went to protect er, i wanted to say the country , but not yet not the country, er, and this work, it’s actually just like that, again we take an ancient image, this is the angel of death, who with dignity gives her the opportunity transition for someone who fought for his country to go through this path, it is interesting that, in fact, he is... in general, there is a lot about the angel of death, about the river styx, he has a lot of insight into reflections, and he also has such a story that what is the end is the beginning, and it is precisely this transition that is important for for this beginning, he had a different energy, a different intensity, and it is significant that he dressed the angel of death not just in the usual wings.

and he gave him hutsul clothes, if actually just hutsul clothing, which flutters like wings behind, behind this angel, and as if it gives honor to the special feature, because angels do not wear clothes, and hutsul clothes are even more so, but this is as such a certain connection the connection between respect for this dignity, which this warrior has in himself. and this is dignity, as a connection with the roots for which you stood, and then these are the roots is in transition, and it is being built further, being built into the future life, both of the one who died, and of the following generations. listen, this means that he had a very good understanding of world culture and art, the karakyu academy of arts gave him this education, or was there something else where he got this knowledge, huh? there is an interesting moment that ivan

golubovsky's memoirs, there is actually his biographer, we must say that this is his biographer, a person who is his friend, yes, well, it is almost like a brother, that is, like vangoga was his brother, who he was worried about him, and there was actually ivan golubovsky, who was just like the named brother, and in these memories, he mentions odessa, as novakivsky, as he talks about odessa, and this ode, it is not even the krakow academy, it odessa in... in which he spent almost all the money he earned on books, ugh, and there is one of the scenes when, that means, he is portraying, portraying the very family to which i invited them, and in the process they consider what else he has there, and there is a lakoon, and actually just what he says that i am investigating, i study mythology, i study michelangelo, i study the renaissance era itself and try to... reproduce and

capture this art through getting to know it and learning to follow it, and this was important for him even before the krakow academy. since you have already talked about odessa, i will now ask you about studying in odessa and studying in krakow. you know, i was interested in the fact that my studies in odessa were actually paid for by a local forestry engineer. and i understand that this is from podillia, yes, who obviously saw the talent in this child, and this child, 16-year-old, yes, he sends him to study in odesa, to the workshop of pelip klymenko, you are actually talking about this family, yes, no, no, the family was different, he lived in another family in odesa, well, that’s the story, what about that , when he went to odessa, he was already studying. and when he came to odessa, he already

came with certain knowledge, with a certain artistic level, and klymenko accepted him as someone who could earn for himself, and therefore he painted portraits in order to earn a living. yes, of course, that is, it is not anymore, he was not such a simple child, a child already i'm not ready at all, and i'm still curious about the scholarship to study in krakow. also highlighted the bzhozovsky family, these are the employers of his father, who was a forester, so in this family, that is, in both situations, i remembered, you know, that little myron frank, frank's story, yes, when, when someone notices when the child is lucky, and someone notices the talent and gives it a way, and yes, we return the same with shevchenko, but we are there with many, let's say. yes,

if you go through a lot of names of ukrainian sculpture, history repeated itself and that it was an exceptional talent of a child with not a lot out there. of that family, which was so exceptionally manifested and strengthened by charisma or stubbornness, in my case it was precisely his stubbornness, because he told his father the forester, who had already prepared his destiny for him in a young age , he had a vision when he met god, and god told him that he, well, you will be an artist, and he, as they say, there if it's like a bird, it 's like there knock-knock-knock, knock-knock-knock, and he his dad this... actually just persuaded, and in in the end they let him go to odessa, they just let him go to study, uh, and then he came back because dad lost his job, he had to go to work as a clerk, ah, but then, when the situation leveled out a little, right there they sent him to odesa, then they returned

back, and a teacher from kraków came to the brzezowskis from kraków, i don't remember whether from the kraków academy, but from kraków, and he just saw talent... oleksi and he too once time and time again he persuaded, it was also a very difficult decision, he persuaded the brzezowskis to give him a scholarship to send him to the krakow academy, and then in krakow he begins a conflict of identities, as far as i understand, so please tell me about it, well , i would say that it was not so much a conflict as a choice, although you can.. . the fact is that there is actually a situation about a moment because of a conflict, that is , because of a confrontation, when brzezowski was actually given a scholarship, then when he was accepted, they looked at him and bet on a very promising polish artist who could stand next to the names of the great

polish artists. he is the only one from the ukrainian pleiad who graduated from the krakow academy with a gold scholarship, which gave him the right to his own. to study at any university in europe, and he absolutely had brilliant teachers there, yes, and that, but the scholarship was exactly the same with full maintenance, there was only one right, one rule, and the rule sounded like this, you become a polish artist, and at this moment i understand that they overwrought, overwrought, and because until a certain period he even signed paintings with two... we, sometimes he could in ukrainian, sometimes i could sign in polish , that is, this game, she, she was, well , my great-grandmother, she was a polish drinker, she has polish, polish blood, polish roots, and, uh, that is, i think it was very about the fact that he was probably overwhelmed

by this desire to make him exactly a polish artist, and he at this moment, he made his own decision to resist and... and most likely, it was his talent and this ability to be himself, this connection with identity, played a role in his partnership with sheptytskyi and further, precisely in those projects that they created together, so they met even before 1923, yes, that is, on the 23rd, sheptytskyi offered him to found a school. even earlier, earlier, it’s just that this school was already founded in 1923, since they met , please tell me, and now i don’t remember the date, but they met earlier precisely because of golubovsky, they got to know each other through golubovsky, because golubovsky was

a lawyer , yes, he is a lawyer, yes, he was a lawyer, a lawyer, and actually, just from they met oleksya in a very strange way, because when he graduated from the academy... he ended up near krakow, i don't know how, there bucha, relatively speaking, he moved from kyiv to bucha, and in bucha he was actually just lying there, lay sick, and one doctor was asked to stop by and take a look, and this doctor, he just saw his paintings and realized that he must be put in, and he put him on his feet, and the doctor turned out to be the husband of golobovsky's sister . and so they became friends, and so they were afterwards he, in fact, through golobovskyi, they ended up in the cedar chambers of sheplitskyi, which were in the carpathians, because it was very fashionable in the carpathians at that time to go to the country, in fact, they had such and such country houses, and

they met, discussed, there very they were in a very interesting , intelligent environment, and actually just as if they were there with cheplitsky for the first time... i saw each other , then when there was a big personal exhibition of nowakivskyi in kraków, sheptytsky was actually at this exhibition, he saw it this exhibition. and uh, uh, i think it's just him, he thought to himself that when we actually lost the treaty of versailles, after the treaty of versailles, ukraine was not able to gain its separate independence, yes, let me remind you that it was in us the collapse of the empire, while poland was able to somehow do it, in fact , ukraine was unable to prove its right to an independent country, there is such a version. that sheptytsky actually understood that there was not enough support, in poland there was support on the nobility, in

ukraine there was not enough support on the elite, there were not enough highly educated people, who were not just highly educated, but who had wealth and could influence society enough, and that is, what we are actually facing now, history is very much repeating itself, and he then for... thought, what is needed to make a school that would essentially be not just like an art academy, but one that would, well, a person of the renaissance era, i would say so, create from those people who could come and take on this choice, to be ukrainians , i am impressed that sheplitskyi was how much, how deeply he understood this need, that he invested money in it. so he allocated scholarships - scholarships for later, when this school had already emerged, yes, he invested

scholarships in children, there were many children, how many people studied there, about 100, about 100 people, and he the carpathians, in fact, their trips to the carpathians , sheptytsky also financed this, it is more systematic, but when they say that there is a sheptytsky patron, well, first of all , it is a myth that... shiptytsky was a patron novakivskyi, this was not the case, and secondly, shiptytskyi, in fact, he created systems that could later support art, culture and education, and very often it was the case that it was not his funds, but it was a certain system, which actually helped, well here and there with studies, with trips and so on, and because, for example, when they went out to the plein air, because the plein air... is when artists go out into nature and paint, they paint right in nature . novakivskyi brought

this fashion to lviv, he took his students to nature, because well, if you are making a photographic story, then you can sit there in the privacy of your room and draw. he said that if you want, they laughed, that they all started paying social tax, voluntary social tax, and this voluntary social tax - that was what helped. it was not enough for all this to grow up, the ukrainian secret university is a phenomenal story of an institution that relied solely on the payments of people like us as volunteer payments, yes, who were scattered there, it is an amazing story about the ukrainian secret university, unfortunately, we don't have much time to talk about it, but if you could in a few words, i'm sure that many people don't know about the ukrainian secret university, if you could tell literally a few... words to say, because i understand that at the ukrainian secret university , novakivskyi also headed the department, so

painting, so it is called, so in fact, in fact, the story was such that at first he became a professor of the kyiv academy of arts, and as a professor of the kyiv academy of arts, he became a co-founder of the ukrainian secret university, yes, that is, he teaches here, what years are these, come on, let's say what it is, what year it is at the kyiv academy, the kyiv academy - that's pymonenko right there, that's right, malevich will come to teach there soon , there is precisely cubofuturism, all these processes are taking place, the ukrainian revolution and everything, and novakivskyi is coming there, he did not come, as far as i understand, he did not come, but there was a very close exchange, they came to lviv, and to him, for example, there later. in his school, even in a secret university, it was also in his school, then they actually taught just a part of those people who

came from central ukraine, from one side to the other, yes, well, for example, i was not surprised that voronny taught screenwriting at this school art, and petro kholodnyi, he came to read his own sacred art, ugh, and relationships, it seems to me that this is also an understudied story, how much these relationships in general influenced the way the partnership between the ukrainian people's republic and the zunr was built, but i am sure that this was, relations of kyivska the academy and the secret university, and the secret university and this environment in general and... mixed, mixed, that which was not just galicia, or just kharkov or just kyiv, but it was these mixed environments that allowed them to communicate with each other and to build human, human good relations. let's finish with the secret university, it was, it was really secret, yes, hundreds and hundreds of people studied there, the polish authorities persecuted, and

yet it functioned, and yet, and yet it was, yes , well, let's start with the fact... that it actually started with the fact that right after the treaty of versailles , the rules for minorities there were changed, the ukrainian minority was in lviv, such a very minority and also a rather passive minority, and in fact the lviv university was forbidden to teach in ukrainian language, and the students protested, then the professor supported her, because they were also forbidden to teach the ukrainian language. and it was essentially as an act of protest, if so briefly, an act of protest, when they singled out separately and created specifically for contributions, voluntary voluntary, civic contributions, they made this university , they hid for several years in a row, they were really, they were followed and followed by the local police there, actually

followed, and there were inspections, and this was also in different places and in apartments and in and... and in the novakivskyi school, which was actually just a part of this university, which was located in the building that is now opposite the sabbath of the yura cathedral, where there is now a memorial museum, and meetings and meetings were actually held there, as and learning, and this place was given there in order for this university to exist, it's amazing to me, it's just a long story about about a secret university and about how or if there are any memories that it was for oleks novakivskyi, that is, how, how he talked about it , i didn’t find out what it was about the secret university, i can’t say , but the fact that it was very important for him, he was, he saw himself as a guide for young people, according to sheptytskyi, from his reviews, i understand that he was not was just a guide,

he was a role model, that is, he is a person, who as a self-made man, he... was able to make himself and he was able to be ukrainian, he chose to be ukrainian, he was able to be influential, the media in all of europe wrote about him at that time, he was actually successful financially, ugh, and eh well, he was a creator, he was an artist, and to be a successful ukrainian artist before him was almost unrealistic. he essentially set the creative industry, the beginning of the creative industry, because he showed that you can make money not only on paintings, but you can develop there on postcards, on caricatures, and this is what they did with the students, this is actually one story, another story, when after the plein airs they returned, they held small exhibitions in

the cities, and you could come and choose the paintings you want there, and so in a way, they were engaged in educational activities. in small towns so that, well, those who belong to the auto business also raise their level a little, well, of beauty and aesthetics, understanding of what aestheticism is. tell me, please, which of the famous artists graduated from the novakivska school, who, who we we know, uh, uh, well, i'll just name a few names there, and, this, we can say, mir, this, roman selsky, and, actually, just... he is not so direct that he studied for a long time , but he started with the fact that he went through corrections, and then he stayed, svyatoslav gordynskyi, this is a very famous artist, writer and poet, eh, and this is also such a vivid story of how the youth actually developed around novakivskyi

this environment, because it was not only about art, and we can say, although i know that there is a controversial issue, but yakiv hnizdovsky, he is one of the most famous ukrainian artists in the american field, his paintings were hung in the white house, and he was also an art researcher and an artist, and myron lev- levinskyi, that's us exactly, well, he is also a very famous artist who developed how... well, independent, independent like that in painting, very interesting, bright, such a path he had and very successful, edward kozak, it 's actually just interesting that he took this line. caricature and this is what he created very qualitatively and vykoga, i now think, you you are counting, i think, how many

of these people ended up abroad, yes, that is, how many ukraine has lost, not as mets, but as its citizens who have, but how strong the school should have been and how strong this impulse to be ukrainian, that all . they left the signature of a ukrainian for them, they left the signature of a ukrainian, that is, there is an american, of ukrainian origin, a canadian of ukrainian origin, and i will also ask you , you mentioned that the fact that sheptytsky supported novakivskyi is a myth, but if i understand correctly, that this villa is wonderful, where, where later there was a museum, and there are, yes, newcomers. who did sheptytskiy present to novakivskyi? no, not true, right? god, what a beautiful story , there are many, many myths, well, first of all, i don’t say

don’t support, i wouldn’t say don’t support, i would from the point of view finance, support, the villa, actually, exactly, this villa, it was purchased , indeed, by sheptytskyi, but also donated, but not to novakivskyi, but donated to the ukrainian museum. national, which he created, yes, of course, and novakivskyi paid for the school, well , that is, for this premises for the school, and for he paid for the accommodation that was there next to him, he paid for it with his paintings, and this was one of the reasons why he had a very close relationship with the museum, and he never once in his life had a personal exhibition in lviv, never once, because exactly... tsytskyi , who was invited by sheptytskyi to become the director of the museum, he tried, well, as an enterprising man, he tried to constantly lower the price of paintings,

and since novakivskyi, he knew that he was in favor of it, well, that is, it was his opportunity to keep the price and to live for it, and in addition to living, well, in maintaining the school as well, because very often it happened that those who came there, they came, well, let's put it this way. often it was a story when novakivskyi fed and provided, and there were, there were, it was different, and therefore it was important for him, and his, his paintings were expensive, and he kept this brand of expensive paintings, but at the same time, if he did not hold this mark of an expensive painting, then his students would also not have become those successful ones and would not have been able to feel that the painting can be sold expensively. listen, what does it mean when diana kolychko says that novakivskyi is the most expensive ukrainian... artist, what does she mean, but actually, she is exactly what she means, that in his time, what he put up as the price for a painting, she really

was very high, she was very high, i want an important topic that you and i have not touched yet, but which is terribly interesting to me, this is your relationship with your great-grandfather, so it is not just for you, it is your initiative. and in general your interest and your work, it's not simple, it's your family history. when, when in you started a relationship with novakivskyi, how did you find out about it, and in general , do you have any personal, do you have any family, yes , stories about him, or all that you know is mostly from the biography, actually already written, or do you have any his family stories about him, ah, well, first of all, it must be said that a lot of information was hidden and classified, because sheptytsky, as

i said, was not a patron, he was very friendly with novakivsky to the extent that they , and so much so that when novakivsky was gone, that ptytsky actually adopted his children, ugh, and... and for the soviet authorities, it was simply impossible, and that's why i think that he hid a large amount of information precisely so that he could not, well, let's say, preserve it there us children and those who grew up in this family, well, who was hiding, let's say, yours, your parents, or your parents' parents, well... well, we knew, well, about who the great-grandfather was, we knew, because i grew up among my great-grandfather's paintings, but you also have to realize that the museum is a memorial, it was

created by me. grandfather with a very interesting story, because he first wrote to unesco and convinced unesco that they should make a year of novakivskyi, and then he returned to the lviv authorities and said that, well, look, the year of novakivskyi in unesco should somehow be highlighted there as 100 years of novakivskyi, and he signed on the fact that he will make the first exhibition and the family will invest in it, that is, in essence, there is a museum, it is he, it is a big contribution. my grandfather's great investment. and so it is clear that behind this story and we, well, there was an understanding of who, as an artist, and what paintings, that he was of great importance for the country, but what importance was not unpacked, not unpacked, and for me in fact, there is also such a story that the second touched so slightly

to to to the history of his... when it happened through my father, who headed the national museum , he headed it in the late 80s, your father is an architect, he is an architect-restorer, and a lot of what tourists see now in lviv, such as a pharmacy, a museum or the actual arsenal, is what he, well, that him, his work, and most of the buildings on the square the market, by the way, my grandfather, he saved part of it. from destruction, because there was an idea of ​​replanning lviv approximately as it was in kyiv in the area of ​​st. michael's cathedral, that is , this is the son of oleksa novakivskyi , this is the son of oleksa novakivskyi, yes, and then, and then already your father, this is the grandson of oleksanskyi, yes, as a grandson, he, he as a grandson, when he became the director of the national museum, he began to establish contacts with the students and give back, that is,

through him, i met. i understood what the school was and who its students were, well, that's right because of him, i started to somehow touch on that, to research it, but unfortunately, his story with the national museum ended very sadly, i would say that he has a very ten-year history if he had a story, we will not expand it much now, but in due to the non -fulfilment of a certain party whim, a case was opened against him, he won the court, but he did not return to the museum... and in fact, it is very much like this, what years is it, what year, and well, this is not actually the beginning of independence, but with independence we are the beginning we know, just like fate chornovola, we understand that the appearance of a person who was in favor of independence, well, there is an interesting point that, for example, he is my father , who was the person who ensured that the national

museum was in that room. there used to be a museum of lenin near the opera house, now everyone knows that it is a national museum, yes, but when dad raised this issue, everyone in lviv was afraid to solve it, but fate turned out like this, simply mythical and mystical, that gorbachev , who was supposed to go there to one city, ended up in lviv, rais maximin had to to entertain, and my father would have taken her to the foundations and after that they had given permission for... the premises of the lenin museum to be transferred to this project, but now you will not read about my father anywhere, precisely because he was spent from history, because of this history, because of this conflict, there was a conflict with the transfer of the icons, he refused to transfer the icons, because too fast transfer would mean destruction, and he did not want to do it, but someone really needed to do them.