does not exist, does not exist, does not exist, but i am simply explaining what, what is the real formula for ending the war, we are always discussing this issue, the formula and all the time we are trying to find some kind of line, in the 22nd year, as the president said now, putin will want negotiations on the line of the year 22, the state border

of the year 91, putin will want... negotiations on the line of the year 991 in the fall of the year 22, we said that it is enough to take back the only regional center that they captured, kherson, and they will ready, ready, here, but the truth is that the possibility of negotiations should not be connected with territorial gains or losses, and the possibility of negotiations should simply be connected with a sufficient number of resources for conducting a war each. from the sides, if we have our strength is that we will continue to help the west, that the west is set there for 10-15 years of further assistance to ukraine, so for the ukrainian state these are serious problems, it is demographic, economic, political, social exhaustion, we must understand that in 10-15 years we will not come out of the war stronger, we will be able to survive as a state, but it will be a completely different state than the one we lived in in 2022, in general, we

will no longer believe in the ukraine we lived in in 2022. never on february 24, 2022 , this ukraine died under the blows of russian troops and we can only to build a new ukrainian state , a post-war ukraine, no matter when this construction begins in the 20s, 30s, 21st century, we must do everything so that this new ukraine, which will emerge from the terrible, exhausting war, is strong and successful state for those citizens of ukraine who will choose to stay on its territory, it must also be understood that it is not at all. not everyone who lives today in the ukrainian region will be a state, many will simply not live to see this new state, many will want to leave it, but we will fight for everyone a citizen who will choose to live in such a dangerous post-war situation, in any case, in any case, if the event helps ukraine, if ukraine is the fortress of those who actually protect the civilized world from the possible ambitions of russia.