the population, because people are really nervous, there are really incomprehensible activities on the borders, both sumy region and chernihiv region, there are constant ones in kharkov, well, you see, in different places, no one knows how the scenario will develop, that is, it is clear that this is a war , but it is necessary to find in our internal means of communication somehow to orient it correctly in relation to the further development of events, i , for example, do not see from my experience that the statements that are now... are being heard about the fatal consequences of this year and that putin is already a counteroffensive and kyiv will be captured, i'll do it, well i honestly don't see how it can be done in these new conditions, but at the same time i see that we really have the issue of arranging the second and third lines of defense, we have the issue of the internal mood of society, it is not in the best shape now and... and here really

, you see, there are a lot of disturbances, then there is a personnel decision, someone is moving somewhere, but we have not seen such serious institutional strengthening yet, so the time has come to use all the resources of the country now, if it is in the parliament, i i say all, that is, so if you delay it, if to divide society, i am the government , and the opposition is sitting there, because there is a civil society that needs to be controlled, that is where we will decide everything, that is how we can play the game, so now the task of the ukrainian government of president zelenskyi is not only to rearrange some pawns here and there on the rain, but it is necessary to think about how to protect the king, let's say so, if we are talking about the head of the state, and this can be done only with the advantage of additional figures, so it seems to me that internal threats are underestimated in this regard. and the internal

situation, there are 10,000 handcuffs, which they are planning to buy the police, i don’t know what they are needed for, i think that it is not necessary to explain to people right away what you are doing, why, how, different opinions immediately begin here, that is why now the unity of society, the production of weapons, the military industry for industrial rails, what is being done, and however, i do not touch the mobilization, i do not want to, it is separate. question , but i just want to say one thing, the option of a long-term war of attrition is not for ukraine, it is only for collective defense, if they want attrition, if they do not want threats, well, we understand that, we must today, and don’t ignore all these moments with missiles in poland, deploy a joint air defense system over the border, nato must also wake up like european countries, that is, in principle, nothing of the sort er... new

is happening, but the pressure in the coming months is serious, i i think the country will have opportunities, but now we have to endure it, thank you, thank you, valeriy chaly, diplomat, former ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america, we were in touch now until the middle east, before the terrorist danger, ihor simyvalos , director of the center of middle eastern studies, congratulations, mr. igor, congratulations, congratulations, colleagues, well , after the terrorist act in krasny. in the crocos city hall concert center near moscow, there were many conspiracy theories, including from president putin, he turned out to be the main conspiracy theorist of these days, but we can say that we are aware that this is a classic act of terrorism carried out by the islamic state of khorasan, and that then what is the organization, why is it capable of carrying out such serious terrorist attacks, because it is associated not only with this story, but also with terrorist attacks at the kabulula airport and with the terrorist attacks near. of the russian embassy in afghanistan and

, by the way, with the terrorist attack near the grave of general suleimani in iran, where many senior representatives of the islamic revolution guards corps were killed, as well as numerous bombings of mosques in kabul and other cities of afghanistan, that is, we can practically say that this organization deployed rather active terrorist activity in afghanistan, and unlike the taliban, which limits its activities. with the borders of afghanistan, it has no borders, they are actively working central asians, diasporas, on the territory of afghanistan, well, that is, the actual population, tajiks and uzbeks, and they also see their own expansion further, actually within the framework of this historical great kharasan, and this organization arises in the 14th year in the frame, as well as

institutionally rises an islamic state, and in this case it does not arise out of nowhere, but relatively speaking, it is a part of al-qaeda, which... simply swears an oath to the new caliph, and at that time it was in baghdad, and accordingly , they aim to create this great the islamic state in accordance with the hadiths and sunnah of the prophet and the like, and what if we talk about this terrorist attack, yes, without a doubt, if it quacks and has wings, then it is a duck, and in this case, there is no doubt that this terrorist organization carried out this terrorist attack , especially since the warnings were in advance, especially since, in principle , the special services of at least several western countries received such

information on communication channels, ugh, and mr. igor, please tell me whether it was just after this happened terrorist attack in crocus city hall, many analysts among ukraine noted that for such an organization as idilka, even more, let's say, even more than the western world, so collective, they hate, so to speak, the wrong muslims, and it is russia's support for the taliban , the support and good friendship of the russian federation with iran, the support of the proxy army, in particular the iranian army, this is exactly what catalyzed these... terrorist attacks, which may continue in the russian federation, because i dilka announces exactly this, that is, in fact, russia underestimated eyes internal misunderstandings or what to even

call it, i don't know, internal conflicts in the muslim world and different readings of the religion of islam in general, well, i think russia actively used these different readings, right? and active cooperation with the shiites, that's why the classic answer, well, in general, in the ukrainian interpretation, i would say idil ha, rather, yes, because it's just an english bureaucracy, you know, yes, of course, the number of muslims, who died at the hands of the islamic state, cannot be compared to representatives of other ethnic groups groups and most of the terrorist attacks and hostilities take place on the territory of the middle east, we can mention here the war in syria and iraq, the terror introduced by the militants of the islamic state in these occupied territories, well, we have already mentioned here the terrorist attacks

against the shiites, and the war against the taliban , that is, in fact, they are an extremely regional and... urban structure that does not see any compromises in front of them, and does not want any compromises, that is, they mobilize their supporters on this very basis, and believe that that this is the only correct, correct option, and in this, against this background, even alkaya look like a kindergarten, although they objectively come from alkaida, ugh, but tell me, mr. igor, in principle... how serious is the danger of terrorist actions in russia in the future, are they able to somehow respond to this situation now? yes, i think that the danger is real, and i think that this organization will at least

try to carry out terrorist acts in order to confirm its, and its, right to a terrorist attack. in crocus, and since i think that them caught off guard by the russians' claim that it was done by someone else, ukrainians or somewhere else, americans, britain, and not the islamic state, that is, they were, to be honest, somewhat surprised, i think the statements that were made, they just indicates that there will be terrorist attacks, and the following ones, although it may be... part of such a raising of the stakes, a game of raising the stakes, and what is also important to note here is that recently we have seen how relations between the taliban and moscow are developing , and precisely the key question of

the security of central asia, security is not the spread of islamism is taking up a lot of time there, so around that... cooperation will continue, but the russians will have to reorient their special services again, now once again, yes, and it will be much harder to do than it was there. say, in the 10s, when they were able to create a more or less effective security system to counter islamism, but then these were specific challenges related to the northern caucasus, for the most part, now the situation is much worse, taking into account the large number of gaystar-baiters, which russians cannot do without they can, and what we see now on the streets of russian cities is growing. xenophobia, attacks, everything else, it can also

actualize the participation of these gas workers' desire to wash away. it also became known that recep tayyip erdogan, the turkish president, will pay a visit to the united states in may. what should we expect from this visit, because, if i'm not mistaken, the presidents mostly talked in the sidelines lately. any international events that they attended, and of course on the phone ? well, i think that recep tayepdoganu a certain reset of relations with the states is necessary, although i think they can take a break, but i saw that he wants to go there already at the peak of his political power, now the important thing is the local elections and... winning the big cities in the opposition, and based on this you can go, well, since

he has already said that these are his deadlines and he will no longer run for president, that is, now he can think about the eternal, about the future, about this state of turkish-american relations, and erdoğan wants to go down in history as a person who will accomplish some huge act, that is, such a political act, and i also think... a dialogue between biden and erdogan can be built around it, if you want to ask whether it can be a ukrainian issue, yes. and do you believe, mr. igor, that president erdogan will not be swamped anymore? well, i think it probably is. but, of course, in the case of erdogan , one never says never. yes, that is, we, i, i, i understand you, your skepticism. no, it's not. skepticism, it's just trying to understand how, for whom, for whom he will leave turkey, that's the same

asking him a question, well, i think he will find someone, and i think that we will stop now, just for this we need to choose, win the local elections in order to make sure that the future of his receiver will be cloudless, but if not , then no, then he will remain, there is actually still an interesting aspect in... the participation of both america and turkey in the north atlantic alliance, in the alliance itself, at least to us from the ukrainian position, it very often seems that these are such two poles , yes, and the vision of each of the states of their role in nato and nato, in general, the roles of nato in the world can also be different, and the day before the actual american elections, where donald trump actually has a chance to win, who is quite... skeptical about the prospects of america's participation in nato, at least rhetorically he is declares in this context, what could

erdogan's visit to the states be about? well, there are enough issues, yes, starting with bilateral relations, ending with the war in the middle east and the issue of syria, the issue of the kurds, the war in ukraine, we... the future of nato, that is, in fact, in fact, turkey wants to have such exclusive right, or some separate position that is recognized by other members of the alliance, given its position, given its involvement in middle eastern affairs, and obviously erdogan wants to choose such a right for himself, for his country. ugh. if we talk about how the situation in the middle east will develop in general now, you do not

see any additional threats here due to the fact that the united states, for the first time, i think in recent history, did not veto a resolution of the un security council on a cease-fire, there is such a clear, now conflict between israel and by the united states, all the things that we never discussed at all, it is true, such a topic, well, how did we, we, we warned about it, i warned about it in a special article in the mirror of the week, that such a thing could happen, yes, and there were signals too many, that is , actually it was not a surprise for me , well, there were several such resolutions, so to speak, in the recent ten-year history, remember the resolution on israeli settlements in the occupied territories, then the americans also abstained, this obama was, but what about this one resolution and this position in general, it is clear that this resolution is of such

a non-binding character, but it is such a concrete signal that the americans are categorically against those plans... that netanyahu was building, and that style of behavior of netanyahu, as mr. washington is no longer satisfied. ah, after such, as you can see, sharp kicks from the bokuh, from netanyahu, they still agreed that it is necessary to conduct negotiations and soften the tone, and therefore it seems that the matter has moved from place to place, and at least there is the odds of that... on abgaz can stop, and it will benefit everyone. thank you, mr. igor, for your comments. ihor samovolos, director of the center for middle eastern studies, joined the saturday political club. now let's take a short break in the second part of our conversation, as we always talk with vitaly portnikov about the main thing. greetings, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda.

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vasyl zima's big broadcast, two hours of broadcast time, two'. hours of your time, two hours to learn about the war and what the world is like, two hours to keep up with economic news and sports news, two hours in the company of favorite presenters, presenters who have become kind to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio, events day in two hours, a big broadcast of vasyl zima, a project for smart and caring people, in the evening for espresso. we continue. saturday polyclub khrystyna yatskev and vitaly portnikov. well, mr. vitaly, last time we talked about the reasons and consequences of what happened in the suburbs of moscow, crocus city hol. during this week, many nuances have changed around this whole story, but the most important thing has not changed. basically, putin is accusing

ukraine of what happened, trying to put us on the same page as terrorist organizations. and it is possible to appeal to the world, look who you support, and they, in connection and cooperation with idols, create what they create on the territory of our country. how effectively do you think they pull off this farce? i think it doesn't work at all. perhaps such an idea existed at the first stages of history with this terrorist act, but even in the internal context of russia, it does not work very well, because russians see on... their screens persons, so to speak, of a completely different origin, and understand what in a way , all this is connected with ukraine, especially without any concrete facts, when representatives of the russian special services just talk about it, but you know, when they accused sintsov, his comrades and so on of terrorist acts there, they at least showed specific people who did something there, prepared some terrorist acts and sabotage, here they can't even

present a single person, they can't present any evidence, besides, it is absolutely obvious that the position... of the russians in this story , they look quite conditional, in connection with the warnings of the american british special services, uh, that there were no real such threats from the side of ukraine, but there was a threat of a terrorist act, american intelligence, british, public, they are ignored, and you remember that just a few days before the terrorist act. president putin said that it was aimed at inciting panic, panic among the citizens of the russian federation. well, it seems to me that this is... rather a demonstration of unprofessionalism, the russian special services either unknowingly or knowingly, precisely in order to blame ukraine, missed this

terrorist act. yes, you have heard these words of the minister of foreign affairs of the russian federation, sergey lavrov, which he said in an interview with the izvestia newspaper, that the statements of the western politicians about ukraine's non-involvement in the terrorist attack on city hall become obsessive. ugh. how is it? means that she actually fails to achieve any other result, this is an absolutely obvious thing, which i think understood that they are very unhappy with their own attempt, despite what bortnikov and patroshev say, very interesting is also the role lukashenka, well, the man actually frankly says that they went to ukraine only because they could not pass through our border . well, that is, signals from alexander hryhorovych that russia is bluffing about ukraine's participation are also quite clear, why is he doing this? i think that at first he just

wanted to show how seriously guarded his own territory is, which is across the belarusian-russian border, which is completely unclear at all, where it is located, and is it absolutely accurate, there is no real border there, of course. in this situation, it can be clearly said that he thought about the fact that it was necessary to show how everything was great with him, no terrorist would pass, well, this did not coincide with by the statements that came from the russian leaders, they simply did not coordinate, if you will, this whole, uh, their common line, or maybe they really didn't need it, maybe it's so, you know, they think that everything they will say, will be perceived as they want. well, if it is perceived the way they want, then it is possible not to delay for a very long time, not to make any information plans, not to agree with lukashenka, well, or they know, they agreed on

their level, in russian, and still talk about something with lukashenka there , he is not the internal russian speaker, let him say whatever he wants, it's a good question, because it was really in the first hours after this terrorist act, when it became known that the russians accused these terrorists of going after ukrainians. borders, that they detained them near the ukrainian border , someone just said from the observers, well , it’s strange, why would terrorists go to the most guarded border in russia, even if you imagine that they have someone waiting for them there , not waiting, but that’s it it is necessary to pass through this border, in such a situation, when it is already launched the interception plan, what a window, in such a situation, and they could absolutely calmly pass through the border, which is not guarded by anyone, the border of russia and belarus, and they too, by the way... this was a logical remark, because then lukashenko said, they were going there, that's all, as if they were detained on the way? i

think that we need to monitor what is happening around all the investigations, the versions of both the russian investigation and what other countries, civilized countries, will say about it. i would like to return to the topic of the last interview of the president of ukraine volodymyr zelenskyi, in my opinion, it is... of course important, in some moments it is somewhat different from what we could see and hear before. in particular, the issue of possible negotiations with the russian federation, with vladimir putin was touched on, or did i read it that way, and you and i now disagree, what is it about? president zelensky suggested that a purely military scenario cannot apply to all territories of the ukrainian state. that if we talk about the return of territories, which were occupied by the russian federation in 2022, then already there,

there may be some negotiations about the return of the territories previously occupied by russia, or at least some contacts, as far as this changes the previous strategy, at least officially announced by the ukrainian state. it seems to me that president zelenskyy did not say that, he said that president putin... in the event that ukraine manages to reach the conditional line of 2022, he will want to talk, he will want to be ready for negotiations, because he says that putin is no longer does not want any negotiations, he does not want to talk to anyone talk, says zelensky, but if we go to the line of 2022, then he will want to, his position in russia will weaken, and he will want to win, ugh, that's all, that was it, that was not said. that we will want negotiations in such a situation, it was said about putin's position, and it seems to me that these words, they are primarily addressed not to the ukrainian, but to the american audience, that is, president

zelenskyy to... talk to the congress in a situation when we are already it was discussed in detail when congress resumed consideration the issue of aid to ukraine. i will tell you right away that all these words do not affect anything. everything is very simple in the congress. or the republicans will decide that the lack of aid to ukraine undermines donald trump's position and creates certain problems for them in the election campaign, and then. they will vote for aid in one form or another, they have no problem voting for aid, it is enough to put this issue before the house of representatives, and if it is a new law, and not one that has already been passed by the senate, for the senate to consider, if they decide it 's not in their best interest, and donald trump, say, thinks so, you can do 144 interviews, nobody will just notice them, that 's not what the republican establishment does.

this is not just a matter of public opinion, in the republican establishment they do not understand what is happening, they understand perfectly well, but they are just trying to understand how what is happening helps or hinders them to win, this is the main priority, and they will deal with ukraine after the elections, if they they will win, if they don't win, then there will be a zone of responsibility for biden, it's not their problem either, that is, they don't risk anything from their point of view, if it is possible to prove the opposite. perhaps the interview is aimed at this, to prove the opposite , it is possible to appeal to the voters of these same republicans, well, that's all, all that can be done, that's why zelensky, by and large, tells those who believe that this war can be ended by negotiations, uh, if you don't give us weapons, you don't give us the chance to hope for some negotiations, because putin does not want a change, but if you give us

weapons... if we free at least a part of our territory, then putin may want negotiations, if you bet on it, and then we will decide with you whether to conduct these negotiations or not. and if he does not want a change, then what is the point in all these theses, that you say that it is necessary to end the war at the table for victory, you know my position, i do not think that all these lines, i said it in 2022, this is still a completely conditional thing, well, what is the line for february 24, 2020, it is now exists only in our imagination, because the russians created fortifications further than this line goes, it is true, and now we can talk about this line as such a conventional line of contact between russia and ukraine, in case this line does not exist, yes so to speak, continued, let's say, by the offensive actions that the russians are now trying to carry out, that is, this is, relatively speaking, a line.

of russian fortifications and there must be a line of ukrainian fortifications, and armies can stop on this line if they do not have the strength to break through these lines fortifications, if there are not enough fortifications on one side or the other, then the army has the ability to break through and establish a new front line there, that is the whole story, there is no other story, you can invent the lines of the 22nd year, you can invent the state line border of 1991, this idea of ​​ours is absolutely consistent with international law, but again, this does not mean that this is perceived by the russians as some kind of line on which something should end, i repeat again that for the russian federation neither the line at 24 e february 10, 2022, no the line on august 24, 1900 of the year

91 is not the line of any state border of ukraine or demarcation with ukraine, it is not considered to be, well, it is just such a fact, it is a fact that simply characterizes the policy of the aggressor, which means that it is possible that there is some kind of conditional line from the point from the point of view of russians today, this is the border with ukraine along the administrative borders of the donetsk, luhansk, kherson, and zaporizhia regions. this is the conventional line of the state border between russia. for now, because if the russians capture another village in some another region, they will hold a referendum there, they will consider the line of the state border with ukraine, another region, mykolaiv or kharkiv, does not have it, it is all a delusion, i do not even want to discuss this delusion, but the question is that we are conducting negotiations with people who live in the world of this, just a simple simple example, you are dealing with a person who lives...